Worthington's Record

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

Norwich

Won: 109
Drawn: 60
Lost: 99

Blackpool

Won: 44
Drawn: 34
Lost: 56

Overall

Won: 153
Drawn: 94
Lost: 155

[streakey 0]

C J F i did ask how many players have been through Norwich during Worhingtons reign. I do not know and you are the man with the all the stats to answer it.Many thanks . S

[chicken 0]

As I have said before - its the draws that have let us down the most.Last season was dissapointing but not a failure - prior to that I think we had a decent reccord. Obviously this season has been both disapointing and a failure in the sence that the overall target was missed but a considerable gap in the end.However whilst questions need to be asked people as you have admitted yourself need to stop looking for new reasons and stick with those provided and ensure that those arguments are well supported so when it doesnt go so well next season you have something cohearent and straight to the point.The stats are a good way of going about things but I would not include Blackpool simply because he WON his contract here after steering us well away from relegation when it was beggining to look well and truly enevetible.Its like looking at your employment reccord and judging your lates job on your last job - it doesnt always match up.When employing him in the first instance it would be a valid argument whether his last job had the credentials to give him the right skills for this job. He was given the job so that question has been answered and is more of a "What if?". On top of that arguing that part of his history against the three seasons that followed you would be beaten hands down everytime. Division 1 survival, play-off final, play-off challenging season (ended with an apology I seem to remember from the whole squad), promotion campaign. How many managers at this level have that reccord over three seasons?I am not saying that on that evidence alone should he be kept - I am merely suggesting that those facts will always negate his previous reccord at Blackpool. And his initial employment is down to Hamilton and not just the board.

[Jim Smith 2,610]

The prem season WAS a failure. It is exactly your type of attitude that is the problem at this club and the reason why unless the current regime have a change of attitude then this club will never realise its potential.

We did not win a single game away from home last season. We got knocked out of the FA cup by a lower division side. We did not register our first win for the best part of three months and we only started playing half decently when Worthy had lost all hope and chucked in the players the fans had wanted to play for the last 3 months to "make sure nobody can complain they were not given a chance."

How anyone can regard relegation as not being a failure is beyond me but that it isn''t regarded as such by a large number of our fans shows how brainwashed we have become with this "little old norwich" rubbish.

We could be and we should be (having been given a great opportunity when we went up) and mid table premiership club.

 

[ZLF 335]

Over the last two seasons we have failed to survive in the prem when it had the lowest surviving points total in years and have then failed to even make the play offs in one of the least competetive championships in years too.  

In neither season did the manager start the season with any conviction around what his best team was or how to get the best out of the players at his disposal - last season it was what 14 games before we got a league win under our belts and this season it was 7 despite having 5 of them at home.  

How much failure does it take for fans to see what an opportunity we have missed over the last two seasons?    

[Mello Yello 2,572]

Even poor old Sunderland managed to squeeze an away win! We couldn''t.......

I re-iterate, if Nigel was at any other club, or even employed as an MD in any other business - with his current mangerial record......he would have been shown the door pronto!

Remember ''Bazzer Skipper'' quoting that Nigel would be here - even if we were in the conference![li]

We are in for a rough ride next season........because there are at least 8 sides that have potential to win the Championship - and unfortunately I think we are not one of them! [:|] ;~( 

[Ken Aries 0]

It goes without saying, that if the likes of Bolton, Blackburn, Portsmouth, Charlton and Fulham can all establish themselves in the Premiership, then NCFC should be capable of the same. I am pretty sure that Norwich City FC is a bigger club than all the aforementioned, so if they can do it, so can we!

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="streakey"]C J F i did ask how many players have been through Norwich during Worhingtons reign. I do not know and you are the man with the all the stats to answer it.Many thanks . S[/quote]

I will work it out later today.  Just quite busy at the moment.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Jim Smith"]

The prem season WAS a failure. It is exactly your type of attitude that is the problem at this club and the reason why unless the current regime have a change of attitude then this club will never realise its potential.

We did not win a single game away from home last season. We got knocked out of the FA cup by a lower division side. We did not register our first win for the best part of three months and we only started playing half decently when Worthy had lost all hope and chucked in the players the fans had wanted to play for the last 3 months to "make sure nobody can complain they were not given a chance."

How anyone can regard relegation as not being a failure is beyond me but that it isn''t regarded as such by a large number of our fans shows how brainwashed we have become with this "little old norwich" rubbish.

We could be and we should be (having been given a great opportunity when we went up) and mid table premiership club.

 

[/quote]My sort of attitude? Thats grand.Again I suppose by problem you refer to Worthington - again I have not suggested that there is not a problem. I just dont think last season was as big a failure as some people are making out.They tend to think that we should have done a West Ham or a Wigan. Well unfortunately as mentioned many times before and it was made very clear and so far as my memory takes me most fans accepted that promotion to the premiership was to break us even and secure a future for this club. During that season I couldnt give a monkeys about the FA or the hoojimaflip cup because to be quite frank I would trade both of those to stay in the prem.As for not playing the best team untill he had given up again where is the evidence? If you are talking about Safri and Helveg - the two most debatable omissions to the team - both were injured for periods and Safri actually did get games before his extended run but he was not up to scratch as he hasnt been some games this season. In my opinion Edworthy seemed far better at right back than Helveg.Shackel would be the only exception to that rule. Where again I would have liked that risk to be taken a little earlier. Otherwise most players had their chance and simply did not impress.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="stephen nobbs"]It goes without saying, that if the likes of Bolton, Blackburn, Portsmouth, Charlton and Fulham can all establish themselves in the Premiership, then NCFC should be capable of the same. I am pretty sure that Norwich City FC is a bigger club than all the aforementioned, so if they can do it, so can we![/quote]I would defenitely agree but it is interesting to point out that out of those five all five had much firmer financial backing and three didn''t do it on the first attempt.The reality here is that good things dont always come instantly. I am not saying that I am happy to wait ten years - I am just saying that I think its a bit harsh that people expected us to go from a club £20million+ in debt to a club established midtable in the premiership in two seasons.Sure there is being ambitious and then there is being over ambitious. After promotion I would have liked them to set out some sort of plan to try and achieve that status in five years. That now leaves three.I may add here that this does not mean the same manager either but a target for the club as a whole.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="chicken"][

My sort of attitude? Thats grand.

Again I suppose by problem you refer to Worthington - again I have not suggested that there is not a problem. I just dont think last season was as big a failure as some people are making out.

They tend to think that we should have done a West Ham or a Wigan. Well unfortunately as mentioned many times before and it was made very clear and so far as my memory takes me most fans accepted that promotion to the premiership was to break us even and secure a future for this club. During that season I couldnt give a monkeys about the FA or the hoojimaflip cup because to be quite frank I would trade both of those to stay in the prem.

As for not playing the best team untill he had given up again where is the evidence? If you are talking about Safri and Helveg - the two most debatable omissions to the team - both were injured for periods and Safri actually did get games before his extended run but he was not up to scratch as he hasnt been some games this season. In my opinion Edworthy seemed far better at right back than Helveg.

Shackel would be the only exception to that rule. Where again I would have liked that risk to be taken a little earlier. Otherwise most players had their chance and simply did not impress.

[/quote]

IT WAS A FAILURE CHICKEN....

WE HAD THE SHORTEST DEFENSE IN PREMIERSHIP HISTORY FOR SOME TIME.

WE DIDNT WIN A SINGLE AWAY GAME

SAFRI NOT UP TO SCRATCH SOMETIMES?? HOLTY WAS NEVER UP TO SCRATCH - we didnt win a SINGLE game he started NOT ONE!!!!!!!!!

EVERY TEAM GETTING 33 POINTS IN THE HISTORY OF THE TOP FLIGHT HAS BEEN RELEGATED!! THAT IS A FAILURE

IF EDDY IS A FAR BETTER RIGHT BACK THAN HELVEG WHY IS HE NOT HERE NOW??  WHY DID WE LET HIM GO FOR NOTHING!!  we would only give him 1 year that was an idiotic decision!!!

HOLTY PLAYS ALMOST ALL THE GAMES (so worthy thought he was doing alright) then swapped to division 1??

DUE to southampton, Palace and WBA being terrible the premiership was there for the taking we FAILED.

[ZLF 335]

[quote user="chicken"]
As for not playing the best team untill he had given up again where is the evidence?
[/quote]

The quote came from Nigel himself - I cant do it verbatim but it went to the effect that he played the likes of Helveg, Shacks & Safri against Man U not because he thought they were the best players but because he did not want players moaning that they were not given a chance in the prem.

It was only AFTER those changes that anything near the ''best'' 11 was played and we gave ourselves a chance of avoiding relegation.  Before that ''decision'' we were dead and buried.

I agree the quote does not directly mention ''giving up'' but it was certainly a last throw of the dice from a managers who had stuck with his chosen tactics/side for too long without recognising the faults fans had been pointing out for 4+ months.

[Jim Smith 2,610]

Chicken

Yes I think the laid back attitude amongsttoo many fans who have been pursuaded that we were "punching above our weight" in the premiership has held us back and the biggest problem is that Delia and MWJ seem to genuinely believe that. We were doomed from the start with the attitude we had to that season. the manager never came under any pressure to sort out the results and I lost count of the timeds where he excused results by just saying the opposition had "too much premiership quality." As far as I was concerned promotion to the premiership was an opportunity to restablish the club in the top flight again and we failed miserably to take that opportunity. It was a fialure whichever way you dress it up. However that failure may just about have been excusable if Worthy had learnt from it. He was just about getting it right towards the end of the prem season and then he went and unecessarily decimated the squad in the summer. Unfortunately since then we have gone backwars so quickly it is untrue.

 

[alex_ncfc 686]

[quote user="Jim Smith"]

Chicken

Yes I think the laid back attitude amongsttoo many fans who have been pursuaded that we were "punching above our weight" in the premiership has held us back and the biggest problem is that Delia and MWJ seem to genuinely believe that. We were doomed from the start with the attitude we had to that season. the manager never came under any pressure to sort out the results and I lost count of the timeds where he excused results by just saying the opposition had "too much premiership quality." As far as I was concerned promotion to the premiership was an opportunity to restablish the club in the top flight again and we failed miserably to take that opportunity. It was a fialure whichever way you dress it up. However that failure may just about have been excusable if Worthy had learnt from it. He was just about getting it right towards the end of the prem season and then he went and unecessarily decimated the squad in the summer. Unfortunately since then we have gone backwars so quickly it is untrue.

 

[/quote]

I couldn''t have put any of your posts better, JS. How can anyone honestly call last season a success? It stinks of lack of ambition, and it''s fans like chicken''s attitude, just prepared to accept whatever happens at the club (of course this is what Delia and MWJ want) that mean we will never get anywhere! Last season was ABYSMAL. We didn''t win for 3 months! We didn''t record ONE SINGLE away victory! We conceded the most goals. And, like you said, there was NEVER the sligtest bit of pressure on Worthington. Never ever was his job in question. Look at West Brom, at the time - things weren''t happening - they sacked Megson, in October I believe. Yet, ''little old Norwich'' same old same old, prepared to just go down without a fight. Face it, we were down before the season started, therefore last season was 100% a failure, and how the bloody hell Worthington is still in a job is totally bemusing, as any other manager would have been sacked, not only in the prem season, but definitely after the shocking season we have just endured. Sometimes I wonder if people actually do want this club to move forward?

[In Dubious Battle 0]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

I agree the quote does not directly mention ''giving up'' but it was certainly a last throw of the dice from a managers who had stuck with his chosen tactics/side for too long without recognising the faults fans had been pointing out for 4+ months.

[/quote]Since when has any manager of any club in the history of football picked the team based on what the fans think? There are many fans out there with valid informed intelligent views but then there are also ''the idiots'' I don''t think managers listen to fans views in general it''s not something unique to worthington.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="chicken"]As for not playing the best team untill he had given up again where is the evidence?
[/quote]

Actually when we were dead and buried 10 points behind the other sides and looking relegated just as we were about to play Man United, Shackell, Safri and Helveg were included in the linup for no other reason than that he hadnt been playing them. Worthy said something along the lines of:

''I didnt want anyone to say they didnt get a chance."

we then proceeded to win all our home games and almost stay up.

Dont you love this quote from a Watford website..... 

"Nigel Worthington wasted no time in introducing two half-time subs and, while ultimately they didn''t alter the result, Norwich''s much more positive approach post-interval provided them with the lion''s share of the chances and forced the Hornets, unusually for this season, into a more introverted approach - something the manager admitted to being less than pleased during in his post-match press conference."

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="wayne"][quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

I agree the quote does not directly mention ''giving up'' but it was certainly a last throw of the dice from a managers who had stuck with his chosen tactics/side for too long without recognising the faults fans had been pointing out for 4+ months.

[/quote]

Since when has any manager of any club in the history of football picked the team based on what the fans think? There are many fans out there with valid informed intelligent views but then there are also ''the idiots'' I don''t think managers listen to fans views in general it''s not something unique to worthington.

[/quote]

I agree totally and wouldnt want the manager of NCFC picking the team based on the fans opinions.  BUT that doesnt hide the fact the fans were right and he got it very very wrong.  The fact the much underused Safri has gone on to become our most important midfielder and Holt and Edworthy were freed after playing most of the premiership season tells its own story.

[Syteanric 1]

i think Worthy has got through over 60 players in nearly 6 years.. thats almost a team a Season!

Even Barry Fry doesnt manage that!

jas :)

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

[quote user="chicken"]As for not playing the best team untill he had given up again where is the evidence? [/quote]

Actually when we were dead and buried 10 points behind the other sides and looking relegated just as we were about to play Man United, Shackell, Safri and Helveg were included in the linup for no other reason than that he hadnt been playing them. Worthy said something along the lines of:

''I didnt want anyone to say they didnt get a chance."

we then proceeded to win all our home games and almost stay up.

Dont you love this quote from a Watford website..... 

"Nigel Worthington wasted no time in introducing two half-time subs and, while ultimately they didn''t alter the result, Norwich''s much more positive approach post-interval provided them with the lion''s share of the chances and forced the Hornets, unusually for this season, into a more introverted approach - something the manager admitted to being less than pleased during in his post-match press conference."

[/quote]But with the exception of Shackel the others had had their chance. I don''t think that the manager played them just because he had given up hope - infact I think it was his willing to accept that the primary plan wasnt working. Something that you have said he hasnt done  - learn from the mistakes.Unfortunately this season we have had a very inconsistant side out there. How many players have played right back, centre back next to the doc, midfield? The answer is far to many for any stability and consistancy to be created.I don''t think that Worthington simply played those players through the sort of haphazard lack of care that you assume. Sure he wanted to give some of those other players a chance to prove him wrong and make up for their lack of quality earlier in the season and we all know the fuss that Helveg made. It pulled off and in some ways you could argue that it was a good decision. Instead you look at it the other way and suggest that these players should have been brought back sooner and as I have suggested Edworthy was playing well and Helveg and Safri had been injured or playing with a lack of form. The only clear cut argument is for Shackel who was untested and so Nigel was not prepared to take the risk.Yet again he has made the same mistake in the sense that Spillane has come in a done a good job. The problem has been there all season and at least with a youngster like that his passion is unquestionable and you know the experience will make him a better player much like Shackel has developed into a fine young centreback.I think that many would agree that Worthington has made too many risks that could be described as negative - like signing JJ2 on loan and playing him right wing when we have players that should be given a chance and if not good enough shown the door. Ok so we wanted a look at him but isnt that what trials are about?

[SuperCoolImiii 0]

wayne - I was not suggesting that Nigel should pick the team fans want but was simply pointing out that if a large section of fans (amateur coaches at best) can see fundamental flaws with team selection and tactics and then suggest alternatives which, when eventually chosen from Man U home game onwards, prove successful, it does beggar the question why a highly qualified coach and one of the brightest young managers in the land could not identify the same solution earlier?  

To chose that team simply because he didnt want players to claim they were not given a chance suggested he would not have arrived at that team in any other circumstances  - had we done so earlier we may have secured the couple of extra points needed to avoid relegation. 

 

[Saint Canary 0]

The exact qoute was

"I don''t want anybody to be able to say that they haven''t been given their chance at the end of the season."
http://new.pinkun.com/search/story.aspx?brand=PINKUNOnline&category=Norwich&itemid=NOED07%20Apr%202005%2011:49:30:660&tBrand=PINKUNOnline&tCategory=search

Obviously Worthington felt that Safri and Helveg had not been given a chance.  Or in the case of Helveg, a chance in his best position because before he was injured he was playing in midfield.

[Saint Canary 0]

I think you missed point  Wayne.  Zipper was not suggesting Worthington should pick the team the fans want.  He was suggesting that it took a long time for Worthington to see and fix problems that us mere mortals had seen for while.  Why did it take him so long is the point.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

i think Worthy has got through over 60 players in nearly 6 years.. thats almost a team a Season!

Even Barry Fry doesnt manage that!

jas :)

[/quote]Thats interesting. But then he turfed out a lot in the first couple of seasons. Devard, Develd, Sutch, Anselin, De Blasis, Wislon, Llewelyn, Jackson not to mention those that choose to leave like Marshal, Kenton, Libbra, Svensson, Helveg etc. I don''t think that it is that unusual in modern football.I think the most interesting thing is the players that we would have liked to have kept left because they wanted to like Francis, Helveg, Ashton, Kenton to some extent, Edworthy turned down one contract and did not accept the second.Whilst most of those that have moved on were either no longer up to the required standard or never were. Heckingbottom, Llewelyn, Easton and the likes were not missed. Others like Crichton and Iwan were simply a season too old and unfortunately were best moved on.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="chicken"]

I don''t think that the manager played them just because he had given up hope - infact I think it was his willing to accept that the primary plan wasnt working.
[/quote]

The manager had given up hope....  They were his words......  And if he did change his plan 7 (Seven)  games from the end of the season was a bit late to realise!!! 

Here are the belated 7 games in which we came from 10 points off 2nd bottom to almost stay up:

English Premier	Norwich	2-0	Man Utd	09-04-2005
English Premier	C Palace	3-3	Norwich	16-04-2005
English Premier	Norwich	2-1	Newcastle	20-04-2005
English Premier	Norwich	1-0	Charlton	23-04-2005
English Premier	Southampton	4-3	Norwich	30-04-2005
English Premier	Norwich	1-0	Birmingham	07-05-2005
English Premier	Fulham	6-0	Norwich	15-05-2005

Thomas Helveg had 2 games at right back prior to the 7 he got at the end of the season, thats a grand total of 9 out of his 14 (yes chicken only 14 starts and only 9 in his preffered position all season!!!) starts, 5 in midfield either Centrally or Right Sided.  Here are his other two right back games:

14-08-2004	English Premier	Norwich	1-1	C Palace	0
21-08-2004	English Premier	Man Utd	2-1	Norwich

Before being dropped.

The player Worthy preffered, Steady Eddy 31 games.....  was offered a single year deal which he turned down for greater stability elsewhere and thus was freed at the end of the season.

Yousseff Safri - well I will go throuogh later and show how scandolously underused he was, how he was the early season scapegoat, and how we only won a single game he didnt start and against southampton Phil Mulryne started alongside Damien Francis....

 

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"][quote user="wayne"][quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

I agree the quote does not directly mention ''giving up'' but it was certainly a last throw of the dice from a managers who had stuck with his chosen tactics/side for too long without recognising the faults fans had been pointing out for 4+ months.

[/quote]Since when has any manager of any club in the history of football picked the team based on what the fans think? There are many fans out there with valid informed intelligent views but then there are also ''the idiots'' I don''t think managers listen to fans views in general it''s not something unique to worthington. [/quote]

I agree totally and wouldnt want the manager of NCFC picking the team based on the fans opinions.  BUT that doesnt hide the fact the fans were right and he got it very very wrong.  The fact the much underused Safri has gone on to become our most important midfielder and Holt and Edworthy were freed after playing most of the premiership season tells its own story.

[/quote]Safri is our most important midfielder but has proven this season that he falls short of being the most reliable. If he could be both then we have a good player on our hands.Holt was exchanged after people directed Hughes esque style barracking at him and also when he started to look as if he had perhaps past his peak. Edworthy as clearly depicted by him and by the media effectively rejected two contract offers from us. So Holt yes, valid point - Edworthy no - he left of his own accord not willing to accept the one or two year deals offered to him by the club (not Worthington).And as for the fans being right and him wrong - what are you refering to? I dont think he has argued that he was glad to see the back of Edworthy or Francis for that matter. I dont think that he has argued that Safri isnt a good player.Infact when he has mentioned the injury/absantees he has said that the side struggle without Safri - just look at the African Cup period where he said he would be missed the most.

[Jim Smith 2,610]

The fans were right in that they were calling for Safri, helveg and Shackell to be played in the first team and in their correct positions for a couple of months before they were brought in by Worthington against man United. These players were not all injured. Safri in particular was made the scapegoat by Worthy for the Anfield performance having played very well in the games he played prior to that.

 

The fans could see Holt was not good enough.

The fans could see Fleming was out of his depth

The fans could see Helveg had not had a proper run at right back

The fans could see we needed a centre back in ther with more pace

 

Worthington either couldn''t or wouldn''t acknowledge any of these facts.

 

[In Dubious Battle 0]

The manager obviously had his reasons for making the selections that he did after all us fans don''t get the full picture we don''t see the players train every day. However with hindsight i think it''s fair to say worthington made some fundamental errors that season. To have a player of Helveg''s quality not playing on a regular basis was very strange