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chicken

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So we have reached the end of the season and normally these boards would have died down somewhat into something that slightly resembles the occaisional bush fires of Australia. People post a rumour and the others dance around merily trying to stamp it out whilst admiring its flicker. Somehow I think this season is going to rumble on that much longer.For every comment the Worthington protestors (I call them this because not even all the protestors want Worthington to be removed) they expect it to be taken as gospel. The problem of division has arisen and now people seem content on trying to find who is to blame for that also.The problem is whilst people drivel on about division and try to find a reason to blame someone people will just become more devided. It has become a whitch hunt of which many people are fed up with.Every little action is analysed for possible ways of making a case when is no case to be made from it. Some people state opinion as fact others one small scrap or even a hint of truth is enough to base their reason for Worthington in or out.Personaly I dont think people should change their stance next season - I think they just ought to use the summer to relax, give it a break and come back to it re-freshed because at the moment all kinds of unrealistic accusations are being made because people are not prepared to think before they type. Which believe me is a lot easier than thinking before you speak which I would guess some on here also have a problem with.Yes there are one or two like 1st Wizard who has been doubtful over Worthington since the start but it has to be said that for the last four or so seasons they have been the absolute minority. My approach to the whole situation is based upon what has happened - the whole picture, not just the bits I want to mention because the other bits don''t support my opinion.This season has seen a rise in unrest amongst fans for the lack of decent results. No matter how hard people want to argue it this is the main reason to why the numbers of frustrated fans has swolen. It is also very easy to see that there is no majority on this one - it changes from week to week on how people think it is going and the results we get and you can not have a minority or majority if the votes you rely on a wavering, its not fixed so no undisputed number to fix a label too.As for reasons why this campaign went wrong? Well you just have to look at all of the factors such as players leaving in the summer for mixed reasons, wages, not good enough and some wanted to leave of their own free will, there may well have been one or two in there that left because of the manager but I doubt there would be more than one. Even so players were brought in all of whom had a track reccord of performing well in the top half of the championship or equivelant.Loosing Ashton was a blow but then should we get relegated I think we all knew that it was likely. And looking at the England situation as it is - he may find himself either in the squad or on standby - and that decision would then have been the right one for him. Maybe not for us but it was for him.The unrest amoungst the support started to really build before Christmas, I class this as a factor and quite a major one at that. Teams have often called the fans the 12th player on the pitch. All sorts of research has been done to prove that this is not just a theory but is actually factual in the sence that the more possitive and vocal the support is the more invigerated and confident the team on the pitch become (arguably what has really kept Pompey up this season). The is even research that proves if co-ordinated the home support could actually help score a goal by blowing in the direction of the opponents goal!!!!!Anyway when it comes down to the big question - Is it all Worthingtons fault? I think people have lost their way a bit. Suddenly it has become about his reccord at Blackpool which is neither here nor there after four good season. Then that is said and last season is brought up as a bad season and we played awful football then too when even opposition managers and TV pundits were coming out to say that we played football the way it was meant to be played I even recall Jose saying that as a footballing team we did not deserve to loose by as many goals as we did, he suggested that the score line flattered them after a good solid performance where two or three mistakes were all it took for them to beat us.Where does all of this come into this season? Well to be honest it doesnt. There is nothing in the past that can be used to say that Worthington is a bad or good manager NOW. He has had four great seasons for sure. But its all about potential and about how well he has got the team going recently. I would suggest that this season has been poor by his standards - he has never come out and said that it is good nor has he said that none of it is his fault.As with a lot of ways to approach sport - you are only as good as your last performance in this case Wolves. Wolves, Palace, Leeds and Preston are all teams we should have the confidence to take on. By all reports the Wolves game was a drastic improvement on the style of football we played and maybe that was the plan. Give the fans a footballing finnish that they have been craving. But then we lost. It suggests that we are not quite there yet. We may need new personel or it may just be that we need to thats style more of a chance to work.Peoples opinions are now changing on Etuhu how long will it take them to change on Colin who has just six more appearences to his name including substitute appearences?My opinion, and it is just an opinion is based purely on the solid evidence at hand. I think Worthington should be given longer. I am not worried about his transfer reccord because it has been good enough to get us a guaranteed top 9 position in this league which may not be good enough for some, but having sat through season after season of football in no mans land in this league after having my heart broken by relegation previously - I am happy to know that div 2 or league 1 is now as far away as I could have every dreamed it of being.Should we be concerned? Ofcourse we should, even those of us that admire what Worthington has done for this club, this season has been one of  rebuilding and re-development. It hasnt been as good as I would have liked because ideally we would be top six. We have to be careful because if we dont get top six next season we will back to square one and I really will agree that perhaps a change of management is needed. Next season there will not be the factors there have been this season. The players have all been playing together now for the best part of a year - longer in some cases.What we have to be sure of though is that this seasons doubts are kept at bay for at least the begining of next season, provide a good 12th man and really see if this team has what it takes. If Worthington can not get the team winning clear of all negative factors then he really should go, but this season has been too murkey and confused to really be used as proof either way.As for his last words - they just prove that the fans are not the only frustrated ones and that no matter what he says right now it will be interpreted in anyway which suits YOU best. And you can not base a sound judgement on what YOU think someone else meant. Your best off asking them that.

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Chicken - I agree that the reasons for this seasons non performance are multilple complex interlinked and hard to pin down.  It is never just one persons fault and asking whether it is nigels fault is not the key question;  The more pertinent questions are could another manager have done better with the same resources? and Is there any evidence that Nigel and the current coaching staff can arrest the decline and turn us into conteders next season?   

Where we disagree is that I feel that most of our failings can be linked to footballing and man management issues - both of which are the responsibility of the coaching staff (it is never just nigel for me - although he is the figurehead).   My contention is that the manager has failed to consistently get anything like the best from the teams he has sent out from the squads at his disposal over the last two seasons. 

Just how long do we, as fans,  keep cheering and getting no response?   

As you point out the fans discontent started just before christmas after the extremely poor start and prior to the ''superb second half to the season'' that the club tells us we have had.   Where is the negative influence on results that you claim the fans have?   The Wolves game was one of the better home atmospheres and supportive the whole game yet we lost for the first time in 7 home fixtures; from your text are you saying we only score because the crowd blew murray into their defender? 

It is often said Nigel does not kick the ball once the players are on the pitch - likewise, neither do the fans. 

I can understand why you feel worthington should get another crack at the cherry but of oft repeated reasons I disagree; 

Like you I am a 12 month a year fan and cant forget the club during the close season - and will continue to discuss issues as an when they arise, not when it suits a particular group of people, be it the fans or the club.

I will be there in August singing for my team because I am a loyal fan - but I will also protest, chant and suggest how things can be better if it becomes clear that we are again failing to perform.

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I''m not baying for Worthy''s blood like some Chicken but it''s interesting that both Doncaster and Munby have defended Worthy on this matter yet the man himself has not clarified what he meant.  He must realise he has upset some fans (not myself) yet he has not come out and clarified his comments.  Whether people are interepreting it the way they want or not, it was a stupid comment to make in the current circumstances. 

Injuries (for me) are not a good enough excuse for failure this season, these things happen when you have a small squad, it happened to our small squad in the Premier League and it happened again this year.  In fact we had a smaller squad this time round.  You could argue that the club brought this on themselves by not learning from what happened the year before.  Also if you have injuries, you need to adapt.  If you are missing your better players then you have to change to a style which makes you hard to beat, not try and play the same way with less quality in your side.

I would agree that unrest rose in December but not in the ground,  it was around that time NCISA released their statement saying they thought Worthy should leave but that did not translate into a bad atmosphere at Carrow Road.  I don''t know how many games you have been to this year Chicken but I cannot remember a truly negative atmosphere in the ground until Brighton but that was as much to do with the fact there was f-all to cheer about.  As for the 12th man thing, the FANS used to have a squad number on the official site but that was removed very early in the season.  Obviously the club don''t think it''s that important.  In regards to a crowd blowing in unison being able to put the ball in the net, if that is indeed true then maybe sections of the crowd should be provided with hand-fans to aid the team.  No doubt the 12th man would get more next season than Peter Thorne.

Personally I don''t really care who the manager is as long as the squad/club is performing to it''s full potential, which this year it hasn''t.  You can point to whatever reasons you want but for every piece of bad luck that has befallen the club this year, there has been a bad decision made as well.

Next season, I will be back cheering on the team again both home and away, no doubt clocking up another 20,000 miles.  Hopefully I will have a bit more to cheer about.

 

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[quote user="Saint Canary"]

I''m not baying for Worthy''s blood like some Chicken but it''s interesting that both Doncaster and Munby have defended Worthy on this matter yet the man himself has not clarified what he meant.  He must realise he has upset some fans (not myself) yet he has not come out and clarified his comments.  Whether people are interepreting it the way they want or not, it was a stupid comment to make in the current circumstances. 

Injuries (for me) are not a good enough excuse for failure this season, these things happen when you have a small squad, it happened to our small squad in the Premier League and it happened again this year.  In fact we had a smaller squad this time round.  You could argue that the club brought this on themselves by not learning from what happened the year before.  Also if you have injuries, you need to adapt.  If you are missing your better players then you have to change to a style which makes you hard to beat, not try and play the same way with less quality in your side.

I would agree that unrest rose in December but not in the ground,  it was around that time NCISA released their statement saying they thought Worthy should leave but that did not translate into a bad atmosphere at Carrow Road.  I don''t know how many games you have been to this year Chicken but I cannot remember a truly negative atmosphere in the ground until Brighton but that was as much to do with the fact there was f-all to cheer about.  As for the 12th man thing, the FANS used to have a squad number on the official site but that was removed very early in the season.  Obviously the club don''t think it''s that important.  In regards to a crowd blowing in unison being able to put the ball in the net, if that is indeed true then maybe sections of the crowd should be provided with hand-fans to aid the team.  No doubt the 12th man would get more next season than Peter Thorne.

Personally I don''t really care who the manager is as long as the squad/club is performing to it''s full potential, which this year it hasn''t.  You can point to whatever reasons you want but for every piece of bad luck that has befallen the club this year, there has been a bad decision made as well.

Next season, I will be back cheering on the team again both home and away, no doubt clocking up another 20,000 miles.  Hopefully I will have a bit more to cheer about.

 

[/quote]The thing that a lot of people seem to be agreeing on is the size of the squad. And if people believe this to be a major factor is that Nigels fault or that of the board? I mean if thats the size he has been told he has to work with then surely its the board that deserves your chants too?

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[quote user="chicken"]
The thing that a lot of people seem to be agreeing on is the size of the squad. And if people believe this to be a major factor is that Nigels fault or that of the board? I mean if thats the size he has been told he has to work with then surely its the board that deserves your chants too?
[/quote]

As I have said on numerous occasions that I have not chanted anti-Worthington so I''m not going to chant anti-board.  However I have made the point ever since last summer that Nigel was not given enough money.  I think the board have kind of hidden behind Worthington and let him take a lot of flack that he is not due.  Our squad got smaller this summer and it was too small already.  He basically only spent what he recovered from player sales of Svensson, Helveg and Jonson.

If that truly was all they afford and there were not prepared to take a risk then fine but surely the rewards of the Premiership are worth a slight risk.  Money spent well is not really a risk (barring injury but the club do have insurance for that).  Is Huckerby worth less than we paid for him?  Is Earnshaw?  Did Ashton go down in value?  A good investment is a good investment and to give credit where it''s due,when Worthy has spent larger amounts he has done well.

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The board do take some blame too, inevitably. 

However the shape of the squad, whatever its size, is dictated by the manager and no one else.  As saint pointed out elsewhere we started the season with as many midfielders as keepers, no right sided midfielder, with no plan to accomodate that omisson, and too many strikers. Only the defensive part of the squad was balanced with had enough cover in depth. The quality of midfielders brought in was not sufficient to be first team regulars.

The manager had ample opportunity to change the shape to address these issue, look at the number of loan players we took on and then the transfers window.  The last three signings were two strikers and a central defender.  All three had quality and were decent signings by the manager but none of them addressed the problems areas on the pitch or in the squad - central and right sided midfield - all they did was over bolster the two areas of the squad that were already well covered, and matched the type of players already on the books rather than introducing something different. 

The players did not display enough committment during the 46 games and the board may or may not have limited nigels hand and so they take some blame too;  however the manager has not made the most of the budget he did have to build a competetive and balanced squad, then failed to deploy that squad to their strengths and compounded & magnified the errors by failing to address isues as they arose.      

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

The board do take some blame too, inevitably. 

However the shape of the squad, whatever its size, is dictated by the manager and no one else.  As saint pointed out elsewhere we started the season with as many midfielders as keepers, no right sided midfielder, with no plan to accomodate that omisson, and too many strikers. Only the defensive part of the squad was balanced with had enough cover in depth. The quality of midfielders brought in was not sufficient to be first team regulars.

The manager had ample opportunity to change the shape to address these issue, look at the number of loan players we took on and then the transfers window.  The last three signings were two strikers and a central defender.  All three had quality and were decent signings by the manager but none of them addressed the problems areas on the pitch or in the squad - central and right sided midfield - all they did was over bolster the two areas of the squad that were already well covered, and matched the type of players already on the books rather than introducing something different. 

The players did not display enough committment during the 46 games and the board may or may not have limited nigels hand and so they take some blame too;  however the manager has not made the most of the budget he did have to build a competetive and balanced squad, then failed to deploy that squad to their strengths and compounded & magnified the errors by failing to address isues as they arose.      

[/quote]When you say midfielders I believe you mean central midfielders with Safri, Hughes and Rossi.As for right midfield I believe that Worthington did try to solve that one by bringing in Dean Marney and both Louis-Jean who can play there and Hughes who has played there.As for the problems we had within the squad I don''t think signing Rehman or Earnshaw were bad. At that point in time we had three out and out central defenders in Shackell, Flemming and Doherty.JJ2 was the only player that perhaps should not have been brought in. But then again if we have been interested in him and he is available for free now then why not get him in to have a look at what he can do. As I have said before - if he stays then I think we have seen the last of Thorne.However I do think you are right that in some senses we have a very unbalanced squad especially when you look at depth where in some departments we have almost too many players and in another to few.

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[quote user="chicken"]
When you say midfielders I believe you mean central midfielders with Safri, Hughes and Rossi.

As for right midfield I believe that Worthington did try to solve that one by bringing in Dean Marney and both Louis-Jean who can play there and Hughes who has played there.

[/quote]

If think "can" is the crucial word here Chicken.  While the players you mentioned can play there it is debatable whether it is their best position.  What we needed was someone who "does" play there

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You make some good points but I feel some of your arguements are flawed. Yes the crowd are the 12th man and they were behind the club from the beginning of the season, so how do you explain such a poor start ?, the discontent only came as a result of woeful performance after woeful performance punctuated by spin and excuses, lets not forget we started with 3 home games and these yielded just 3 points.

Much has also been made of injuries and players settling in, every club has injuries so that really is not a good enough excuse for me. We then have the old chestnut of the team needing time to gel, well they have had all season and have not really seen any evidence of it happening, never in the top six, never won more than we lost and scored less goals than Millwall who got relegated. Lets not forget that Harry Redknapp took over at Portmouth with relegation a near certainty yet they survived, he replaced the central spine of the team with loan deals etc and they did not have the luxury of a full season to gel.

If you are happy with a "guranteed 9th" then good for you. If the club really is ambitious I expect to see a push for automatic promotion next year, I cling to the hope that we were prudent with the parachute payment this season with a view to getting promoted without spending much of it, and that with next seasons (final) parachute payment we will see an influx of quality players and clear out of some of the dross.

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Ok how about Marney plays there for Tottenham reserves and Louis-Jean plays down the right.I have to say that this is slight nitpicking in my books. Most players have more than one position that they can play. Especially when they play down the flanks. Graeme Le Saux is a good example of this - anywhere down the left.Thats why Louis-Jean came to us with the description of a wing-back. If we played 5 across the middle or back he can play the length of the line much like Brennan came to the club with that reputation.I think you will find a lot of other clubs with smaller squads do the same. I personaly would have liked to have seen maybe one of the youngsters used as cover like other clubs do if they are working on a tight budget - if they were not good enpough after five or six games what have you lost? But again I don''t think that is entirely down to Worthington.

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[quote user="chicken"]Ok how about Marney plays there for Tottenham reserves and Louis-Jean plays down the right.

I have to say that this is slight nitpicking in my books. Most players have more than one position that they can play. Especially when they play down the flanks. Graeme Le Saux is a good example of this - anywhere down the left.

Thats why Louis-Jean came to us with the description of a wing-back. If we played 5 across the middle or back he can play the length of the line much like Brennan came to the club with that reputation.

I think you will find a lot of other clubs with smaller squads do the same. I personaly would have liked to have seen maybe one of the youngsters used as cover like other clubs do if they are working on a tight budget - if they were not good enpough after five or six games what have you lost? But again I don''t think that is entirely down to Worthington.
[/quote]

How about Simon Charlton at left wing in an away game, I cant remember which game it was BUT do remember Neil Adams almost laughing on the commentary about it.  When I heard the line up it was just unbeleivable...

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[quote user="chicken"]Ok how about Marney plays there for Tottenham reserves and Louis-Jean plays down the right.

I have to say that this is slight nitpicking in my books. Most players have more than one position that they can play. Especially when they play down the flanks. Graeme Le Saux is a good example of this - anywhere down the left.

Thats why Louis-Jean came to us with the description of a wing-back. If we played 5 across the middle or back he can play the length of the line much like Brennan came to the club with that reputation.

I think you will find a lot of other clubs with smaller squads do the same. I personaly would have liked to have seen maybe one of the youngsters used as cover like other clubs do if they are working on a tight budget - if they were not good enpough after five or six games what have you lost? But again I don''t think that is entirely down to Worthington.
[/quote]

Where did I say anything was entirely down to Worthington Chicken?  I don''t think you will find any comment on this thread or forum where I said that anything is all Worthington''s fault. 

Being able to play somewhere is not the same as it being your best position.  Marney played his senior games for Spurs in the centre I believe and I think that Louis-Jean has played the majority at of his football at full back.  For me a wing back is not the same thing as a midfielder or a winger, it''s a more defensive position.

There are lots of players who can do a job in a position but you should have a recognised player in your squad for each position.  You point to Le Saux as being able to play anywhere down the left but you fail to acknowledge that he is a much better left back than a left midfielder.  His career only really started when he was converted from a winger to left back.  He won his England caps as left back/wing back and won the Premiership in the same role.

Lots of players can play in different positions.  Rooney has played wide left for Man U but he is still a Striker.  Gary Linekar played right wing for a season at Barcelona, would you say he was a winger?

 

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[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

[quote user="chicken"]Ok how about Marney plays there for Tottenham reserves and Louis-Jean plays down the right.I have to say that this is slight nitpicking in my books. Most players have more than one position that they can play. Especially when they play down the flanks. Graeme Le Saux is a good example of this - anywhere down the left.Thats why Louis-Jean came to us with the description of a wing-back. If we played 5 across the middle or back he can play the length of the line much like Brennan came to the club with that reputation.I think you will find a lot of other clubs with smaller squads do the same. I personaly would have liked to have seen maybe one of the youngsters used as cover like other clubs do if they are working on a tight budget - if they were not good enpough after five or six games what have you lost? But again I don''t think that is entirely down to Worthington.[/quote]

How about Simon Charlton at left wing in an away game, I cant remember which game it was BUT do remember Neil Adams almost laughing on the commentary about it.  When I heard the line up it was just unbeleivable...

[/quote]Sure it is very easy to look back at those decisions and some of them did seem slightly odd but again, with McVeigh and Huckerby injured who would you have picked for the left?The only thing he could have done is tried to play 5 across the middle with Drury as a wingback. The only problem with that is it would make our right side even more vulnerable with either Flemings lack of pace or Colins lack of experience and form making it an ideal approach of attack for an opposing team.Then you have to muster three centre backs which is where you could put Charlton into it I suppose. But its still not clear.I simply believe that we need a bigger squad whether that is relying on the younger players more or bringing in more experience. It is very easy to point out when players like Charlton were played way out of position and it didnt work but some of you refuse to look at why that was and are happy just saying it was stupid.Do you really think Worthington wanted to play him there? I mean honestly?And as for injuries and everyone has them - sure but then everyone else has a bigger squad and so are able to absorb them much easier. Its one thing having bad players as back up but its another when you are forced to play players that are just about reliable in their first choice position in another place where they are not likely to cope.Portsmouth is not a great example in comparrison. They already had a lot of very good players that had worked under Harry who had gotten them a lot higher. He came back to a situation where the backroom staff knew him as did the players. Lua Lua started picking up form again, Primus has been solid and yes Mendes etc have all had a great imput without really showing much sign of having to settle in.But then I wouldnt say that they one playing really attractive football - the battled hard. Not just that but the players brought in had quality, they are good experienced and proven pros who have played at prem level before. And again they now have a larger squad.I am not making excuses for a poor season but I simply believe that if we are to carry the knocks that players can pick up we need more depth. I do think missing Safri for so many games effected our creativity. I think the point made on the pinkun is that he infact only managed a string of 7 games before becoming injured/ill or away on African nations.Its exactly what happens when he is injured, Huckerby is out or McKenzie is unfit that worries me - not to mention the right midfield saga. There is simply no reliable back up and in some cases no back up at all.

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why do you continually defend worthy and come out with cracking quotes like "do you think he wanted to play him there?" WELL ACTUALLY YES, BECAUSE IF HE DIDNT WANT TO HE COULD HAVE PLAYED SOMEBODY ELSE THERE!  may be he could have tried a youngster?

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Players can play right midfield (indeed Colin, Marney, Hughes, WLY, JJ1 & 2, Hendo all have) but what were missing all season was a right midfielder - look at the list; none of them are wide midfielders/wingers - either converted midfielders strikers or defenders.

MLJ has always pimarily been a defender and Marneys best games for spurs were in central midfield (incl those superb goals the xmas before last) - he spent most of his time here looking to come inside leaving huge tracks of space on the outside, very reminiscent of hughes at reading.

When I said a lack of midfielders I meant exactly that - we started the season with 4 central midfielders (marney, safri, Jarrett and Hughes) and nothing else - as saint points out the same number of keepers.  One was always going to have absences due to suspensions injury record and ACN one was an untried youngster so unlikely to last a full season anyway and two experienced players.  4 players for 2 postions is perfect - 4 for 4 is not acceptable - and I did not all this out in August   

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