Russ Martin Farke in disguise

[Danke bitte 1,147]

Having just read some post weekend feedback on the BBC, made me recognise the stubborn streak Farke had.

The not wanting a Plan B because Plan A just needs to be better.

The style SHmptn play is too idealist and reminiscent of us under Farke. 

Im not a Russ baiter but I’m not sure about his style of play in the Prem. I find interesting how coaches are persisting with this style given it only works with players of high quality. Though I admit I know nothing of SHamptn’s squad really and whether, unlike us, they have the quality to get Martin’s style to work in the lower echelons of this league. 
 

[Thumbbass 364]

Yeah watching the highlights of them on MOTD really did bring back memories of our recent forays in the PL. Ramsdale appeared to make the decision that it wasn't working and played long but reverted after halftime - as the pundits assumed he was told not to. A bit like knowing you're defending against Harry Kane, if the ball is never going over your head you can afford to get tight and advance 10-15 yards.

They'll still beat Ipsquit though.

[Up and Away 91]

11 minutes ago, Danke bitte said:

Having just read some post weekend feedback on the BBC, made me recognise the stubborn streak Farke had.

The not wanting a Plan B because Plan A just needs to be better.

The style SHmptn play is too idealist and reminiscent of us under Farke. 

Im not a Russ baiter but I’m not sure about his style of play in the Prem. I find interesting how coaches are persisting with this style given it only works with players of high quality. Though I admit I know nothing of SHamptn’s squad really and whether, unlike us, they have the quality to get Martin’s style to work in the lower echelons of this league. 
 

Rylan only has Plan A. If it fails, then try harder. It was the same last season in the Champ, plenty of games where they dominated possession but went home pointless. Possession is good but you do have to do something with it.

[lake district canary 4,813]

This style can work with the right players - that's why I believe Farke and Russell could end up in top jobs. They are idealists, working towards an ideal way of playing - and any club that employs them has to recognise that.  

Southampton might just have enough with their style, if they stick with it and believe in it. Farke was unlucky at Norwich, did fantastic to get us up, playing brilliant football, which allowed Buendia and Pukki to name two, to be so effective. His problem was not getting decent - or even semi decent players in some cases - thanks to Webber not being able to get the right quality (I'll never understand why we got a 4'2" midfield player when we were crying out for strength and athleticism). 

Good luck to Russ, he's got his chance - and I for one hope he sticks with his beliefs and way of playing. 

[littleyellowbirdie 3,128]

7 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

This style can work with the right players - that's why I believe Farke and Russell could end up in top jobs. They are idealists, working towards an ideal way of playing - and any club that employs them has to recognise that.  

Southampton might just have enough with their style, if they stick with it and believe in it. Farke was unlucky at Norwich, did fantastic to get us up, playing brilliant football, which allowed Buendia and Pukki to name two, to be so effective. His problem was not getting decent - or even semi decent players in some cases - thanks to Webber not being able to get the right quality (I'll never understand why we got a 4'2" midfield player when we were crying out for strength and athleticism). 

Good luck to Russ, he's got his chance - and I for one hope he sticks with his beliefs and way of playing. 

Or to put it another way, totally unsuitable for the realities of clubs that don't have the money and reputation to have their pick of the very best (most clubs).

This is exactly my misgiving about what we're doing now. We might get every bit as beautiful as it was under Farke, as unplayable at Championship level, only to hit a brick wall again because there isn't the pragmatism and flexibility, which is going to make the change of mood every bit as bad as it was when it all came tumbling down under Farke. 

Still, it's a worry for further down the road, I guess. 

Edited September 2 by littleyellowbirdie

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,448]

41 minutes ago, Danke bitte said:

Having just read some post weekend feedback on the BBC, made me recognise the stubborn streak Farke had.

The not wanting a Plan B because Plan A just needs to be better.

The style SHmptn play is too idealist and reminiscent of us under Farke. 

Im not a Russ baiter but I’m not sure about his style of play in the Prem. I find interesting how coaches are persisting with this style given it only works with players of high quality. Though I admit I know nothing of SHamptn’s squad really and whether, unlike us, they have the quality to get Martin’s style to work in the lower echelons of this league. 
 

Levels. 

When you’re better many styles work, when you’re worse less styles can work. 

The gulf in quality is far more relevant than the philosophy or not.
 

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. The gains are in the margins. And they may well not be enough to make a difference anyway. 

The Premier is ruthless. Only weapons can bridge the gap. 

If you want simplicity and example: it’s about weapons (and momentum):

Brentford kept Toney and added Eriksen (well beyond their budget)

We sold Buendia and neutered Pukki (at the upward swing point of promotion)

Parma 

Edited September 2 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy
Pukki did incredibly well to scrape together 11 goals anyway. Bravo to him.

[ron obvious 1,709]

9 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Or to put it another way, totally unsuitable for the realities of clubs that don't have the money and reputation to have their pick of the very best (most clubs).

This is exactly my misgiving about what we're doing now. We might get every bit as beautiful as it was under Farke, as unplayable at Championship level, only to hit a brick wall again because there isn't the pragmatism and flexibility, which is going to make the change of mood every bit as bad as it was when it all came tumbling down under Farke. 

Still, it's a worry for further down the road, I guess. 

I think Thorup is rather more pragmatic than Daniel.

Apart from anything else, look at the size of our new signings (Forson excepted).

[Pyro Pete 2,343]

Have to agree.

I was watching some poxy little club called Man Utd continually try and play out from the back against Liverpool yesterday. So naive.

Some useless player, who will clearly never win anything, called Casemiro first played a simple pass straight to a Liverpool player, which they subsequently scored from.

Then he got caught in possession, again trying to play fancy passing football at the back, for the second goal.

And, just like Russell Martin's side, they stubbornly carried on in the second half. Some youngster who will also never do anything, called Mainoo, got caught in possession. AGAIN trying to play out. No quality. So naive.

Just kick it long, ffs. Boooooo!

[TheGunnShow 7,358]

36 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

I think Thorup is rather more pragmatic than Daniel.

Apart from anything else, look at the size of our new signings (Forson excepted).

Yep, that was my first thought, not to mention there's more insistence on one full-back going up and the other tucking in for a bit more defensive cover if the ball is turned over. That wasn't the case with Farke, who liked that pitch made as wide as possible in possession and wanted both full-backs bombing on.

Thorup clearly likes powerful units with touch.

[Capt. Pants 4,971]

I hope Martin's Plan A works. I like him and Southampton are easy on the eye. Not only that but if they survive it's a fair chance Ipswich won't.

[Up and Away 91]

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

This style can work with the right players - that's why I believe Farke and Russell could end up in top jobs.

At the elite level, it is the ability to tweak your set up and patterns of play to exploit opposition weakness, game to game and in real time during games, that is key.

RM has his preferred style but lacks this tactical flexibility, including in game.

Slot yesterday made some interesting post-match comments about how they had identified Man U's tactical vulnerability and adjusted their play to exploit it. Which they did ruthlessly. That EVH did not recognise this at the end of the game was quite telling, instead blaming it on player errors. He was tactically outthought.

The best coaches not only possess high level tactical awareness but also drill their teams so that they can execute a plan game by game, and make changes in real time, as needed. 

Edited September 2 by Up and Away

[lake district canary 4,813]

I would rather see us continue to aim for the high ideals and see where it gets us. I really think Farke's methods could have worked in that first PL season had we had just one or two better players brought in at the beginning (down to Webber who admitted failings) and not lost key players to injury.   The second PL season saw exactly the same problems - the wrong type of players brought in (Webber again).  We had very little chance that second season - whoever was manager - because of the players we had.....which made the subsequent sacking of Farke so ridiculous. If anyone was going to turn it round, it was him.

Thorup will hopefully take us on a similar journey - and with Knapper hopefully a bit more savvy about the PL - we might do better if/when that chance comes.

[Up and Away 91]

Just now, lake district canary said:

I would rather see us continue to aim for the high ideals and see where it gets us. I really think Farke's methods could have worked in that first PL season had we had just one or two better players brought in at the beginning (down to Webber who admitted failings) and not lost key players to injury.   The second PL season saw exactly the same problems - the wrong type of players brought in (Webber again).  We had very little chance that second season - whoever was manager - because of the players we had.....which made the subsequent sacking of Farke so ridiculous. If anyone was going to turn it round, it was him.

Thorup will hopefully take us on a similar journey - and with Knapper hopefully a bit more savvy about the PL - we might do better if/when that chance comes.

JHT comes across to me as a modern coach. How he has spoken about recruiting player attributes rather than positions, and how he wants his team to play. If he gets that right, then that can take you a long way in the Champ. It would clearly be more challenging in the Prem against better sides and coaches, but that would be a nice problem to have. 

[littleyellowbirdie 3,128]

2 hours ago, ron obvious said:

I think Thorup is rather more pragmatic than Daniel.

Apart from anything else, look at the size of our new signings (Forson excepted).

That’s certainly the hope. I must say, he shows no signs of hesitation over substitutions, which does hint he might not be too narrow in his approach.

[chicken 3,071]

2 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Levels. 

When you’re better many styles work, when you’re worse less styles can work. 

The gulf in quality is far more relevant than the philosophy or not.
 

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. The gains are in the margins. And they may well not be enough to make a difference anyway. 

The Premier is ruthless. Only weapons can bridge the gap. 

If you want simplicity and example: it’s about weapons (and momentum):

Brentford kept Toney and added Eriksen (well beyond their budget)

We sold Buendia and neutered Pukki (at the upward swing point of promotion)

Parma 

This. And where Hoff has thus far been different is he wants his players to be more tactically flexible.

As has already been mentioned, rather than threatening to get taller players, we actually have this summer, and not by giving up technical ability.

I'd like to think Martin has a bit of Lambert about him considering in an event it was the Scotsman he named as the best manager he'd had. Lambert was pretty flexible in his approach to games, it's an element of why we did well with him in the premier league.

[chicken 3,071]

2 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Levels. 

When you’re better many styles work, when you’re worse less styles can work. 

The gulf in quality is far more relevant than the philosophy or not.
 

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. The gains are in the margins. And they may well not be enough to make a difference anyway. 

The Premier is ruthless. Only weapons can bridge the gap. 

If you want simplicity and example: it’s about weapons (and momentum):

Brentford kept Toney and added Eriksen (well beyond their budget)

We sold Buendia and neutered Pukki (at the upward swing point of promotion)

Parma 

This. And where Hoff has thus far been different is he wants his players to be more tactically flexible.

As has already been mentioned, rather than threatening to get taller players, we actually have this summer, and not by giving up technical ability.

I'd like to think Martin has a bit of Lambert about him considering in an event it was the Scotsman he named as the best manager he'd had. Lambert was pretty flexible in his approach to games, it's an element of why we did well with him in the premier league.

[Danke bitte 1,147]

2 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Pukki did incredibly well to scrape together 11 goals anyway. Bravo to him.

100%. I maintain Pukki was a Prem standard striker. Had he kept having service he would have bagged 15+. Which could have meant the difference in staying up. We, as you always say, lost a pivotal weapon rendering another in a bit part role. Make you realise how truly awful that 21/22 season really was 

[Keith Scott 294]

Russell Martin is just another Scott Parker. 

Yes they have a couple of promotions between them (which they should with the clubs they have managed).

But ultimately they will be found out in the long run as style over substance.

A career in reality T.V beckons for them both.

All the best.

Big Keith Scott.

[Big Vince 420]

Teams with small budgets have to play like Allardyce, Pulis to have any chance whatsoever. And even then you need the weapons like Huth, Shawcross, Arnautovic, Shakiri.

Edited September 2 by Big Vince

[JonnyJonnyRowe 955]

3 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

This is exactly my misgiving about what we're doing now. We might get every bit as beautiful as it was under Farke, as unplayable at Championship level, only to hit a brick wall again because there isn't the pragmatism and flexibility, which is going to make the change of mood every bit as bad as it was when it all came tumbling down under Farke. 

The stubborn refusal to deviate from plan A wasn't Farke's only problem in the Prem, it would be fair to point out (possibly partly through his own making) that we had very little height or physicality in the squad and we too easy to bully. 

We appear to be mostly signing players above 6ft now! 

[JonnyJonnyRowe 955]

41 minutes ago, Keith Scott said:

Russell Martin is just another Scott Parker. 

Yes they have a couple of promotions between them (which they should with the clubs they have managed).

But ultimately they will be found out in the long run as style over substance.

A career in reality T.V beckons for them both.

All the best.

Big Keith Scott.

Russell Martin is waking up next to Lucy Pinder each morning. 

Oh where did it all go wrong Russ 🤣

[Midlands Yellow 4,682]

It’s going to be a long season for Russ, hopefully Lucy can be a positive distraction. 

[hogesar 10,700]

3 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I would rather see us continue to aim for the high ideals and see where it gets us. I really think Farke's methods could have worked in that first PL season had we had just one or two better players brought in at the beginning (down to Webber who admitted failings) and not lost key players to injury.   The second PL season saw exactly the same problems - the wrong type of players brought in (Webber again).  We had very little chance that second season - whoever was manager - because of the players we had.....which made the subsequent sacking of Farke so ridiculous. If anyone was going to turn it round, it was him.

Thorup will hopefully take us on a similar journey - and with Knapper hopefully a bit more savvy about the PL - we might do better if/when that chance comes.

Farke had a say in every signing.

That Farke has changed a considerable amount even at this level with Leeds tells you even he didn't believe his Norwich style could work, especially after failure in Germany and further failure last season.

[Google Bot 3,919]

6 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

It’s going to be a long season for Russ, hopefully Lucy can be a positive distraction. 

Not to mention the wage... I think he'll cope.

[Midlands Yellow 4,682]

Just now, Google Bot said:

Not to mention the wage... I think he'll cope.

Beautiful beard too. 

[Up and Away 91]

24 minutes ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

The stubborn refusal to deviate from plan A wasn't Farke's only problem in the Prem, it would be fair to point out (possibly partly through his own making) that we had very little height or physicality in the squad and we too easy to bully. 

We appear to be mostly signing players above 6ft now! 

The difference in player physicality and athleticism between the PL and the Champ is huge, let alone technical ability.  It makes it so hard for promoted sides to compete, you need to pretty much upgrade your entire starting XI just to have a chance of staying up. 

 

[Aggy 944]

I think it was on talksport this weekend that somebody made a point about  kompany getting the Bayern job…. If you’re a young ambitious manager, playing Big Sam style hoofball isn’t going to get you a top job, even if you keep your side up. If you fail playing good football, implementing a system but with players who just aren’t good enough, then a bigger club might take a punt that your style will work with their better players.

[littleyellowbirdie 3,128]

1 hour ago, Aggy said:

I think it was on talksport this weekend that somebody made a point about  kompany getting the Bayern job…. If you’re a young ambitious manager, playing Big Sam style hoofball isn’t going to get you a top job, even if you keep your side up. If you fail playing good football, implementing a system but with players who just aren’t good enough, then a bigger club might take a punt that your style will work with their better players.

I think you’re right, but I don’t see the sense in it. In my view, a manager who has to have players that fit what he wants to do is inferior to a manager who looks for the best way to get results with what he has.

[non-scoring strikers 153]

4 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I would rather see us continue to aim for the high ideals and see where it gets us. I really think Farke's methods could have worked in that first PL season had we had just one or two better players brought in at the beginning (down to Webber who admitted failings) and not lost key players to injury.   The second PL season saw exactly the same problems - the wrong type of players brought in (Webber again).  We had very little chance that second season - whoever was manager - because of the players we had.....which made the subsequent sacking of Farke so ridiculous. If anyone was going to turn it round, it was him.

Thorup will hopefully take us on a similar journey - and with Knapper hopefully a bit more savvy about the PL - we might do better if/when that chance comes.

People seem to conveniently forget another of Farke’s big red flags.

He would always say how much better the opposition were and how lucky we were to be there, in his pre-match pressers, which would instil little confidence in the squad. And this was evident in both his premier league outings.

My word, we took far too long to sack him. If Knapper were in charge then he woulda pulled the trigger after the first promotion. Arguably the second.

Just because a manager gets you up, it doesn’t mean he’s gonna keep you there. Farke is the biggest case in point.

[ged in the onion bag 959]

It can work but it’s not easy and needs everything to fit in place.   Farke wasn’t far away that first season and the gaps widening.

Fact is though, it needs pace and power throughout the team allied to the necessary quality and strength in depth.    In reality, a club that can’t buy a team needs to develop a squad.   Learn lessons through the process and develop enough players, confidence and an environment where players believe in the system….. not want to leave at the first opportunity.      Not easy, but not impossible.

And CDMs!   🤣