The Last 2 Home Attendances

[GMF 1,043]

7 hours ago, NewNestCarrow said:

When NCFC offered just a £10 credit - thus generating up to £58 on the resell of a standard seat - that was clearly profiteering. 

Because of this - and the tales of unreliable rebating - fans' confidence that the club can run a decent Buy Back scheme is low.

 

Sorry, but these figures don’t stand up to scrutiny. The top casual price for a lounge seat is now £49, for an A+ game, and the credit would be £25 in that instance.

There has to be an element of “cost” to the STH, rather than a full rebate, otherwise they’d never give up their ST. Likewise, there has to be some upside for the Club, otherwise they would never entertain the principle.

All that said, the issue is what tweaks can be made in order to improve the current system. Clearly there’s scope for improvement.

[Robert N. LiM 6,419]

10 hours ago, GMF said:

There isn’t one single solution to fixing this, a number of options and proposals have already been discussed, some of which will require input from the ticket office staff. All I can say at the moment is that it’s not being ignored, and it’s under review, for the obvious reasons.

Very much appreciate your replies on this thread, @GMF, and glad to hear that it's being reviewed. Seems to me that the scheme is slightly out-of-date: if it worked in the past, it's not quite fit for purpose in an era of moveable kick-off times.

[essex canary 630]

2 hours ago, GMF said:

Sorry, but these figures don’t stand up to scrutiny. The top casual price for a lounge seat is now £49, for an A+ game, and the credit would be £25 in that instance.

There has to be an element of “cost” to the STH, rather than a full rebate, otherwise they’d never give up their ST. Likewise, there has to be some upside for the Club, otherwise they would never entertain the principle.

All that said, the issue is what tweaks can be made in order to improve the current system. Clearly there’s scope for improvement.

This thread certainly sparked a debate.

It is all very well waiting for a new ticket system but why wasn't there any remedial action this summer when it has been obvious for at least 2 years that there is a problem especially with midweek matches?

'Brutal' Brenford charge 21-25 year olds £330 for a season ticket compared to NCFC'S £545. They have also apparently managed to drive their actual attendance rate up from 89% to 93% through more effective recycling of seats.

Hull had a price promotion for our match there in January and it was clear from their website that they weren't attempting to sell the last dreg seats before facilitating transfers of seats that fans find attractive.

Given the first post AGM home match is Plymouth on a Tuesday night, a good reference point for some questions. This is linked to the atmosphere issue too.

[shefcanary 3,062]

The only way to sort this is to get rid of the restricted views.

The Delaware Capitalists have to put their money where their mouth is and overhaul the ground completely so every seat is the best one in the house, whatever the cost! Then if seats don't sell, give them away five minutes before kick-off to those fans who are in the new bars built on the Carra Stadium footprint and have spent £40 or more already on food and booze.

Easy! 😉 

[NewNestCarrow 303]

3 hours ago, GMF said:

Sorry, but these figures don’t stand up to scrutiny. The top casual price for a lounge seat is now £49, for an A+ game, and the credit would be £25 in that instance.

There has to be an element of “cost” to the STH, rather than a full rebate, otherwise they’d never give up their ST. Likewise, there has to be some upside for the Club, otherwise they would never entertain the principle.

All that said, the issue is what tweaks can be made in order to improve the current system. Clearly there’s scope for improvement.

It is disappointing that your stance is so adversarial.

Buy Back USED to be £10 (or lower for B & C games) and NCFC USED to charge £48 for standard casual tickets. There can be no doubt about these facts, and the club's greed in this regard was why I have never used the scheme.

           

Rebate levels have recently improved (as I stated) but the scheme is playing catch-up.

[hogesar 10,934]

4 hours ago, GMF said:

Sorry, but these figures don’t stand up to scrutiny. The top casual price for a lounge seat is now £49, for an A+ game, and the credit would be £25 in that instance.

There has to be an element of “cost” to the STH, rather than a full rebate, otherwise they’d never give up their ST. Likewise, there has to be some upside for the Club, otherwise they would never entertain the principle.

All that said, the issue is what tweaks can be made in order to improve the current system. Clearly there’s scope for improvement.

I think NewNest is referring to the old buy-back scheme stuff.

I think the current numbers are more than fair but ST holders need to be encouraged to use it more. One option is that the credit is paid back to the account within 30 days rather than it just being discounted from next year. The other option could be to convert it immediately into store credit online - If I couldn't go to two games, tickets sold, I could then buy a shirt, which costs the club less than giving us the cash equivalent anyway.

I do think we should issue "warnings" or do something ala Brentford - if your season ticket isn't scanned for 3 consecutive games they should be contacted.

[GMF 1,043]

@NewNestCarrow I have no interest in how the scheme worked (or didn’t) previously, only in how it is now. There’s clearly scope to make improvements and that’s what I’m focusing on.

[nutty nigel 7,962]

As always there’s more than one way of looking at this. Improving buy back options also encourages people who no longer want to go to every game to hang on to their season ticket for any games they want to go to. Meaning those on the waiting list are basically waiting to fill dead men’s shoes.

[ncfcstar 342]

2 hours ago, essex canary said:

This thread certainly sparked a debate.

It is all very well waiting for a new ticket system but why wasn't there any remedial action this summer when it has been obvious for at least 2 years that there is a problem especially with midweek matches?

'Brutal' Brenford charge 21-25 year olds £330 for a season ticket compared to NCFC'S £545. They have also apparently managed to drive their actual attendance rate up from 89% to 93% through more effective recycling of seats.

Hull had a price promotion for our match there in January and it was clear from their website that they weren't attempting to sell the last dreg seats before facilitating transfers of seats that fans find attractive.

Given the first post AGM home match is Plymouth on a Tuesday night, a good reference point for some questions. This is linked to the atmosphere issue too.

Brentford's capacity is 17.25k, and they are a Premier League club.  I don't think comparisons with them are of any use, if we were in the PL again we wouldn't be having a discussion about how to increase attendances.

Hull's stadium holds 25k yet their average attendance last year (in a season where they were pushing for the playoffs) was 21k, again another poor comparison.  No wonder they were trying price promotions.

[GMF 1,043]

22 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think NewNest is referring to the old buy-back scheme stuff.

I think the current numbers are more than fair but ST holders need to be encouraged to use it more. One option is that the credit is paid back to the account within 30 days rather than it just being discounted from next year. The other option could be to convert it immediately into store credit online - If I couldn't go to two games, tickets sold, I could then buy a shirt, which costs the club less than giving us the cash equivalent anyway.

I do think we should issue "warnings" or do something ala Brentford - if your season ticket isn't scanned for 3 consecutive games they should be contacted.

The rebate is now credited to your customer account within five working days. From there you can either draw it back to your payment method, or leave it there and use it against future purchases.

[NewNestCarrow 303]

59 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think NewNest is referring to the old buy-back scheme stuff.

Indeed.

I thought it was fairly clear.

[wcorkcanary 4,828]

1 hour ago, NewNestCarrow said:

Indeed.

I thought it was fairly clear.

And they used to send kids up chimneys.

Let's have a reparations scheme for those underpaid buybacks . 

[essex canary 630]

2 hours ago, GMF said:

The rebate is now credited to your customer account within five working days. From there you can either draw it back to your payment method, or leave it there and use it against future purchases.

Why not an opt out for ST holders for midweek games with say £75 reduction on the ST price then the Club's responsibility to resell in a manner that will be beneficial in attracting younger people?

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,873]

1 hour ago, essex canary said:

Why not an opt out for ST holders for midweek games with say £75 reduction on the ST price then the Club's responsibility to resell in a manner that will be beneficial in attracting younger people?

When do you get to opt out ? Before the season starts ? Or when the trains don’t work? Or when it’s windy ? Or when the ko gets put back ? Or when Sky change a Saturday game to a Friday night ? Or a Monday night ? At Christmas ?

 
I mean I’m not trying to over complicate it but have you actually thought it through? 

(no need to answer) 
 

[nutty nigel 7,962]

Why keep trying to redefine season ticket. A season ticket is a ticket for the season. 

[......and Smith must score. 1,637]

I have a good South Stand centre block season ticket. Very occasionally I put it on buyback. If a casual supporter rocks up and wants only an unrestricted seat surely the club would offer mine to secure a sale even though there’s plenty of restricted seats available ?

 

[GMF 1,043]

1 hour ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

When do you get to opt out ? Before the season starts ? Or when the trains don’t work? Or when it’s windy ? Or when the ko gets put back ? Or when Sky change a Saturday game to a Friday night ? Or a Monday night ? At Christmas ?

 
I mean I’m not trying to over complicate it but have you actually thought it through? 

(no need to answer) 
 

Taking a step back even further, the first renewal deadline is usually at the end of February, or the beginning of March, with payments on instalments starting at the end of March. At this point it’s highly unlikely that you’re even going to know what league you’re going to be playing in the next season.

That’s also before the fixtures come out in June. In the Championship, you’re going to have four, or five midweek home games, in the Premier League it’s usually a couple.

It would be a logistical nightmare, and that’s before considering your comments!

[hogesar 10,934]

6 hours ago, GMF said:

The rebate is now credited to your customer account within five working days. From there you can either draw it back to your payment method, or leave it there and use it against future purchases.

In which case GMF, completely ignore me and I should have known but, as previous from should have indicated, Essex is crying about a load of nothing.

One note, I've been a season ticket holder for past 16 consecutive seasons and I didn't know the above so perhaps they need to force feed us idiots the information!

[Matt Juler 215]

2 hours ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

I have a good South Stand centre block season ticket. Very occasionally I put it on buyback. If a casual supporter rocks up and wants only an unrestricted seat surely the club would offer mine to secure a sale even though there’s plenty of restricted seats available ?

 

Certainly online, from experience your seat wouldn't appear available until the last non-ST seat has been sold. Whether talking to the ticket office would yield a different outcome, I'm not sure.

[essex canary 630]

2 hours ago, GMF said:

Taking a step back even further, the first renewal deadline is usually at the end of February, or the beginning of March, with payments on instalments starting at the end of March. At this point it’s highly unlikely that you’re even going to know what league you’re going to be playing in the next season.

That’s also before the fixtures come out in June. In the Championship, you’re going to have four, or five midweek home games, in the Premier League it’s usually a couple.

It would be a logistical nightmare, and that’s before considering your comments!

The Club creates its own problems- which most other Clubs don't - with that early deadline and therefore creates it's own logistical nightmare which it then uses as an excuse.

In Premier League seasons the buy back system may well work adequately.

As @Matt Juler indicates it surely does not operate effectively or transparently in a Championship environment with typically 5 midweek matches a season hence why a solition is needed.

[essex canary 630]

4 hours ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

I have a good South Stand centre block season ticket. Very occasionally I put it on buyback. If a casual supporter rocks up and wants only an unrestricted seat surely the club would offer mine to secure a sale even though there’s plenty of restricted seats available ?

 

Even if that is the case, which seems doubtful in the Championship, is that fair on a supporter with a less attractive season ticket?

[GMF 1,043]

4 hours ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

I have a good South Stand centre block season ticket. Very occasionally I put it on buyback. If a casual supporter rocks up and wants only an unrestricted seat surely the club would offer mine to secure a sale even though there’s plenty of restricted seats available ?

 

Let’s take your South Stand ST central seat as an example. This costs you an average of £26.59 a game, which the Club gets whether you attend, or not.

If we assume you put it on buyback on a B-grade game, meaning that it could be resold for £36.00.

If it is resold, you would receive a £20.00 credit, meaning that the Club retains £6.59 from your ST payment, plus the £36.00 resale value. Therefore, a total revenue take from your seat of  £42.59 for that match.

Contrast the position where you don’t attend, the Club still retains your £26.59, but, if they sell a non-STH seat, which would only cost £31.00 in a standard seat area, then the Club receives both receipts, a total revenue of £57.59.

That’s why they don’t do it, even if the casual supporter gets a poorer seat.

To be clear, I’m not justifying the situation, but it’s the hard financial reality.

[NewNestCarrow 303]

24 minutes ago, GMF said:

Let’s take your South Stand ST central seat as an example. This costs you an average of £26.59 a game, which the Club gets whether you attend, or not.

If we assume you put it on buyback on a B-grade game, meaning that it could be resold for £36.00.

If it is resold, you would receive a £20.00 credit, meaning that the Club retains £6.59 from your ST payment, plus the £36.00 resale value. Therefore, a total revenue take from your seat of  £42.59 for that match.

Contrast the position where you don’t attend, the Club still retains your £26.59, but, if they sell a non-STH seat, which would only cost £31.00 in a standard seat area, then the Club receives both receipts, a total revenue of £57.59.

That’s why they don’t do it, even if the casual supporter gets a poorer seat.

To be clear, I’m not justifying the situation, but it’s the hard financial reality.

These figures are interesting. And it does suggest that the club's overriding focus is just income, rather than the poor look of numerous empty seats in full view of the TV cameras. 

But let's say I'm a casual fan, looking for late availability.

If my choice is a 'restricted' view in the River End corner OR a prime seat in the middle of the South Stand  I think it is pretty obvious which I would pick.  But if my only choice is that restricted corner seat I may  well decide not to bother at all.

So does the club have data on how many fans search late-availability and don't proceed to purchase? Have they asked those fans if they would have purchased a seat if it was in a better part of the ground?

Maybe ST holders would accept a lower-rebate when the ground is not Sold Out?  Have we asked them?

[GMF 1,043]

@NewNestCarrow of course one of the Club’s primary objectives is income, which is understandable to a degree. However, it’s also about getting the balance right between those objectives and the those of the fans.

If you’re looking to get a ticket near game day, you can use the “best available” search option to select your ticket, which will confirm if there’s any available. It’s not perfect, however.

The Club is aware of the tickets sold V actual occupancy rates, although that’s not unique to NCFC. Beyond the actual gate receipts figures there’s other factors. After all, you can’t sell anything, such as drinks, food or merchandise to a vacant seat, even if you already have the ST payment from the STH.

The Club will have various other data. Utilising it to enhance the rebate process is the challenge.

 

[GMF 1,043]

@NewNestCarrow of course one of the Club’s primary objectives is income, which is understandable to a degree. However, it’s also about getting the balance right between those objectives and the those of the fans.

If you’re looking to get a ticket near game day, you can use the “best available” search option to select your ticket, which will confirm if there’s any available. It’s not perfect, however.

The Club is aware of the tickets sold V actual occupancy rates, although that’s not unique to NCFC. Beyond the actual gate receipts figures there’s other factors. After all, you can’t sell anything, such as drinks, food or merchandise to a vacant seat, even if you already have the ST payment from the STH.

The Club will have various other data. Utilising it to enhance the rebate process is the challenge.

 

[......and Smith must score. 1,637]

9 hours ago, NewNestCarrow said:

These figures are interesting. And it does suggest that the club's overriding focus is just income, rather than the poor look of numerous empty seats in full view of the TV cameras. 

But let's say I'm a casual fan, looking for late availability.

If my choice is a 'restricted' view in the River End corner OR a prime seat in the middle of the South Stand  I think it is pretty obvious which I would pick.  But if my only choice is that restricted corner seat I may  well decide not to bother at all.

So does the club have data on how many fans search late-availability and don't proceed to purchase? Have they asked those fans if they would have purchased a seat if it was in a better part of the ground?

Maybe ST holders would accept a lower-rebate when the ground is not Sold Out?  Have we asked them?

I can see the economic reasons why NCFC would keep my vacant better seat hidden but as NWC points out I think the club can quite often miss out on any sale at all. The restricted view seats at Carrow Rd aren’t generally too bad now but back in the day ‘restricted view’ often meant stuck behind a huge pillar or with a view of only half the pitch.

That perception has stuck so as NWC suggests someone offered a restricted view seat might well not bother at all especially if there’s no reduction in the price. I’d say sell the better seat and take a smaller profit rather than risk the restricted views going unsold.

[essex canary 630]

19 minutes ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

I can see the economic reasons why NCFC would keep my vacant better seat hidden but as NWC points out I think the club can quite often miss out on any sale at all. The restricted view seats at Carrow Rd aren’t generally too bad now but back in the day ‘restricted view’ often meant stuck behind a huge pillar or with a view of only half the pitch.

That perception has stuck so as NWC suggests someone offered a restricted view seat might well not bother at all especially if there’s no reduction in the price. I’d say sell the better seat and take a smaller profit rather than risk the restricted views going unsold.

Yes because there should be a goodwill aspect both to the purchasing customer and those looking for buyback though any returns to the latter should be through a better, fairer and more transparent system than seems to operate at present.

Goodwill breeds loyalty. Something NCFC have forgotten or some of the current staff have never known the meaning of.

[......and Smith must score. 1,637]

Extending this discussion a little I wonder what happens if two or more season ticket holders who sit sit together in unobstructed seats put their seats on buyback. 

I find it hard to believe that the club would keep these hidden from a prospective buyer particularly as there’s no reductions for children in some parts of the ground should a family be prepared to pay top dollar for seats together with an unobstructed view.

[sgncfc 1,345]

I use the buy back scheme all the time - I can't get to most midweek or early kickoffs - and it works fine. It would motivate more people to use it if they gave more credit, but the scheme itself works well, and my ticket seems to sell every time I put it up.

[......and Smith must score. 1,637]

33 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

I use the buy back scheme all the time - I can't get to most midweek or early kickoffs - and it works fine. It would motivate more people to use it if they gave more credit, but the scheme itself works well, and my ticket seems to sell every time I put it up.

This seems to give a lie to the club claim that buy back tickets are only available after all other ‘ normal ‘ tickets are sold. I can understand it being the case if we’re in the PL but as far as I’m aware we rarely, if ever, have a total sell out in the Championship.