Crnac speaks

[Monty13 2,796]

23 hours ago, hogesar said:

Bit disappointed he didn't thank me for steering him in the right direction...pfft...

Yeah. I think we've discussed it before, but it does finally confirm what I'd said previously which is that everything pointed to that inside right position being his preferred. 

What we now need to see is if he can be effective against other teams, beyond the 2 worst defensive teams in the league!

Yea fair enough, I’d say it definitely wasn’t clear which was my point and Club seem to be suggesting they see his future as a striker but straight from the horses mouth now.

[Kenny Foggo 1,205]

Must be hard going to a different Country, alone at 20 years old and having to deal with all that change and upheaval. 100% behind the lad. Think he'll be a real asset next campaign...

Isn't it great to have a free flowing attacking side with a coach that improves players again! 

[hogesar 10,949]

49 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Must be hard going to a different Country, alone at 20 years old and having to deal with all that change and upheaval. 100% behind the lad. Think he'll be a real asset next campaign...

Isn't it great to have a free flowing attacking side with a coach that improves players again! 

Don't want to look backwards really but this always makes it sound like last season was just a nothing season where in reality we saw an improvement in Rowe, Idah, Sara and arguably Sainz / Nunez and 3 of those have generated the funds to enable the likes of the fee on Crnac.

[wcorkcanary 4,839]

3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Don't want to look backwards really but this always makes it sound like last season was just a nothing season where in reality we saw an improvement in Rowe, Idah, Sara and arguably Sainz / Nunez and 3 of those have generated the funds to enable the likes of the fee on Crnac.

Not sure we saw an improvement in Idah , Hoggo. Hence the outcome.  

[The Bristol Nest 612]

Crnac speaks. Glad someone is allowed to. Formal complaint pending #🌈 week.

Edited December 3, 2024 by The Bristol Nest

[hogesar 10,949]

11 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Not sure we saw an improvement in Idah , Hoggo. Hence the outcome.  

We weren't going to get 8.5m for him without his improvement last season in my opinion.

[wcorkcanary 4,839]

9 minutes ago, hogesar said:

We weren't going to get 8.5m for him without his improvement last season in my opinion.

Brenda Rogers might have improved him a bit , but he wasn't getting any better while here , not to my reasonably trained eye, anyway. Of course i dont have Bob  Easticks depth  of knowledge gained from playing 4 years of youth football,  ive only sat on multiple assesment panels where a players abilities  and progress are monitored and marked.  He's also playing in a mostly dominant team now, which makes looking good a lot easier. As stated before, I was willing him to wake up and switch on...if he had, do you think we'd have let him go for under 10 million considering  what a lot think he could achieve if he plays to his potential.  Semi failed project, but funds recouped. Next please, who already looks sharper, tidier and tbh, less 'stupid'... I dunno if Adam is stupid but he has a perpetually  bemused and befuddled expression, which doesn't  help matters. 

 

Edited December 3, 2024 by wcorkcanary

[Google Bot 3,995]

2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Wittgenstein summed it up most beautifully with his famous quote "the limits of my language are the limits of my world".

The world has changed a lot since his days though, we move more towards global currencies, global industry taking hold and dumbing down of language to suit the masses you start to lose a lot of the uniqueness of many countries.

When you visit these countries it's the old school that seem to hold the cultures of the past, yet when it comes to the younger folk people seem very similar to me, and depending on where their country is in it's progression some yearn for the past, and others celebrate the new era - even in the poorest shanty areas you find people fixed to their mobile phone.

Incredibly, I think in regards to language and the culture of, we are heading towards Orwell's newspeak at quite the rate now.  As an example, It's already common to see terms like 'un-alived' used, and not in a mocking way.

Globalisation is a juggernaut that has, and will destroy many more nuances of cultures around the world because it's good for business.

Edited December 3, 2024 by Google Bot

[TheGunnShow 7,470]

59 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

The world has changed a lot since his days though, we move more towards global currencies, global industry taking hold and dumbing down of language to suit the masses you start to lose a lot of the uniqueness of many countries.

When you visit these countries it's the old school that seem to hold the cultures of the past, yet when it comes to the younger folk people seem very similar to me, and depending on where their country is in it's progression some yearn for the past, and others celebrate the new era - even in the poorest shanty areas you find people fixed to their mobile phone.

Incredibly, I think in regards to language and the culture of, we are heading towards Orwell's newspeak at quite the rate now.  As an example, It's already common to see terms like 'un-alived' used, and not in a mocking way.

Globalisation is a juggernaut that has, and will destroy many more nuances of cultures around the world because it's good for business.

That sounds like you actually summed up his quote beautifully, especially when considering the implications of your last sentence.

[ron obvious 1,732]

23 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Sure, no-one disputes that English isn't a lingua franca at all, but if you really want to understand people from other countries, you need to understand their language.

Wittgenstein summed it up most beautifully with his famous quote "the limits of my language are the limits of my world".

No. The world I can communicate to others is done mostly by language, but it is only a partial description at best. Art includes other forms of communication which are often far more effective. My world - & yours - contains much more than can ever be formulated with words.

And words are a huge problem in themselves. Slippery customers. Changing their meaning all the time, sometimes in Orwellian ways.

The monograph I read on Wittgenstein seemed to conclude that his final position was that all language is tautological - a rose is a  rose is a rose ..... - which is another problem about language in itself.

[hogesar 10,949]

23 hours ago, Monty13 said:

Yea fair enough, I’d say it definitely wasn’t clear which was my point and Club seem to be suggesting they see his future as a striker but straight from the horses mouth now.

I think you might be right that the club see him as a striker and he doesn't (yet). I think that also adds up with the fee spent because to make a profit on a player like Crnac is much easier if he's a goal-scoring CF with some physical attributes. I suppose by the end of the season we'll know how realistic that is.

[TheGunnShow 7,470]

39 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

No. The world I can communicate to others is done mostly by language, but it is only a partial description at best. Art includes other forms of communication which are often far more effective. My world - & yours - contains much more than can ever be formulated with words.

And words are a huge problem in themselves. Slippery customers. Changing their meaning all the time, sometimes in Orwellian ways.

The monograph I read on Wittgenstein seemed to conclude that his final position was that all language is tautological - a rose is a  rose is a rose ..... - which is another problem about language in itself.

And art is a language all of its own.

[PurpleCanary 6,463]

On 03/12/2024 at 11:22, TheGunnShow said:

Sure, no-one disputes that English isn't a lingua franca at all, but if you really want to understand people from other countries, you need to understand their language.

Wittgenstein summed it up most beautifully with his famous quote "the limits of my language are the limits of my world".

Wittgenstein also said: "If the lion could speak we would not understand him." And I would add that the limits of Wittgenstein's world were more the ability of others to understand him, and him to understand them.

Edited December 4, 2024 by PurpleCanary

[GenerationA47 868]

33 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Wittgenstein also said: "If the lion could speak we would not understand him." And I would add that the limits of Wittgenstein's world were more the ability of others to understand him, and him to understand them.

Pointed up by this being his favourite joke in English…

Chick to random orange lying in its nest: “What are you doing here?”

Orange: “Ma me laid!”

 

You had to be there / Austrian / a genius of linguistic philosophy 

[chicken 3,138]

On 03/12/2024 at 12:20, wcorkcanary said:

Brenda Rogers might have improved him a bit , but he wasn't getting any better while here , not to my reasonably trained eye, anyway. Of course i dont have Bob  Easticks depth  of knowledge gained from playing 4 years of youth football,  ive only sat on multiple assesment panels where a players abilities  and progress are monitored and marked.  He's also playing in a mostly dominant team now, which makes looking good a lot easier. As stated before, I was willing him to wake up and switch on...if he had, do you think we'd have let him go for under 10 million considering  what a lot think he could achieve if he plays to his potential.  Semi failed project, but funds recouped. Next please, who already looks sharper, tidier and tbh, less 'stupid'... I dunno if Adam is stupid but he has a perpetually  bemused and befuddled expression, which doesn't  help matters. 

 

I think it's fair to say that he was getting far more oppertunities in his preferred position as striker. When he did, under Wagner, we played to his strengths, so we saw goals.

Sometimes the improvements we see are what I would call 'developmental' and other times it's because a coach sees a way to play a player in a system that gets the most/best out of them.

Holt and Pukki are both examples of players who by their late 20's hadn't really achieved much of note. The right time, the right coach, placed in a system aimed to get the best out of them and the players around them, suddenly look like multimillion £ players.

In a sense I think both of you are right. We were always told he was arguably the best finisher at the club, so it would appear his wider game needed to improve. That may have been why Farke played him so often in one of the wide attacking births.

Starting more games up front under Smith and especially Wagner would appear helped to establish he could be a very good finisher at this level. He did also start to chip in with build up play more and assists. Sometimes game-time alone develops players.

Fisher is superb example of that I feel.

Either way, if you'd spoken to fans in Aug 2023, most would have laughed at the idea Idah was worth £8.5m to anyone.

[chicken 3,138]

23 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

That sounds like you actually summed up his quote beautifully, especially when considering the implications of your last sentence.

Really important to note, I believe, that Wittgenstein worked with a lot of military veterans.

We understand a lot more about ptsd now and that it isn't just military veterans who's brains can be severely impacted by high stress situations and witnessing trauma.

I say this because globilisation isn't just 'economy' or 'business', it really is war. It always has been.

Globilisation forces people to try and speak the language of the force at hand. Chrysler used to have an awful reputation - a result of it's corporate language to rather pay compensation to drivers for faulty design than recall vehicles and have the issues addressed.

Equally, lying about environmental 'errors', pumping waste products from battery production into streams and lakes resulting in infertility or babies being born deformed etc.

All to save on costs to compete with other economic competitors.

It's the same world where people will try to push their own language down and insist on it being the right one. Politics, IMHO, right now is particularly devisive. You see that play out on here at times. You can agree with 75% of something but that 25% means you aren't 100% so you're not 'in'.

Time for Delia and Michael to leave but also feel they deserve thanks and respect for their tenure means you aren't a hater and in that language means you have to want them to stay too.

It's crazy. Languages are crazy. The way I find best is to live and let live. Rather than nit-pick over words, look beneath them for the message someone is trying to convey. 

Wittgenstein again: scaffolding and zone of proximal development.

Why embrace the devide when someone is using slightly different words than you'd choose to describe something?

Who cares what Crnac sounds like? We didn't sign him to sing Sinatra to us. Who cares where his preferred position is as long as he is playing well in the position he's in and helping the team to win.

Look at Fisher. Was a striker, now plays... well, right back, left back, midfield... his understanding of the game is superb for him to be able to do that. I'm sure he enjoys one more than the other.

Most offensive players are now 'attackers'. In a 4-3-3 some sources will call the front three strikers. Or they'll call the wider two wide attackers, or wingers, or forwards, or wide forwards... a player in behind a striker can be a second striker, a No.10, an attacking midfielder, a playmaker... and that's just in English.

The FIFA games haven't helped. We now have CDM, which is a pet hate of mine. The central bit never used to exist. Defensive midfielder has always been enough. It's like you can have wing defensive midfielders or slightly off to the left defensive midfielders...

[Ward 3 498]

If certain people on here actually looked into crnac properly they'd see he is a right sided attacker. But there we go, there is always 1 or 2 who think they know everything 👀🤔

[Robert N. LiM 6,442]

I think it was the constant arguing about Wittgenstein that led Connor to shut the non-football section

[The Bristol Nest 612]

7 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I think it was the constant arguing about Wittgenstein that led Connor to shut the non-football section

Don't even mention standing up for diversity in football...

I narrowly avoided a red card for talking about these Ipswichy things that were talked about in every decent newspaper and on tv and radio. About football. 🙂

[Robert N. LiM 6,442]

17 hours ago, The Bristol Nest said:

Don't even mention standing up for diversity in football...

I narrowly avoided a red card for talking about these Ipswichy things that were talked about in every decent newspaper and on tv and radio. About football. 🙂

Yeah, the idea that that subject (the top story on the BBC's football site yesterday) is out of bounds to discuss on a football message board is ridiculous.

Worth saying again: there are still no gay male footballers who feel able to come out*. That should shame everyone involved in football.

I have a lot of sympathy for those trying to moderate this board. No doubt a lot of stuff goes over the line. But when I saw that thread yesterday it was full of interesting, respectful comments. A great shame that it is felt we can't discuss those issues.

Edited December 5, 2024 by Robert N. LiM
*as Chicken points out below, there have been a small number

[The Bristol Nest 612]

I have sympathies with moderators but it was a very disrespectful act which brought shame on the Pink un. 

[Lazza 75]

27 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Worth saying again: there are still no gay male footballers who feel able to come out. That should shame everyone involved in football.

True, but also, why should they? I'm sure their colleagues know and they also know what the response would be from a big enough section of the "fans" to make life uncomfortable.

But also (and I know this is a long way from the point) but straight players aren't expected to "come out" as straight, so why should gay players have to come out as gay? Surely, if everyone is treated as equal, it just shouldn't be a thing, and nobody should have to come out as anything. Yes, I know that's over-simplifying things.

[Robert N. LiM 6,442]

3 minutes ago, Lazza said:

they also know what the response would be from a big enough section of the "fans" to make life uncomfortable.

Exactly, that's the point. We need to get to a point where that's no longer true. That's the point of campaigns like the current one.

 

3 minutes ago, Lazza said:

straight players aren't expected to "come out" as straight, so why should gay players have to come out as gay? Surely, if everyone is treated as equal, it just shouldn't be a thing, and nobody should have to come out as anything. Yes, I know that's over-simplifying things.

Loads of straight players are 'out', though. Just take a moment to think about all the NCFC players that you know to have a female partner or to have kids. Lots of us were sending good thoughts to Ben Gibson and his (female) partner last season, for instance, knowing that their baby was in intensive care.

Straight players all get to live their lives without having to hide that aspect of themselves.

So, to answer your first question:

5 minutes ago, Lazza said:

True, but also, why should they?

They shouldn't feel like they have to come out. But they ought to be able to live their lives, just as their straight counterparts do. It happens in most walks of life in our society these days. But men's football is miles behind.

[Capt. Pants 5,152]

1 hour ago, Ward 3 said:

If certain people on here actually looked into crnac properly they'd see he is a right sided attacker. But there we go, there is always 1 or 2 who think they know everything 👀🤔

For fear of getting this thread back on track again, I think it's highly likely he'll go back to being a right sided attacker if and when Sargent returns to fitness. My hope then is he takes this new found confidence and form back to that position and emulates Sainz. That might be rather tasty, even if shortlived depending on what happens in the summer.

[chicken 3,138]

8 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Yeah, the idea that that subject (the top story on the BBC's football site yesterday) is out of bounds to discuss on a football message board is ridiculous.

Worth saying again: there are still no gay male footballers who feel able to come out. That should shame everyone involved in football.

I have a lot of sympathy for those trying to moderate this board. No doubt a lot of stuff goes over the line. But when I saw that thread yesterday it was full of interesting, respectful comments. A great shame that it is felt we can't discuss those issues.

There is...

https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/07/12/gay-footballers-pro-male-players-premier-league-openly/#page/7

[chicken 3,138]

8 hours ago, Lazza said:

But also (and I know this is a long way from the point) but straight players aren't expected to "come out" as straight, so why should gay players have to come out as gay? Surely, if everyone is treated as equal, it just shouldn't be a thing, and nobody should have to come out as anything. Yes, I know that's over-simplifying things.

As Robbo says, the shouldn't have to. However it's not about announcing they are gay. It's about not fearing the financial implications of being openly gay. Fear of contracts not being renewed, sponsorships being dropped and/or drying up etc etc etc.

As for the first bit to the question... it's incredibly naive at best. It's like asking why are there pride marches when there aren't straight ones.

[canarybubbles 2,210]

13 hours ago, Lazza said:

True, but also, why should they? I'm sure their colleagues know and they also know what the response would be from a big enough section of the "fans" to make life uncomfortable.

But also (and I know this is a long way from the point) but straight players aren't expected to "come out" as straight, so why should gay players have to come out as gay? Surely, if everyone is treated as equal, it just shouldn't be a thing, and nobody should have to come out as anything. Yes, I know that's over-simplifying things.

i don't normally get aggressive, but I am sick to death of being accused of 'flaunting' it if I am openly gay, and this facile argument that straight people don't need to flaunt their sexuality, so why do gay people?

Do you imagine some straight players aren't 'flaunting' it with their trophy wives? And would you be happier if gay people just slunk back to the closet because their public visibility makes some people uncomfortable? And should we let this poor little snowflake bigotry guide our policy on this?

Yes, some of the fans would make homophobic chants just as some of them used to make racist chants (and still do in many other countries). But the onus isn't on gay players to prevent those chants by not being open about their lives; the onus is on the authorities to foster an atmosphere in grounds where those chants are unacceptable, just as they have with racist ones.

I like to think that people have changed and the bigots are now largely outnumbered. It's time for football to catch up.

 

[wcorkcanary 4,839]

13 hours ago, Lazza said:

True, but also, why should they? I'm sure their colleagues know and they also know what the response would be from a big enough section of the "fans" to make life uncomfortable.

But also (and I know this is a long way from the point) but straight players aren't expected to "come out" as straight, so why should gay players have to come out as gay? Surely, if everyone is treated as equal, it just shouldn't be a thing, and nobody should have to come out as anything. Yes, I know that's over-simplifying things.

Not oversimplified,  just not overdramatised. Your point about privacy  and the ' need' to come out is a very valid one.  One not often raised in this  signalling age. I'm this! I'm that !  I get more pleasure out of seeing some footballers  silly haircuts than knowing whether they are gay or not....neither have much, if any effect on their ability as a player but I know which brightens my day when I see one.   

[wcorkcanary 4,839]

43 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

i don't normally get aggressive, but I am sick to death of being accused of 'flaunting' it if I am openly gay, and this facile argument that straight people don't need to flaunt their sexuality, so why do gay people?

Do you imagine some straight players aren't 'flaunting' it with their trophy wives? And would you be happier if gay people just slunk back to the closet because their public visibility makes some people uncomfortable? And should we let this poor little snowflake bigotry guide our policy on this?

Yes, some of the fans would make homophobic chants just as some of them used to make racist chants (and still do in many other countries). But the onus isn't on gay players to prevent those chants by not being open about their lives; the onus is on the authorities to foster an atmosphere in grounds where those chants are unacceptable, just as they have with racist ones.

I like to think that people have changed and the bigots are now largely outnumbered. It's time for football to catch up.

 

It's also time for people to chill about something that is pretty much mission achieved. You won't  change some people's minds, in fact ,  they may be made more resolute by being told what to think , that's just some people's nature. Some points can be ' overmade' , people just stop listening. 

The overall groundswell of lbgtq+  acceptance  is encouraging,  but not all boats are lifted by  a rising  tide, some are kept on a short anchor chain of intolerance and will eventually be overcome by that tide, whether they like it or not.

 

Edited December 5, 2024 by wcorkcanary

[Robert N. LiM 6,442]

1 hour ago, wcorkcanary said:

It's also time for people to chill about something that is pretty much mission achieved

Not in football it's not.