The Last 2 Home Attendances

[essex canary 630]

38 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

 

The comparison with the 80s is comparing apples with pears. If you think that’s relevant then my first game was 41,000 and the very next Saturday the gate was 13,015. It’s entirely possible the same amount of ST holders attended both games.

 

Probably so. The ratio of season tickets was very low so the Club had to rely largely on the income from the casuals who wouldn't pay unless they attended the match. It is better that way. The Club should not be entitled to retain money from non attendees. Then again paying it to them directly for non-attendance isn't reasonable either.

[wcorkcanary 4,828]

5 hours ago, essex canary said:

Probably so. The ratio of season tickets was very low so the Club had to rely largely on the income from the casuals who wouldn't pay unless they attended the match. It is better that way. The Club should not be entitled to retain money from non attendees. Then again paying it to them directly for non-attendance isn't reasonable either.

And so says the man who tried to reclaim a refund on a free ticket. Your  hypocrisy knows no bounds, just have a look at the virtuous shoite you spout , compared to your actions. No wonder you're a laughing stock. 

Edited October 18, 2024 by wcorkcanary

[GMF 1,043]

8 hours ago, essex canary said:

The Club should not be entitled to retain money from non attendees. Then again paying it to them directly for non-attendance isn't reasonable either.

Respectfully, that is complete nonsense.

The concept of a season ticket is to offer supporters the best deal to be able to attend all 23 (or 19) league games the next season. Those prices are discounted significantly in comparison to the alternative of fans having to acquire individual tickets on a game by game basis.

The Club has the obligation to make that seat available to the supporter for each league match. It’s not compulsory for supporters to attend every match, but there’s no automatic entitlement for reimbursement in the event of non attendance either.

That’s the contract entered into freely by both parties in advance of the season. The buyback scheme is a means to potentially get some money back, in the event of non-attendance, but also give casual supporters the opportunity to get a match that they otherwise might not be able to see.

[essex canary 630]

38 minutes ago, GMF said:

Respectfully, that is complete nonsense.

The concept of a season ticket is to offer supporters the best deal to be able to attend all 23 (or 19) league games the next season. Those prices are discounted significantly in comparison to the alternative of fans having to acquire individual tickets on a game by game basis.

The Club has the obligation to make that seat available to the supporter for each league match. It’s not compulsory for supporters to attend every match, but there’s no automatic entitlement for reimbursement in the event of non attendance either.

That’s the contract entered into freely by both parties in advance of the season. The buyback scheme is a means to potentially get some money back, in the event of non-attendance, but also give casual supporters the opportunity to get a match that they otherwise might not be able to see.

Fair enough but as per your end sentence the desirable outcome is the seat being filled and the Club retaining only one receipt for it alongside any reasonable costs associated with the swap process. That desirable outcome needs to be incentivised (better than at present).

[GMF 1,043]

1 minute ago, essex canary said:

the desirable outcome is the seat being filled and the Club retaining only one receipt for it alongside any reasonable costs associated with the swap process.

Are you basically saying that the STH should subsidise the casual fan who would otherwise be paying the casual seat price? This would be nonsensical if that’s what you are saying! 

[essex canary 630]

10 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

This reads like a lame set of excuses. Perhaps you could add ‘the dog ate my homework’

The comparison with the 80s is comparing apples with pears. If you think that’s relevant then my first game was 41,000 and the very next Saturday the gate was 13,015. It’s entirely possible the same amount of ST holders attended both games.

So what is your experience of the folk you talk to in and around where you sit? Mine is that since the pandemic there hasn’t been the same commitment to attend as before. But then you have to consider that some didn’t attend for nearly two and a half seasons.

I don’t have any answers, I don’t think any of us do. But I’m pretty sure the answer isn’t to offer more money to people who can afford to pick and choose their games as it is.

It is interesting to look at the Archive for April 1972. This indicates 2,965 season ticket holders. There are 2 different attendance figures given for each of the 3 much in demand home matches that month. These suggest absent season ticket holders for those matches were respectively 162, 177 and 102. 

Based on what the set up is now you can multiply those numbers by 7 then add more on for less high profile matches, the sky effect and other societal changes. It is clear how it adds up.

[Matt Juler 215]

I'd prefer for there to be a more modest rebate, say £10 for an adult ticket, but for them to go on sale immediately when you initiate the buyback.

Living 3 hours from Carrow Road with two primary school aged kids, getting to midweek games is impossible.  We always offer the season tickets to Norwich local friends and family first when we can't make it, but from our experience it's actually this demographic of more casual fans that are most influenced by all the midweek games being shown on TV.  It's now getting harder to find people who want to go, perhaps that will change if HoffBall continues to prosper, but that's how it is at the moment.

For me, if I can get to Carrow Road I'll be there regardless of whether or not the game is on TV, it's just a positive that if I can't make it, like for Leeds, I can watch it without having to find a stream.

[Greavsy 2,660]

1 hour ago, GMF said:

This would be nonsensical if that’s what you are saying! 

Wouldn't be the first time.......

[NewNestCarrow 303]

13 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

This reads like a lame set of excuses. Perhaps you could add ‘the dog ate my homework’

So what is your experience of the folk you talk to in and around where you sit? Mine is that since the pandemic there hasn’t been the same commitment to attend as before. But then you have to consider that some didn’t attend for nearly two and a half seasons.

I don’t have any answers, I don’t think any of us do. But I’m pretty sure the answer isn’t to offer more money to people who can afford to pick and choose their games as it is.

If real life has never got in the way of you attending CR  then you are truly blessed.

The "lame set of excuses" are all genuine and represent the reality of the modern-day fan.

 

[nutty nigel 7,962]

9 minutes ago, NewNestCarrow said:

If real life has never got in the way of you attending CR  then you are truly blessed.

The "lame set of excuses" are all genuine and represent the reality of the modern-day fan.

 

If the modern day fan's reality is that they can't use a season ticket all season then it may be that the season ticket isn't the correct option in the first place.

[NewNestCarrow 303]

56 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

If the modern day fan's reality is that they can't use a season ticket all season then it may be that the season ticket isn't the correct option in the first place.

So, in your view, what is the acceptable number of matches per season a ST holder can miss?  

[essex canary 630]

4 hours ago, GMF said:

Are you basically saying that the STH should subsidise the casual fan who would otherwise be paying the casual seat price? This would be nonsensical if that’s what you are saying! 

It is non-sensical that generally younger casual fans have to pay higher prices for poorer quality seating when generally older  ST holders don't, or are not sufficiently encouraged to, recycle their seats.

Club policy is ageist in this context as my AD experience reinforces.

[nutty nigel 7,962]

52 minutes ago, NewNestCarrow said:

So, in your view, what is the acceptable number of matches per season a ST holder can miss?  

I don’t know and that isn’t the point.

How many do you miss?

Your modern day fan’s reality seems to be buying a season ticket in the knowledge that it’s only going to be used for some of the games. But for the games it’s not used your modern day fan expects our club to resell the seat and pay them compensation.

Scrap the buyback and donate the ticket to one of the charities GMF mentioned earlier in the thread.

[GMF 1,043]

1 hour ago, essex canary said:

It is non-sensical that generally younger casual fans have to pay higher prices for poorer quality seating when generally older  ST holders don't, or are not sufficiently encouraged to, recycle their seats.

Club policy is ageist in this context as my AD experience reinforces.

It’s standard practice for all clubs to offer the best pricing deals to STH, with higher prices therefore charged to casual fans. It’s always been that way and it’s not going to change.

And, contrary to your statement, there’s far more casual seats available in standard areas, with unrestricted viewing, than in the corner areas, although, of course, they generally tend to be purchased first. But you’re wrong to suggest that the unrestricted view seats always sell out (they don’t) and that younger fans are somehow only sold the poorer, restricted view seats. That’s yet another example of stick waving by you! 

[aBee 176]

On 14/10/2024 at 11:04, Robert N. LiM said:

@aBee Brentford have quite a brutal scheme for ST no-shows, don't they? Not saying we could or should implement such a scheme at CR, but it does seem to me to be the case that ST holders not turning up is preventing more casual fans (who of course might be ST holders of the future) getting into games. And it's only going to get worse if the current model of 12.30 kick-offs continues.

It’s badly branded (I’m on the supporters association exec and we did tell them!). The club issues a Yellow Card for STs who didn’t attend, transfer to someone who did, or placed on the ticket exchange >36 hours before kick off (or if later, it was unsold). If listed >7 days before matchday the club guarantees
 

If a ST accumulates >4 YCs by the renewal date the club can reject renewal but there is an appeal process for each YC and at renewal. IIRC the only appeal that failed last season was from a fan who didn’t reply to repeated requests for information to support their appeal. Most of the successful appeals were from fans with ill-health/caring responsibilities who had intended to attend but at short notice due to those issues were unable. 
 

Branding aside (which still gets fans’ backs up, particularly when issued in error) it has been very effective. In 21-22 before its introduction we averaged 1000 unused STs per match. That’s fallen to about 200. Apart from the resale revenue which the club likes (they resell at full member price) this equates to about a 25% increase in tickets available to members. I rarely see complaints from members that they can’t get tickets now. That was a major whinge before the scheme. It also means members have a good chance of seats in the more popular parts of the ground. 
 

There are still a few STs who take the “I’ve come for years, I can do what I want with my ticket and they’ll be begging me to renew if we go down” line but not many. In a smallish ground which sells out regularly and can’t realistically expand it works well. 

[Robert N. LiM 6,419]

8 minutes ago, aBee said:

There are still a few STs who take the “I’ve come for years, I can do what I want with my ticket and they’ll be begging me to renew if we go down” line but not many. In a smallish ground which sells out regularly and can’t realistically expand it works well. 

Cheers, really appreciate the full reply. I don't think Brentford's and Norwich's situations are directly comparable for many of the reasons you allude to here, but it's very interesting to hear how other clubs are approaching a similar issue.

[essex canary 630]

17 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Cheers, really appreciate the full reply. I don't think Brentford's and Norwich's situations are directly comparable for many of the reasons you allude to here, but it's very interesting to hear how other clubs are approaching a similar issue.

Proactive rather than brutal then. Whatever the NCFC differences are, can the NCFC approach be described as 'proactive'?

[shefcanary 3,061]

1 hour ago, aBee said:

It’s badly branded (I’m on the supporters association exec and we did tell them!). The club issues a Yellow Card for STs who didn’t attend, transfer to someone who did, or placed on the ticket exchange >36 hours before kick off (or if later, it was unsold). If listed >7 days before matchday the club guarantees
 

If a ST accumulates >4 YCs by the renewal date the club can reject renewal but there is an appeal process for each YC and at renewal. IIRC the only appeal that failed last season was from a fan who didn’t reply to repeated requests for information to support their appeal. Most of the successful appeals were from fans with ill-health/caring responsibilities who had intended to attend but at short notice due to those issues were unable. 
 

Branding aside (which still gets fans’ backs up, particularly when issued in error) it has been very effective. In 21-22 before its introduction we averaged 1000 unused STs per match. That’s fallen to about 200. Apart from the resale revenue which the club likes (they resell at full member price) this equates to about a 25% increase in tickets available to members. I rarely see complaints from members that they can’t get tickets now. That was a major whinge before the scheme. It also means members have a good chance of seats in the more popular parts of the ground. 
 

There are still a few STs who take the “I’ve come for years, I can do what I want with my ticket and they’ll be begging me to renew if we go down” line but not many. In a smallish ground which sells out regularly and can’t realistically expand it works well. 

Thanks for the info. The key thing here though is that Brentford is potentially subject to the whims of London based plastics, who don't really support the club but have ST's mainly for the away teams! As I see it the "branding" seems to have sorted that issue out already; you would hope now that this would be slowly dropped now that it is proven most, if not all, ST's are in true fans hands!

[aBee 176]

1 hour ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Cheers, really appreciate the full reply. I don't think Brentford's and Norwich's situations are directly comparable for many of the reasons you allude to here, but it's very interesting to hear how other clubs are approaching a similar issue.

No problem and apologies for being late in to reply. 
 

A bit which went missing in my first para is possibly of interest. The Brentford scheme has reimbursement in full for tickets put on resale >7 days in advance, whether they sell or not. After that reimbursement in full if the ticket sells. Tickets put on the exchange only go on sale once all member tickets have sold- we are looking at tweaking this to have as much of time pre-match as possible for sales to take place. The cut off of 36 hours was brought forward from 24 hours because too high a % listed last minute last season and gave too short a time to enable members to plan and buy (eg for Luton & Burnley I was having lunch at services on the M1 ahead of 3pm kick offs when my son got texted encouraging him to buy a ticket because there were a lot put on the exchange the evening before). 
 

I think my supporters association inbox would turn into a binfire if the club suggested giving less than 100% reimbursement for STs. If it went down to £10 or was made into a lottery fans would drive up to Leeds to firebomb my house. Call me disloyal but I’m not going to our Sunday 7pm match v Chelsea and know a lot of local fans who will also because of real life be putting their tickets up for resale!

[aBee 176]

11 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Thanks for the info. The key thing here though is that Brentford is potentially subject to the whims of London based plastics, who don't really support the club but have ST's mainly for the away teams! As I see it the "branding" seems to have sorted that issue out already; you would hope now that this would be slowly dropped now that it is proven most, if not all, ST's are in true fans hands!

There will be some plastics but most have been weeded out usually for reselling at a profit. STs were sold out for the new ground by August 2020 and since then have had quite a high qualification threshold to buy the c300 a year that became available from 22-23 onwards. So the plastics would have been ones around July/August 2020 gambling on us getting promoted and Covid restrictions being lifted the following season. Neither of which happened. 
 

The rough qualification for a new ST from 22-23 was attending 13 home games by mid March and having 1000 Ticket Access Points (TAPs). It’s slightly easier for kids. Home games give 10 or 15 TAPs, away ones are done principally by distance so Newcastle gives 50, London clubs 10. To get one in 22-23 you’d have had to have gone to a fair number of home and away games going back to midtable Championship in 18-19. This season was the first where it was possible just from PL games. 
 

The plastic big club fans are more likely members where the TAPs qualification is quite low (usually 40- ie you have to have gone to 3 less attractive home games) but gives a shot at one of 1500 tickets for newer/casual members if you’re quick off the mark (the big matches typically sell out in 10-15 mins) or keep hitting refresh when the resale tickets are released. 

[Duncan Edwards 2,426]

[essex canary 630]

On 18/10/2024 at 17:55, shefcanary said:

Thanks for the info. The key thing here though is that Brentford is potentially subject to the whims of London based plastics, who don't really support the club but have ST's mainly for the away teams! As I see it the "branding" seems to have sorted that issue out already; you would hope now that this would be slowly dropped now that it is proven most, if not all, ST's are in true fans hands!

Are you a plastic at Bramall Lane?

[nutty nigel 7,962]

Good to see this thread seems to be working again👍

[CANARYKING 714]

Don’t think we have ever played at 3pm on a Sunday? With the game on Sky be interesting what number of empty will be ?

[shefcanary 3,061]

4 hours ago, essex canary said:

Are you a plastic at Bramall Lane?

Upvc!

[nutty nigel 7,962]

16 minutes ago, CANARYKING said:

Don’t think we have ever played at 3pm on a Sunday? With the game on Sky be interesting what number of empty will be ?

If folk can only make 3pm on a Saturday they’re not getting much value from their season tickets.

The tv companies aren’t much use for the match going supporters. People say “think of the money”. But our tickets don’t get any cheaper.

[wcorkcanary 4,828]

1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

If folk can only make 3pm on a Saturday they’re not getting much value from their season tickets.

The tv companies aren’t much use for the match going supporters. People say “think of the money”. But our tickets don’t get any cheaper.

The current advances in technology  will render actual attendees surplus to requirements soon enough. The next step will be a robot/avatar  in your 'seat ', beaming your personal  view to your 4d real feel suit that  you receive  instead of a season ticket. Waveney of course will have to pay extra due to material costs  and Essex can run the rent back scheme flawlessly,  with transparency and for extremely  good value and customer service ..while turning a small profit for Zoes bonus. The best bit is that everyone can sit/ stand exactly where they want , next to their mates...who might be ' sitting' elsewhere.  The matches would be played in a smaller arena , built for multicamera use , with simulated crowds and for a small fee you will be able to feel what it's like to take a crucial penalty. Sounds horrible doesn't it.  

This is not far away. 

 

[essex canary 630]

49 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

The current advances in technology  will render actual attendees surplus to requirements soon enough. The next step will be a robot/avatar  in your 'seat ', beaming your personal  view to your 4d real feel suit that  you receive  instead of a season ticket. Waveney of course will have to pay extra due to material costs  and Essex can run the rent back scheme flawlessly,  with transparency and for extremely  good value and customer service ..while turning a small profit for Zoes bonus. The best bit is that everyone can sit/ stand exactly where they want , next to their mates...who might be ' sitting' elsewhere.  The matches would be played in a smaller arena , built for multicamera use , with simulated crowds and for a small fee you will be able to feel what it's like to take a crucial penalty. Sounds horrible doesn't it.  

This is not far away. 

 

Indeed. When there is a break in transmission I will calculate the total number of seconds lost relative to rhe duration of the game and calculate the refund due accordingly. If the answer is too large I will use the square root of it instead.

[nutty nigel 7,962]

1 hour ago, wcorkcanary said:

The current advances in technology  will render actual attendees surplus to requirements soon enough. The next step will be a robot/avatar  in your 'seat ', beaming your personal  view to your 4d real feel suit that  you receive  instead of a season ticket. Waveney of course will have to pay extra due to material costs  and Essex can run the rent back scheme flawlessly,  with transparency and for extremely  good value and customer service ..while turning a small profit for Zoes bonus. The best bit is that everyone can sit/ stand exactly where they want , next to their mates...who might be ' sitting' elsewhere.  The matches would be played in a smaller arena , built for multicamera use , with simulated crowds and for a small fee you will be able to feel what it's like to take a crucial penalty. Sounds horrible doesn't it.  

This is not far away. 

 

Apparently we were missed during the pandemic. So much so that ‘crowd noise’ was played even though the stands were empty. Sanitised crowd noise though, I never heard the  likes of me shouting “dig a hole…” as opposition players lay apparently near to death trying to impress inept referees…

[Rupethebear 29]

On 20/10/2024 at 15:37, nutty nigel said:

If folk can only make 3pm on a Saturday they’re not getting much value from their season tickets.

The tv companies aren’t much use for the match going supporters. People say “think of the money”. But our tickets don’t get any cheaper.

The economics of football show that from our £70M turnover TV income is over £40M and gate money £11M, so when your largest source of revenue is over 50% they have priority over the fans who contribute circa 15%.

That said I plan to raise this at the AGM in November.