Long

[Branston Pickle 4,172]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yeah but the first shot was a penalty because he made a pretty diabolical decision to be fair

That’s not really the point though, unless you’re after a stick to beat him with* - it was still a penalty so much more than merely a shot that was straight at him.

*As many are, of course.

Edited October 22, 2024 by Branston Pickle

[hogesar 10,968]

1 minute ago, Branston Pickle said:

That’s not really the point though, unless you’re after a stick to beat him with. As many are, of course.

Well, I'm hardly one to do that but he made a terrible decision and that was what gave the penalty way so it is sort of the point. It's part of goalkeeping ultimately

[Branston Pickle 4,172]

21 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Well, I'm hardly one to do that but he made a terrible decision and that was what gave the penalty way so it is sort of the point. It's part of goalkeeping ultimately

Yes he gave the penalty away, a rash decision, but it feels a strange notion that he should therefore save it any more than if it were Cordoba or Duffy who had fouled.

Imo it was a well taken spot kick, not a shot that ‘should have been saved’ because it was straight at him.  It is slightly bizarre that part of the criticism of him tonight is that he didn’t save a (well taken) penalty. There’s plenty else to go after, after all. 

Edited October 22, 2024 by Branston Pickle

[Monty13 2,811]

I don’t think Long is a good championship keeper, but then he’s our backup so…yea.

He’s made a big error today but then so do a lot of keepers, especially when getting up to speed. Krul always looked like he had one in him and he was a far superior keeper.

I feel like there’s a lot of confirmation bias going on. He was doing a lot right against Swansea.

He’s exactly what he is IMO. The sort of quality we can afford to sit on the bench and usually never play. We should know what we get for that, the days of having a really good number 2 are long gone, at least till we make a Premier League return.

I think we’ve been spoilt with backups for a long while. The fact McGovern was prepared to basically never play always made me wonder why, he was a quality keeper and he ended up our 3rd choice.

[TheGunnShow 7,471]

That second goal didn't look good - you'll not find a better example of a goalie's reach exceeding his grasp than that. Played all round it.

First goal - anyone blaming him for not saving the penalty hasn't got a clue. The problem was a very ill-advised rush out to a striker going away from goal. That looked like the classic "too pumped up" sort of move from a nervous stopper coming in.

[Jim Smith 2,673]

For me he’s a big issue. He’s only saving 40% of shots he’s facing this season. I don’t know what is a normal save % for a pro keeper but that strikes me as very low. Last season was a bit better but still not convincing.

The tell take sign is how many shots seem to be going in that aren’t in the corners. That always worries me. 

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,712]

6 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

For me he’s a big issue. He’s only saving 40% of shots he’s facing this season. I don’t know what is a normal save % for a pro keeper but that strikes me as very low. Last season was a bit better but still not convincing.

The tell take sign is how many shots seem to be going in that aren’t in the corners. That always worries me. 

True.. but often Gunn is beaten in a similar fashion. I think GK position is one that requires improvement. Shame we didn’t go after the Stoke keeper from Rotherham, he looks quality.

[Jim Smith 2,673]

7 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

True.. but often Gunn is beaten in a similar fashion. I think GK position is one that requires improvement. Shame we didn’t go after the Stoke keeper from Rotherham, he looks quality.

With Long I don’t think it’s positioning particularly, he just doesn’t seem to reach/get shots you’d expect him to. They seem to beat him for pace or go through him. 

Shame we sent Reyes out on loan really. 

Edited October 23, 2024 by Jim Smith

[Rottingdean canary 150]

17 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Shame we sent Reyes out on loan really. 

I hope it will turn out well. Reyes is a regular starter for Cambridge United in League One. Kept a clean sheet away to Stevenage last night. Maybe he will prove good enough for first choice next season if Angus doesn't sign a new contract. 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,486]

Nice chap. Not bad feet. Not great hands.

Parma 

[king canary 8,991]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

That second goal didn't look good - you'll not find a better example of a goalie's reach exceeding his grasp than that. Played all round it.

First goal - anyone blaming him for not saving the penalty hasn't got a clue. The problem was a very ill-advised rush out to a striker going away from goal. That looked like the classic "too pumped up" sort of move from a nervous stopper coming in.

Nobody has blamed him for not saving the penalty- I'm not sure where this idea has come from.

They've blamed him for giving it away and blamed him for conceding another shot that was almost straight at him (the second goal).

Reading comprehension on here has gone off the boil of late it seems (not aimed at you @TheGunnShow)

[Midlands Yellow 4,721]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

Nobody has blamed him for not saving the penalty- I'm not sure where this idea has come from.

They've blamed him for giving it away and blamed him for conceding another shot that was almost straight at him (the second goal).

Reading comprehension on here has gone off the boil of late it seems (not aimed at you @TheGunnShow)

Exactly, the only issue is giving the penalty away in the first place. Close to being a red too, they’d have been no coming back then. 

[TheGunnShow 7,471]

6 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Exactly, the only issue is giving the penalty away in the first place. Close to being a red too, they’d have been no coming back then. 

Nope, the double-jeopardy rule meant a red was never on the cards once the penalty was given. And to be honest, considering Riis was running away from goal and a defender was close by, even if Long had flattened him outside the box it would have been borderline at most for red.

12 minutes ago, king canary said:

Nobody has blamed him for not saving the penalty- I'm not sure where this idea has come from.

They've blamed him for giving it away and blamed him for conceding another shot that was almost straight at him (the second goal).

Reading comprehension on here has gone off the boil of late it seems (not aimed at you @TheGunnShow)

Fair point, I didn't read the comments fully beforehand and just saw the blame for two goals.

[Bobzilla 210]

12 hours ago, Peregrine Shorts said:

Simon Tracey was better than Long!

That's quite the claim...  I reckon George Weah's cousin would have been better...

[hogesar 10,968]

18 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Exactly, the only issue is giving the penalty away in the first place. Close to being a red too, they’d have been no coming back then. 

No, it wasn't close to being a red

[Midlands Yellow 4,721]

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

No, it wasn't close to being a red

That’s fair enough, I stand corrected.

[Branston Pickle 4,172]

43 minutes ago, king canary said:

Nobody has blamed him for not saving the penalty- I'm not sure where this idea has come from.

They've blamed him for giving it away and blamed him for conceding another shot that was almost straight at him (the second goal).

Reading comprehension on here has gone off the boil of late it seems (not aimed at you @TheGunnShow)

That isn’t true - there were several comments thet he missed two shots “straight at him” ie including the penalty; I don’t have time/can’t be arsed to track through the posts to see who it was, but rest assured they were there.  There’s plenty of ammo that can be used against any keeper, but saving/not saving penalties isn’t one of them.

Edited October 23, 2024 by Branston Pickle

[king canary 8,991]

23 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

That isn’t true - there were several comments thet he missed two shots “straight at him” ie including the penalty; I don’t have time/can’t be arsed to track through the posts to see who it was, but rest assured they were there.  There’s plenty of ammo that can be used against any keeper, but saving/not saving penalties isn’t one of them.

That was my post and it isn't what it said- you just miscomprehended it. I said his defenders should be able to trust he'll save shots 'straight at him' I wasn't claiming he should have saved the penalty.

[Branston Pickle 4,172]

35 minutes ago, king canary said:

That was my post and it isn't what it said- you just miscomprehended it. I said his defenders should be able to trust he'll save shots 'straight at him' I wasn't claiming he should have saved the penalty.

I think there were plenty saying the penalty was straight at him suggesting he should have saved it.  If no one else, my son certainly did!

Edited October 23, 2024 by Branston Pickle

[Feedthewolf 5,932]

3 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

That second goal didn't look good - you'll not find a better example of a goalie's reach exceeding his grasp than that. Played all round it.

First goal - anyone blaming him for not saving the penalty hasn't got a clue. The problem was a very ill-advised rush out to a striker going away from goal. That looked like the classic "too pumped up" sort of move from a nervous stopper coming in.

Exactly this. I'm always impressed with – and in agreement with – your posts about goalkeeping. You clearly know your onion(bag)s.

[TheGunnShow 7,471]

44 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Exactly this. I'm always impressed with – and in agreement with – your posts about goalkeeping. You clearly know your onion(bag)s.

Thanks, Wolfy. To be fair, there's a hell of a lot of low-level experience in two different countries, albeit mainly in five-a-side and seven-a-side goalkeeping. Have played a fair bit of elevens, but I'm very short as far as full-sized goals go so whilst I can stand in and do a competent job, it's a problem when you're 5'8 and slim at that. And that was after a bloody growth spurt - I was barely over 5ft until I was 16 so it wasn't a surprise I naturally gravitated towards smaller-sided games in goal.

I did say in another thread recently that I'd hacked off Nicky Adams, a former Wales U21 international, in a fives match, and Simon Whaley's faced me as well as asked me to bail out his old teams there a few times too. 

But yeah, I'm more of a fives expert in goal than an elevens. That said, fives is all about blocking shots so you could argue it's a stripped back form of play, and the Long discussion is about the shots going in. 

Edited October 23, 2024 by TheGunnShow

[Ian 1,228]

47 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Exactly this. I'm always impressed with – and in agreement with – your posts about goalkeeping. You clearly know your onion(bag)s.

I always feel for backup keepers, very often they're thrown into the cut and thrust of competitive football with minimal notice, having not played a proper match for weeks or months. They are then, generally, not given any leeway or consideration for the fact they are unlikely to be match sharp or settled into the role, often at odds with players in other roles where it is accepted it may take them a few matches to get up to their peak performance level.

Long certainly didn't cover himself in glory last night, but I seem to recall that Gunn and Krul both seemed to take sometime to settle into the role and made several bad errors in early performances or returning from injuries.

[TheGunnShow 7,471]

2 minutes ago, Ian said:

I always feel for backup keepers, very often they're thrown into the cut and thrust of competitive football with minimal notice, having not played a proper match for weeks or months. They are then, generally, not given any leeway or consideration for the fact they are unlikely to be match sharp or settled into the role, often at odds with players in other roles where it is accepted it may take them a few matches to get up to their peak performance level.

Long certainly didn't cover himself in glory last night, but I seem to recall that Gunn and Krul both seemed to take sometime to settle into the role and made several bad errors in early performances or returning from injuries.

Krul was very rusty indeed in his first ten or so games for us and even at his best he could throw in a "cover your eyes moment" in possession now and again. And to be fair to Long, he started poorly for us last season but did OK in the last two or three games of that spell.

[Robert N. LiM 6,459]

12 hours ago, hogesar said:

based on their xG we should have conceded about 2 goals anyway. 

Does that xG include the penalty?

[Segura 102]

46 minutes ago, Ian said:

I always feel for backup keepers, very often they're thrown into the cut and thrust of competitive football with minimal notice, having not played a proper match for weeks or months. They are then, generally, not given any leeway or consideration for the fact they are unlikely to be match sharp or settled into the role, often at odds with players in other roles where it is accepted it may take them a few matches to get up to their peak performance level.

Long certainly didn't cover himself in glory last night, but I seem to recall that Gunn and Krul both seemed to take sometime to settle into the role and made several bad errors in early performances or returning from injuries.

Very much agree with all of this.

For me, the Stoke goal was an example of a goalkeeper who was not fully match sharp - his positioning was possibly a bit out, he seemed to react a split second too slowly to the fact that their player was shaping to shoot. I've said this in another threat - that goal was not a howler, but a Premiership / good champs keeper saves it.

I get it the criticism, but it feels a bit over the top. Last season, I recall Long played 10 or so games during a difficult period with Srage out. After a dodgy start, I thought he generally looked ok having got some match sharpness. Nothing more, nothing less than ok, but what exactly do people expect for a backup champs keeper? 

[Mutley 190]

5 hours ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

True.. but often Gunn is beaten in a similar fashion. I think GK position is one that requires improvement. Shame we didn’t go after the Stoke keeper from Rotherham, he looks quality.

Yes, Johansson looks quality. I noticed that he made another brilliant save last night in their game.

[king canary 8,991]

23 minutes ago, Segura said:

Very much agree with all of this.

For me, the Stoke goal was an example of a goalkeeper who was not fully match sharp - his positioning was possibly a bit out, he seemed to react a split second too slowly to the fact that their player was shaping to shoot. I've said this in another threat - that goal was not a howler, but a Premiership / good champs keeper saves it.

I get it the criticism, but it feels a bit over the top. Last season, I recall Long played 10 or so games during a difficult period with Srage out. After a dodgy start, I thought he generally looked ok having got some match sharpness. Nothing more, nothing less than ok, but what exactly do people expect for a backup champs keeper? 

To be decent shot stoppers as a minimum. People keep saying 'yeah but he's a backup' but he's a poor even for a back up. I can forgive rustiness and I agree the Stoke goal was a tough one for him but rustiness doesn't excuse the second goal last night- you expect keepers to make that save 99 times out of 100. 

Essentially he lets in far too many goals for the shots he faces, even in comparison to other backups in the division. 

[chicken 3,142]

1 hour ago, Ian said:

I always feel for backup keepers, very often they're thrown into the cut and thrust of competitive football with minimal notice, having not played a proper match for weeks or months. They are then, generally, not given any leeway or consideration for the fact they are unlikely to be match sharp or settled into the role, often at odds with players in other roles where it is accepted it may take them a few matches to get up to their peak performance level.

Long certainly didn't cover himself in glory last night, but I seem to recall that Gunn and Krul both seemed to take sometime to settle into the role and made several bad errors in early performances or returning from injuries.

Add to that they may want to be the 1st choice so want to impress. Had he made the challenge and cleared the ball it may well have gotten plaudits.

I'm TGS, ill advised, but once you've committed it's all or nothing. A moment of indecision as you come out can be as dangerous. That's not to let him off, but once he's gone, he's got to go through with it.

Edit: I will also add that in my view, goalie is the most undervalued and harshest position to play. In good, solid defensive sides, communication and distribution are the main assets. But in any team, no matter how few mistakes you make, keepers get punished more. As a midfielder you can get mugged but know you might get another bite at it when the player, or play is held up by the defence. As a defender, you can make a mistake but know the player usually still has to beat the keeper. 9 times out of 10, a defensive mistake as a keeper leads at least to a shot on goal, if not a goal itself.

The less competant the defence is in front of you, the more you are tested and the larger the chance of error there is. And it becomes more pressured, not less.

Edited October 23, 2024 by chicken

[Mr Angry 2,103]

13 hours ago, Corbs1 said:

Long turned to acknowledge the chants, which is your answer. 

Yeah, I saw that, not sure what answer that gives though.

[CANARYKING 720]

If we go a goal down on Sunday the crowd reaction will be interesting