Promotion a must this season.

[king canary 8,975]

16 hours ago, Ulfotto said:

But how to do that when Sainz, Sargent, Doyle and potentially Gunn are all going to leave?

We all said the same a few years back- how can we possibly challenge without James Maddison, Josh Murphy, Angus Gunn, Harrison Reed etc etc

[TheGunnShow 7,471]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

We all said the same a few years back- how can we possibly challenge without James Maddison, Josh Murphy, Angus Gunn, Harrison Reed etc etc

And Blackburn are doing OK this season after selling Wharton and Szmodics....

[Ulfotto 837]

54 minutes ago, king canary said:

We all said the same a few years back- how can we possibly challenge without James Maddison, Josh Murphy, Angus Gunn, Harrison Reed etc etc

I take that argument and counter it by saying the stats show it will be worse than if we sold Buendia and Pukki after getting promoted the second time under Farke. 
 

I get the argument we improve players sell them and then the cycle goes on. I think the issue is both players Sainz and Sargent are primarily attacking players. It’s not like offloading Godfrey and Lewis or Andy O and Aarons. It is a Pukki/Buendia situation.

Edited November 29, 2024 by Ulfotto

[Capt. Pants 5,160]

Personally I think this whole rebuild thing is a bit of a stretch. We buy players, then sell them rinse and repeat. This season is no different from any other. Sure we have another Head Coach with a change of tactics and playing style, but it's still football.

If we're rebuilding then so is pretty much every other team in the Championship.

Take Sainz out of our squad then it looks pretty toothless.

[Besthorpe-48 116]

But it sure is fun. A lot of what is said in this OP is predicated on the assumption that sargeant sainz and gunn will be sold and Doyle leave. From a group of people who by and large have advocated that our Kenny is not worth his place. Oddly disagreeing with 5 managers including the Scotland manager. So pardon me if I don't think you are right.

Now what was the question. How about enjoying the journey (in three wins scored 14 goals). We might make it we might not and if we don't then pukki has been replaced by sargeant. A whole string of keepers by gunn. Duncan forbes by Doyle. Errol crossing  by sainz. What goes round comes round.

 

 

 

 

[king canary 8,975]

57 minutes ago, Ulfotto said:

I take that argument and counter it by saying the stats show it will be worse than if we sold Buendia and Pukki after getting promoted the second time under Farke. 
 

I get the argument we improve players sell them and then the cycle goes on. I think the issue is both players Sainz and Sargent are primarily attacking players. It’s not like offloading Godfrey and Lewis or Andy O and Aarons. It is a Pukki/Buendia situation.

But so was the Maddison and Murphy situation. They scored 21 goals between them in a team that struggled to score and both left in the summer, along with Oliveria who scored 8 himself and left the next January after being frozen out. So statistically we let players responsible for 29 of our 49 goals and 12 assists leave.

Heck, even this past summer we saw a combined 31 goals and 16 assists leave between Rowe, Idah and Sara. 

 

[wcorkcanary 4,841]

52 minutes ago, Besthorpe-48 said:

But it sure is fun. A lot of what is said in this OP is predicated on the assumption that sargeant sainz and gunn will be sold and Doyle leave. From a group of people who by and large have advocated that our Kenny is not worth his place. Oddly disagreeing with 5 managers including the Scotland manager. So pardon me if I don't think you are right.

Now what was the question. How about enjoying the journey (in three wins scored 14 goals). We might make it we might not and if we don't then pukki has been replaced by sargeant. A whole string of keepers by gunn. Duncan forbes by Doyle. Errol crossing  by sainz. What goes round comes round.

 

 

 

 

It is precisely the combinations of ups and down that  the Japanese experience as harmony.

 

[Ulfotto 837]

26 minutes ago, king canary said:

But so was the Maddison and Murphy situation. They scored 21 goals between them in a team that struggled to score and both left in the summer, along with Oliveria who scored 8 himself and left the next January after being frozen out. So statistically we let players responsible for 29 of our 49 goals and 12 assists leave.

Heck, even this past summer we saw a combined 31 goals and 16 assists leave between Rowe, Idah and Sara. 

 

So the plan is to hope the 18/19 season happens again. That season was wildly unexpected and in my opinion a once in a lifetime ride of last minute winners and ridiculous matches. 

To me at times this season we have looked as good as we did under Farke we need to press that home in January as there is no guarantee that we can assemble players like Pukki, Krul, Buendia and McLean in one transfer window. As well having young players to match Aaron’s, Lewis, Cantwell and Godfrey in the academy.

[BigFish 2,333]

Oh, please. Every time we get a above decent player fans lose their **** about them being sold  Every time we don't have one fans lose their **** about not having one.  That said, there is a lot of sense amongst the nonsense on this thread re rebuilding. Every summer we put together the best collection of staff to win football matches. A number leave and a number come in. That said though, it takes a number of windows if you want to create a style/philosophy/project that is sustainable for the EPL, or at least have a chance. JHT is one window in, I suspect he needs 3 or 4. We might hit the play-offs, but we are clearly a long way from EPL ready. And before anyone demands signings this window, check the PSR figures. I suspect we need to sell before we buy.

 

Edited November 29, 2024 by BigFish

[Google Bot 4,003]

2 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Take Sainz out of our squad then it looks pretty toothless.

How can you say that when we've not see how we look without him?! 

He's getting the lion share of the chances, if he wasn't playing then they would be falling to someone else.  I think you need to give this squad more credit.

[repman 808]

I think this year is a rebuilding year, but that doesn't preclude us from being successful at the same time. It's not like in American sports where being bad can be beneficial, as you'll be rewarded with a high draft pick. If we do badly we will get relegated, which only causes more problems. 

The club is going to try to replicate what Brentford did, which is rooted in the idea that football is a weak link sport. Improving the squad overall will lead to greater results, rather than focusing on star players. Brentford lost their top scorer from both the 18/19 and 19/20 seasons yet improved year on year. Obviously we did similar going into 18/19 without Maddison and Murphy. 

We tried going all in last year and we found ourselves coming up short. With the financial rules as they are it doesn't seem sensible to keep doubling down on that strategy. Take a look at the league table right now, the top 4 sides all have a younger average age than us, and make up the top 5 (Stoke being the other one). We're not too far off, and actually I think that stat covers up the fact that our squad is maybe in a way younger, as those 4 sides basically don't play a player over the age of 30, whereas we have 3/4 players who are 32 at least which will drag that statistic up. Ignoring that aside, all those teams lost important players over the summer, Leeds are down 50 goals and assists from losing Rutter and Summerville. 

Another point I'd makes is look at last summer's transfer business, the 2 youngest players signed are the ones who have made the biggest leap this year (Sainz and Fisher). Imagine if we had signed 3 or 4 more of those types, maybe we wouldn't have been as good last year but you'd hope they could contribute more than Fassnacht, Forshaw, Barnes and Batth will this season. 

As a wise man once said 'football's an infinite game'. He left the club around this time last year.

[king canary 8,975]

2 hours ago, Ulfotto said:

So the plan is to hope the 18/19 season happens again. That season was wildly unexpected and in my opinion a once in a lifetime ride of last minute winners and ridiculous matches. 

To me at times this season we have looked as good as we did under Farke we need to press that home in January as there is no guarantee that we can assemble players like Pukki, Krul, Buendia and McLean in one transfer window. As well having young players to match Aaron’s, Lewis, Cantwell and Godfrey in the academy.

I'm not disagreeing that we should try and get promoted obviously. I just don't agree that it's a must- good players leave and get replaced all  the time. It isn't impossible to overcome. 

[S_81 1,139]

24 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'm not disagreeing that we should try and get promoted obviously. I just don't agree that it's a must- good players leave and get replaced all  the time. It isn't impossible to overcome. 

The replacement cycle is natural at Norwich. But it’s normally one good player. Perhaps two who depart. We’ve lost Sara, Rowe and will likely lose Sainz and Sargeant. We’ve yet to find same level replacement for the first two. Our signings look nowhere near at the level. I’m not sure why people believe we would find instant replacement for the latter two either. 
My concern is if Knapper isn’t as good as Webber when it comes to recruitment then the “rebuild” is more a case of either sudden or gradual deterioration. 
Take Sainz and Sargeant out of our team and we are far closer the bottom than the top. 

[hogesar 10,965]

27 minutes ago, S_81 said:

The replacement cycle is natural at Norwich. But it’s normally one good player. Perhaps two who depart. We’ve lost Sara, Rowe and will likely lose Sainz and Sargeant. We’ve yet to find same level replacement for the first two. Our signings look nowhere near at the level. I’m not sure why people believe we would find instant replacement for the latter two either. 
My concern is if Knapper isn’t as good as Webber when it comes to recruitment then the “rebuild” is more a case of either sudden or gradual deterioration. 
Take Sainz and Sargeant out of our team and we are far closer the bottom than the top. 

Yeah, pretty spot on.

Although we are dealing with lots of unknowns so it's hard to judge at this stage.

Edited November 29, 2024 by hogesar

[percy varco 254]

That would be bad where we currently are. 
need another season, another striker but will need to live without Sainz who will be off in the summer even if we get promotion, which I hope we do not

[repman 808]

42 minutes ago, S_81 said:

The replacement cycle is natural at Norwich. But it’s normally one good player. Perhaps two who depart. We’ve lost Sara, Rowe and will likely lose Sainz and Sargeant. We’ve yet to find same level replacement for the first two. Our signings look nowhere near at the level. I’m not sure why people believe we would find instant replacement for the latter two either. 
My concern is if Knapper isn’t as good as Webber when it comes to recruitment then the “rebuild” is more a case of either sudden or gradual deterioration. 
Take Sainz and Sargeant out of our team and we are far closer the bottom than the top. 

The recruitment team is pretty much exactly as built out by Webber. The replacement cycle is natural as you say, but would you have pegged Sainz as a likely 20 goal player this time last year? I don’t think there were too many people believing Sargent would become what he has in his first season at the club. Sara didn’t start a league game in central midfield until December.

These things can take time and all our best players now have replaced some of our best players from before. The recruitment team (as I said built out by Webber) have been doing this for years now. I don’t understand why people want to suddenly doubt them. 

We sign young players, and sell the best 1 or 2 every summer. This has pretty much been the strategy every year since Webber first joined, bar last season. My view has always been that the transfer business has remained broadly good but we’ve lacked over recent seasons in terms of coaching. I wasn’t a huge fan of the style of last summer’s recruitment as for every action there is an equal and opposite one. By shifting older we would have to end up going the other way dramatically sooner rather than later. Promotion could’ve maybe delayed the process but that never seemed like a probably outcome to me.

[Big Vince 432]

To get to the EPL and remain there it will be necessary to build a strong side from the back. I can't see that ever happening with these supporters, so Championship selling club Norwich City will remain.

[Big Vince 432]

2 hours ago, S_81 said:

The replacement cycle is natural at Norwich. But it’s normally one good player. Perhaps two who depart. We’ve lost Sara, Rowe and will likely lose Sainz and Sargeant. We’ve yet to find same level replacement for the first two. Our signings look nowhere near at the level. I’m not sure why people believe we would find instant replacement for the latter two either. 
My concern is if Knapper isn’t as good as Webber when it comes to recruitment then the “rebuild” is more a case of either sudden or gradual deterioration. 
Take Sainz and Sargeant out of our team and we are far closer the bottom than the top. 

Napper isn't as good as Webber, yet fans prefer Napper to Webber. This illustrates perfectly why decision makers at football clubs should never, ever listen to supporters. The club's most successful ever period came when fans were rightly bounced around by the owner.

[wcorkcanary 4,841]

I don't think Sargent is going anywhere soon,  except back to hospital/ treatment table after maybe 10 or 12 games ...which is why I can't see a big queue of bidders. I'd be amazed if once he returns he makes it to season end without missing at least 4 games. I like him and feel he makes us better but the poor lad is a bit fragile. ...hence we won't get any big offers. 

[Iwans Big Toe 387]

On 28/11/2024 at 20:29, Ulfotto said:

Can’t help thinking that this season represents one of club best chances to get back to the premier league. Lots of the talk of  it’s a transition season blah blah. I appreciate the messaging and the sentiment with JHT needing time. The main reason I say it’s a must this season is the goals and assists numbers.

Sargent, Sainz and Doyle are three players who more than likely wouldn’t be here next season unless we are promoted . So far they have contributed 19 goals this season and 12 assists. I know the recruitment team can pull rabbits out of hats but I just don’t see how we replace those numbers in one transfer window.  Throw in the likely departure of Gunn. It’s more than likely if we don’t go up this season next season is more a rebuilding season than this one.

I am not sure about anyone else but no team so far has looked that impressive against us. If have some money to spend time to shell out a bit in January as it’s probably now or not for at least a couple of years.

This squad will win as many as they lose. We will finish mid table, not troubling the play offs or the relegation zone. We will lose one or two of our best players in the summer (no one is going anywhere in January unless someone offers us £50m up front). And as such, we should not be shelling out to try and get promoted this season, as it will end in disaster.

We finally have owners with a little bit of financial backing. In relative terms they took the Brewers to repeated play offs after doing the same thing, taking over a family run team and turning them it to competitors. Of course this isn't a guarantee of success, but if you want to see my history in relating baseball to football, please see my post from 8 years ago that was **** pooed at the time -

https://forum.pinkun.com/index.php?/topic/109256-moneyball/&tab=comments#comment-1680964

It still remains my opinion (and now apparently the opinion of many of those who did not agree at the time).

Edited November 29, 2024 by Iwans Big Toe

[DraytonBoy 256]

The squad is miles away from being ready for the PL and MA isn't going to splash enough cash for survival should by some miracle City get promoted in May. This season and next will be steady progression with the integration and progress of the younger players as well as a clear out of the older members of the squad (McLean, Hernandez, Hanley, Duffy, Barnes and Fassnacht), I expect Sainz, Sargent and Gunn to go within the next year so by the summer of 2026 City will have one of the youngest squads in the Championship.

[Helsinki canary 312]

10 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

I don't think Sargent is going anywhere soon,  except back to hospital/ treatment table after maybe 10 or 12 games ...which is why I can't see a big queue of bidders. I'd be amazed if once he returns he makes it to season end without missing at least 4 games. I like him and feel he makes us better but the poor lad is a bit fragile. ...hence we won't get any big offers. 

This is my view, no big club will want to take a big money risk on a player who appears to be injury prone

Edited November 30, 2024 by Helsinki canary

[Capt. Pants 5,160]

16 hours ago, repman said:

I think this year is a rebuilding year, but that doesn't preclude us from being successful at the same time. It's not like in American sports where being bad can be beneficial, as you'll be rewarded with a high draft pick. If we do badly we will get relegated, which only causes more problems. 

The club is going to try to replicate what Brentford did, which is rooted in the idea that football is a weak link sport. Improving the squad overall will lead to greater results, rather than focusing on star players. Brentford lost their top scorer from both the 18/19 and 19/20 seasons yet improved year on year. Obviously we did similar going into 18/19 without Maddison and Murphy. 

We tried going all in last year and we found ourselves coming up short. With the financial rules as they are it doesn't seem sensible to keep doubling down on that strategy. Take a look at the league table right now, the top 4 sides all have a younger average age than us, and make up the top 5 (Stoke being the other one). We're not too far off, and actually I think that stat covers up the fact that our squad is maybe in a way younger, as those 4 sides basically don't play a player over the age of 30, whereas we have 3/4 players who are 32 at least which will drag that statistic up. Ignoring that aside, all those teams lost important players over the summer, Leeds are down 50 goals and assists from losing Rutter and Summerville. 

Another point I'd makes is look at last summer's transfer business, the 2 youngest players signed are the ones who have made the biggest leap this year (Sainz and Fisher). Imagine if we had signed 3 or 4 more of those types, maybe we wouldn't have been as good last year but you'd hope they could contribute more than Fassnacht, Forshaw, Barnes and Batth will this season. 

As a wise man once said 'football's an infinite game'. He left the club around this time last year.

Yeah some good points. What we also need is quality coming through from the U21s to supplement players we can afford to buy. Potentially that looks like Miles, Forsyth and Hills at the moment. Ideally I'd like to see a few more, especially a striker. We've done pretty well with young players coming through in the past and it's going to be hugely important with our financial constraints going forward.

Sounds doable until you realise NCFC isn't in a vaccume and is now competing with all other Championship clubs who will do exactly the same thing.

[Ernie Wise 119]

Nunez out of contract at the end of next season? Another hole to fill at the end of this season if he is sold or risk losing him for nothing at the end of next season?

[lake district canary 4,879]

Yes, the Premier League is an awful league, I know the championship is more fun, but the aim of each match is to win it - and if you win enough you get promoted - so that must still be the aim.  Thorup has said what matters to him is the performance of the team each match - and that is understandable too - but the two go side by side - perform well and you will win most of your matches - and that will lead to promotion, so we shouldn't imo be thinking "its just a rebuild season" - it is what it is.....a season where we aim to do as well as we can - and if we carry on improving and out performing othter teams each week, we will likely get that promotion.

If we get promoted, it's a whole new ball game - and you can forget the farce of the last two times we were in the PL where Farke was shafted by lack of decent players, injuries and covid in his first season...and shafted again in the second by having to rebuild a team after losing his two best players and seeing them replaced by two young and green players who were nowhere near ready for the PL, the Todwell saga and wee Billy who was simply not up to the task either.  So take Webber out of the equation and maybe things will be different next time - Knapper and Anastasio will ensure a more professional approach should we get there. 

So really all I am suggesting is not to base your opinion about the PL on our past - Brentford proved it can be done - you have to look at it positively, understand what happened in the past, but don't get hung up on it. We are a different club now - Anastasio, Knapper, Thorup and most of the players are the evidence for that. 

It's exciting times, we have a good set up, don't let the PL put you off the idea of promotion, this season or next - getting there is what success means - and we worry about the PL when we get there.

Edited November 30, 2024 by lake district canary

[Capt. Pants 5,160]

33 minutes ago, Ernie Wise said:

Nunez out of contract at the end of next season? Another hole to fill at the end of this season if he is sold or risk losing him for nothing at the end of next season?

Nunez is 2026

[Ernie Wise 119]

57 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Nunez is 2026

Yes, as I said the end of next season.

[Harry53 229]

The last thing we want is to go up this season if we are not prepared. I see this season as one to build on, give it another season to bring on the youngsters and get more quality in squad depth, then in 2026 we go for promotion, with the caviate that we have the ability to stay there.

I am not a Norfolk guy but appreciate local rivalry, and having watched Ipswich last weekend on tv I see  how good they are, and yet they are most likely to come back down. We have a long way to before we are ready, lets hope when we are, it is for more than one season.

[Capt. Pants 5,160]

The Binners do or will change the dynamic slightly whether stay up or are relegated.

We need the revenue from a Premier League promotion to create the space for Attanasio and crew to invest in the playing staff. ASAP really.

Personally I think it's cloud cuckoo land to think that we can grow organically to have a Premier League competitive squad. That's the sad state of football but it is what it is.

[hogesar 10,965]

17 hours ago, repman said:

The recruitment team is pretty much exactly as built out by Webber. The replacement cycle is natural as you say, but would you have pegged Sainz as a likely 20 goal player this time last year? I don’t think there were too many people believing Sargent would become what he has in his first season at the club. Sara didn’t start a league game in central midfield until December.

These things can take time and all our best players now have replaced some of our best players from before. The recruitment team (as I said built out by Webber) have been doing this for years now. I don’t understand why people want to suddenly doubt them. 

I call it the Sydney Van Hooijdonk effect