The Striker Problem

[Petriix 3,219]

The general consensus seems to be that Sargent hasn't quite hit his stride this season but the belief is that he will start firing sooner or later. I was definitely thinking along these lines before the Leeds game but a seed of a thought took root midway through the second half and I haven't been able to shake it since... It's more of a question:

Is Sargent actually any good as a lone striker? 

Maybe not. 

The evidence is all there. He performed best with Barnes in the team last season. His instincts seem to make him drop short rather than run in behind and he does best when receiving the ball to feet then driving forwards as opposed to racing on to a through-ball. 

I don't think Sarge is very good at timing a run off the shoulder of the last defender. Teams can play a very high line against us without much risk of being caught out by a long ball and, when it does come, Sainz is far more likely to be the one running on to it. 

I think we actually played a few very good long balls last night but Sarge kept dropping short or heading the ball rather than trying get in behind. It's becoming a bit of a pattern. Rather than just him being slightly off the pace it's more that he doesn't make the right kind of runs. 

Maybe it's simply that we need to play more to his strengths, let our attacking midfielders make those runs behind or pair him with a more advanced number 10. But maybe he really isn't that well suited to the style of play that JHT is developing. 

Unfortunately we don't really have any other forwards to call on while Crnac is playing out wide. I'd actually like to see him tried as a central striker at some point soon as an alternative to Sarge or at least to give him a rest. Maybe Crnac should drop to the bench to allow us to make that change later in the game. 

The squad is looking very lacking in this area right now. 

[Robert N. LiM 6,279]

Adsoluetly no idah how we could have solved this problem.

Edited October 2 by Robert N. LiM
It's a good post, but not something I would do. More like a Cambridgeshire Canary post. I like Cambridgeshire Canary, but I can't do that sort of post.

[Petriix 3,219]

14 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Adsoluetly no idah how we could have solved this problem.

I'm not sure if Idah himself is exactly what we're missing, but we definitely need more attacking options. I mean two or three alternatives, not just one signing. 

[repman 752]

Sargent has been excellent so far this season, bar Doyle I'd probably have him as our best performer. 

His role is definitely different to last year, at the moment he's taking about 1 shot less per 90 than last year. He's also not finishing at the rate he did, though it should be said it feels unlikely to me that he keeps on outperforming his xG. The big difference however is how much he's laying on for his teammates, all 3 of his assists have been for Sainz, and they've all been sitters too. Before this season he had 5 assists over 3 years so if it keeps on going like this he will sail past it.

I don't disagree that we're light on attacking options (certainly with the Barnes injury) but if Sarge keeps up what he's been doing so far he's going to be absolutely fine.

 

 

[Robert N. LiM 6,279]

1 minute ago, Petriix said:

I'm not sure if Idah himself is exactly what we're missing, but we definitely need more attacking options. I mean two or three alternatives, not just one signing. 

As with most of my jokes, there was a serious point behind it. Not really sure how you solve the conundrum that if you tend only to play with one striker, how do you get a decent enough back-up player who is happy to be on the bench? Idah was a really effective sub for us last season, but I completely sympathise with him wanting to start. Just seems to me that anyone good enough to play that role won't want to, or not for long.

[Google Bot 3,929]

He's a scorer at this level I have no doubt, the goals are just coming from different areas right now but it evens out across the season.  His threat is a factor whether he's scoring, assisting or just taking opposition players focus around the area.

If he's being questioned when one goal from being joint top 4 scorer in the league then it's probably more demonstrative of the expectation levels that he's built since taking that position at this level?

I don't think we'll have a 'typical' way of scoring as we did with Pukki and Buendia, we're going to be quite varied and playing as a sum of all parts.

Injury is the big concern for me, though.

Edited October 2 by Google Bot

[Samwam27 606]

The problem we have is Crnac is now our only alternative to Sarg, but we're  starting him every game, so we have no alternatives.

With Barnes not looking to come back soon we are seriously short in the striking dept.

Im surprised Gorden isnt starting and Crnac coming off the bench

[Up and Away 96]

6 minutes ago, repman said:

Sargent has been excellent so far this season, bar Doyle I'd probably have him as our best performer. 

His role is definitely different to last year, at the moment he's taking about 1 shot less per 90 than last year. He's also not finishing at the rate he did, though it should be said it feels unlikely to me that he keeps on outperforming his xG. The big difference however is how much he's laying on for his teammates, all 3 of his assists have been for Sainz, and they've all been sitters too. Before this season he had 5 assists over 3 years so if it keeps on going like this he will sail past it.

I don't disagree that we're light on attacking options (certainly with the Barnes injury) but if Sarge keeps up what he's been doing so far he's going to be absolutely fine.

 

 

In the system that I believe JHT wants to play, the 9 is not meant to be the main goalscorer. There job is primarily to occupy the centre halves and create opportunities for the other attacking players (wide left, 10 and wide right).  The stats you quote would support this change in emphasis. 

[Carrow89 182]

4 v Watford and 3 v Derby suggest otherwise - none of which were from Sargent either.

[Petriix 3,219]

12 minutes ago, Up and Away said:

In the system that I believe JHT wants to play, the 9 is not meant to be the main goalscorer. There job is primarily to occupy the centre halves and create opportunities for the other attacking players (wide left, 10 and wide right).  The stats you quote would support this change in emphasis. 

That makes a lot of sense. Was it perhaps that the midfield changes against Leeds meant that there was less support for Sargent in the final third? 

[Up and Away 96]

1 minute ago, Petriix said:

That makes a lot of sense. Was it perhaps that the midfield changes against Leeds meant that there was less support for Sargent in the final third? 

Possibly and Leeds are a good side, which clearly makes it harder. 

At the moment, Sargent is the only player at the club who I believe could realistically lead the line in a JHT team. I am not convinced that Barnes is mobile enough when fit to play this role. As per your OP. the concern is what happens if Sargent gets injured or simply burns out - I make it 16 games in three months before the transfer window opens.

 

 

[norwich canary 171]

Tzolis scored in the champions league tonight just saying 

[daz 137]

Quality goal aswell tbf

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/live/c2kd54vxd2lt?post=asset%3Ae5c9ed7d-84dc-466f-8431-4142800aff4d#post

[hogesar 10,762]

30 minutes ago, Petriix said:

That makes a lot of sense. Was it perhaps that the midfield changes against Leeds meant that there was less support for Sargent in the final third? 

The other problem of course is keeping Sargent happy. If he's the link-up deep CF who also grabs 15-20 goals he's happy. If he only gets 5-10 he probably looks elsewhere for his own career. So I think that's always a potential problem in itself. If the team is flying top of the league perhaps that softens it but we aren't likely to be that yet in my opinion.

Aside from that I don't like the fact we're running him into the ground. He does a lot of work for the team and 90 mins every Tuesday and Saturday is a big ask. I suspect had we not had the injury to Onel we may have seen Crnac play up front for the last 15 mins or so to give Sargent a break. The problem there, I suspect, beyond Onel injury, is I'm not sure what Crnac would really offer the team in that position.

We do have attacking options, but no real out-and-out striker options. It's an issue for sure.

[Up and Away 96]

9 minutes ago, hogesar said:

The other problem of course is keeping Sargent happy. If he's the link-up deep CF who also grabs 15-20 goals he's happy. If he only gets 5-10 he probably looks elsewhere for his own career. So I think that's always a potential problem in itself. If the team is flying top of the league perhaps that softens it but we aren't likely to be that yet in my opinion.

If the team are doing well and he gets the plaudits for the role he has been asked to play, then I am sure he will be fine.

I share your concern, he needs someone to share the load up front. That would be the case if he was not prone to injury, so the risk is magnified.

 

[Mason 47 1,924]

I think Sargent's lesser return this season is largely down to the team mentality.

I'll not go into too much detail (I've tried to write it out a few times and ended up with a thousand word essay) but Wagner's team sat deep and looked to spring Josh in a foot race, or spammed crosses. It was a team custom-built to get Sargent scoring.

We're much higher up the pitch now and often means Sarge is getting crowded out. We also lack 'creators'- both his fellow attackers are closer to strikers than suppliers. I don't think all is lost, though, as teams will now have no choice but to try adapt to stop Borja but that means space for others. Crnac is also starting to show a little something (though he doesn't look like a wide player to me).

This is all notwithstanding of the fact Sargent has just been a bit off with his finishing thus far. Sometimes, strikers just go off the boil a bit. I don't think its unreasonable to suggest he could be on 7-8 so far fairly easily.

It also occurs to me that the false 9 is football-vogue right now and that is distinctly how he's playing (and not doing too badly). The cynic in me suggests there's business-centric aspects to the role he's being asked to play.

OK, only a 900-word essay then. 

Edited October 2 by Mason 47

[unique 466]

I don’t understand the love-in for Sargent. He has been a yard off the pace all season. He has barely tested a keeper.

Yes, his work rate cannot be criticised, but his assist for Sainz against Derby has been one of his few attacking contributions.

Sainz has looked increasingly unwilling to pass the ball to Sargent, as if he believes he is more likely to score himself.

As for the penalty -  it was woeful. The majority of goalkeepers diving the correct way would have saved it.

Norwich have very little individual goal threat, so Sargent needs to start finding his shooting boots. He’s certainly not looking like a player destined for the Premier League in January.

[Google Bot 3,929]

2 hours ago, unique said:

Norwich have very little individual goal threat, so Sargent needs to start finding his shooting boots. He’s certainly not looking like a player destined for the Premier League in January.

Ignoring the fact that Sarge is 2nd in the league for shots on target, we're averaging 1.5 goals per game, and the wagon only started moving a few months ago? 🙂

Sarge has proven his ability at this level when fit, for me that's the only question mark on whether he gets to 20 goals this season.  Currently he's scoring 0.38 goals per game on average, which is the equivalent of 18 goals per 46 games (a league season). 

During what people are calling a poor period, He's also assisting at the same average, so with assists and goals combined he's directly involved in 0.75/Goals per game which is accounting for half of our total goal output.

And in regards to the penalty, considering the delay and pressure being on his shoulders smashing it hard and close to the keeper is a well thought out tactic. 

Plus I need to point out that the keeper DID go that way, and you're also forgetting the fact that it was Sarge's speed to get a foot on that ball that won the penalty to start with.

As for the 'love-in', he's a top guy and it's a pleasure to see him wearing the shirt and the work he puts in on the pitch.  Any club at this level would want him in their squad.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,633]

7 hours ago, unique said:

I don’t understand the love-in for Sargent. He has been a yard off the pace all season. He has barely tested a keeper.

Yes, his work rate cannot be criticised, but his assist for Sainz against Derby has been one of his few attacking contributions.

Sainz has looked increasingly unwilling to pass the ball to Sargent, as if he believes he is more likely to score himself.

As for the penalty -  it was woeful. The majority of goalkeepers diving the correct way would have saved it.

Norwich have very little individual goal threat, so Sargent needs to start finding his shooting boots. He’s certainly not looking like a player destined for the Premier League in January.

Has to be a joke, has to be.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,633]

Sarge has been great this season and a pillar stone of Thorups system. 

8 goals in 3 games. The only striking problem with have is if either Sainz or Sarge get injured.

Edited October 3 by Creedence Clearwater Couto

[Satriales 993]

I love Sarge but it was a weird penalty. Don't think he struck it particularly well at all. Their keeper just sort of fell over. 

[jaberry2 769]

10 hours ago, Petriix said:

The general consensus seems to be that Sargent hasn't quite hit his stride this season but the belief is that he will start firing sooner or later. I was definitely thinking along these lines before the Leeds game but a seed of a thought took root midway through the second half and I haven't been able to shake it since... It's more of a question:

Is Sargent actually any good as a lone striker? 

Maybe not. 

The evidence is all there. He performed best with Barnes in the team last season. His instincts seem to make him drop short rather than run in behind and he does best when receiving the ball to feet then driving forwards as opposed to racing on to a through-ball. 

I don't think Sarge is very good at timing a run off the shoulder of the last defender. Teams can play a very high line against us without much risk of being caught out by a long ball and, when it does come, Sainz is far more likely to be the one running on to it. 

I think we actually played a few very good long balls last night but Sarge kept dropping short or heading the ball rather than trying get in behind. It's becoming a bit of a pattern. Rather than just him being slightly off the pace it's more that he doesn't make the right kind of runs. 

Maybe it's simply that we need to play more to his strengths, let our attacking midfielders make those runs behind or pair him with a more advanced number 10. But maybe he really isn't that well suited to the style of play that JHT is developing. 

Unfortunately we don't really have any other forwards to call on while Crnac is playing out wide. I'd actually like to see him tried as a central striker at some point soon as an alternative to Sarge or at least to give him a rest. Maybe Crnac should drop to the bench to allow us to make that change later in the game. 

The squad is looking very lacking in this area right now. 

I personally dont think Sarge is an issue, it's the feed into him from midfield which counts and there has been little put on a plate for him or even many well measured passes. More cohesion should happen as the season progresses.

[Capt. Pants 5,008]

I think everyone would feel a lot happier if we had a back up striker. Crnac has aleady shown that he doesn't have the stamina to last 90 mins so if he starts then it can't realistically be him.

It's OK at the moment as the team (well Sainz) are also scoring and we are picking up points. However, with a few of our players I'm already thinking what more do they? Have they reached their ceiling? Have they potential for a higher level? Sargent is one of those and I'm unsure at the moment.

 

 

[Well b back 3,603]

9 hours ago, unique said:

I don’t understand the love-in for Sargent. He has been a yard off the pace all season. He has barely tested a keeper.

Yes, his work rate cannot be criticised, but his assist for Sainz against Derby has been one of his few attacking contributions.

Sainz has looked increasingly unwilling to pass the ball to Sargent, as if he believes he is more likely to score himself.

As for the penalty -  it was woeful. The majority of goalkeepers diving the correct way would have saved it.

Norwich have very little individual goal threat, so Sargent needs to start finding his shooting boots. He’s certainly not looking like a player destined for the Premier League in January.

Thank heavens we are joint 5th top goal scorers in the championship currently, and that after a slow start. 

[Well b back 3,603]

Loving it.
We play slow boring football, that needs to change. We play fast high press exciting football and are winning, which involves players performing different roles and in addition winning, and now people want that to change.

Clearly there is either a wind up going on here or some people do not understand the different ways of playing football as a team.

[Daz Sparks 1,558]

29 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Loving it.
We play slow boring football, that needs to change. We play fast high press exciting football and are winning, which involves players performing different roles and in addition winning, and now people want that to change.

Clearly there is either a wind up going on here or some people do not understand the different ways of playing football as a team.

Well said.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,633]

Even for Pink'un standards, some unbelievable opinions on here....😅

[dylanisabaddog 6,134]

It's very difficult to persuade any player to sign as a back up. I've heard suggestions that we should have signed Cannon but would he have come here when he was guaranteed a starting place elsewhere? 

It's a huge problem but solving it is easier said than done. It's not just our problem either. Most teams now play a lone striker and most strikers want and need to play games. I'm sure that the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal have players they'd like to loan out but they would want them to play. 

[BobLoz3 609]

While Sarge may not be scoring the goals at the moment, I believe he's currently second in the assist table so far this season. He's knocked in a few goals too and that will continue to build I'm sure. His all round game is good and he's full of running. He'll hit the goal trail again soon I'm sure of it. 

[TheGunnShow 7,377]

13 hours ago, unique said:

I don’t understand the love-in for Sargent. He has been a yard off the pace all season. He has barely tested a keeper.

Yes, his work rate cannot be criticised, but his assist for Sainz against Derby has been one of his few attacking contributions.

Sainz has looked increasingly unwilling to pass the ball to Sargent, as if he believes he is more likely to score himself.

As for the penalty -  it was woeful. The majority of goalkeepers diving the correct way would have saved it.

Norwich have very little individual goal threat, so Sargent needs to start finding his shooting boots. He’s certainly not looking like a player destined for the Premier League in January.

Eh, a low-maintenance guy who is happy to be here, works his butt off for the team to create space for other attacking players, particularly Sainz (that run against Derby that led to Sainz's second goal was a very intelligent move even if it would never count as an assist), and is increasingly becoming effective in terms of setting goals up, even if his shooting will never be as clinical as a prime Pukki, who was basically his predecessor. There's a real whiff of "after the Lord Mayor's show" in your post, I have to say.

When Sainz or Crnac cut inside, watch Sargent's movement. He's usually dragging a player away so they can make that cut inside and let rip - or indeed against Leeds, Crnac cut inside, then slipped a ball in which Josh chased and won the penalty.