Gareth Southgate; The greatest england manager of all time

[king canary 8,267]

2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Can't add any more reactions today but largely in alignment with my own thought, especially from the comments re. outside his tournament record downwards. I would, however, say that he's the ideal manager for this set of players, and may not quite replicate this success elsewhere.

I also think Southgate is far better suited to international management rather than club management - they are almost two different games in terms of putting a team together and training them together.

Yeah I totally agree. The rumours about him at Man United seem destined for disaster.

[TheGunnShow 6,946]

Just now, king canary said:

Yeah I totally agree. The rumours about him at Man United seem destined for disaster.

Ten Hag signed a new two-year deal recently so that's not going to happen. Rightly so too, it was a rough season for them but it invariably is when you're forever missing star defenders - or indeed most of your defenders. Farke in his first Premier League season could sympathise.

And I'd argue probably the best international manager of all time only had one year at a fairly mediocre club but was either assistant manager at international level or an international manager for the rest of his management career. He ran up one World Cup win, one losing final and a third place, as well as one European Championship win and one lost final. All in the space of ten years within his 14-year run as national manager (his name is Helmut Schön, the former West Germany manager between 1964 and 1978).

And that's before money totally ruined club football.

[Robert N. LiM 5,466]

51 minutes ago, king canary said:

This will probably be quite a long post

Thanks for typing it. Basically agree with all of it.

Especially

51 minutes ago, king canary said:

One argument I have no time for is the 'any manager could do what he did with these players.' I can only assume people who make this argument are no older than 14 OR have never watched football in their lives

and

52 minutes ago, king canary said:

Finally, Southgate (as managers often are) has to a extent fallen victim to his own success

 

[CDMullins 482]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

This will probably be quite a long post and apologies if it covers stuff already discussed- I consciously, for the sake of my blood pressure, opted to steer well clear of this site during/after the game and I don't fancy going back through loads of posts. 

It seems many are expecting Southgate to walk away after this tournament. So how do we assess his time here?

On paper it is undeniably very good- two finals and a semi final, much more than anyone not named Alf Ramsey had achieved. Disappointing not to make it over the final hurdle but still, compared to what came before it is tough to argue it hasn't been a huge success.

What are the arguments against Southgate? Pretty simple ones really. Tactically he has struggled to get the most out of one of our most talented ever attacking squads. He's had some luck with England getting (on paper) easy runs in his tournaments. He's prone to sitting back when we have a lead and that cost us, especially in the final vs Italy. You can argue his tournament record is touch deceptive when you look at the teams faced. In this tournament particularly he's seemed overly reliant on individual bits of skill and at times been too cautious when it comes to dropping or substituting big name players who aren't playing well (Kane and Foden particularly). He reminds me a bit of how Hughton could be when he managed us- reluctant to make a change when winning or drawing because he was much more worried about the negatives that might happen rather than the positive changes they could make. Reactive over proactive.

Outside of his tournament record, some of the other pros are a bit more difficult to measure but definitely exist. 

Firstly, the context on where England were pre his arrival. Out to Iceland in the second round after a turgid group in 2016, bottom of our group in 2014 and a quarter final in 2012. Playing for England felt toxic. The squad was a disjointed mess, trying to move on from the 'golden generation' that promised so much but delivered so little, while struggling to bring through new players. 

So the fact he's restored good feeling to playing for England, that he's skilfully helped bring through a new generation of players and has transitioned from one group to the next without failing miserably at any tournament is a huge plus. There is no doubt players love him and enjoy playing for him. His man management skills seem to be exemplary, which is a huge plus when it comes to international football. 

I believe he was the manager we needed post Euro 2016 but I'm not sure he's the man to take us forward now. If a manager with a bit more tactical acumen can sustain and harness the good feeling Southgate clearly has created in the camp we could go onto more successes. This isn't a given though. I don't want to say 'be careful what you wish for' but a new manager is no guarantee that this squad gets over the hump.

One argument I have no time for is the 'any manager could do what he did with these players.' I can only assume people who make this argument are no older than 14 OR have never watched football in their lives. England have had talented squads before that never sniffed a semi final let alone a final or being a penalty shootout away from lifting the trophy. England have had easy draws before and ****ed them up. I saw us go out to Iceland, finish below Costa Rica, limply fall to defeat against a 10 man Brazilian team etc etc. I've also seen PSG with a front three of Neymar, Messi and Mbappe fall at the first knockout stage in the Champions League, I've seen Man U managers post Sir Alex **** the bed despite having huge funds to assemble squads of world class talent, it is beyond obvious to anyone who follows the game that a great squad can fall short of expectations with the wrong manager. 

Finally, Southgate (as managers often are) has to a extent fallen victim to his own success. It doesn't take much to get England's fans expectations up and some of them have been bizarre. I've seen multiple posts claiming a semi or even the final is the minimum he should be achieving which seems to ignore that there are 15, 23 or even 31 other teams in each tournament who all have their own ambitions and abilities. If the minimum every tournament is making a final then you're doomed to fail most of the time. 

Love the arrogance,

I have no intention of reading your opinions cause I wont like them, but here have mine.

Ballsy.

[king canary 8,267]

18 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

Love the arrogance,

I have no intention of reading your opinions cause I wont like them, but here have mine.

Ballsy.

Not really. More that I know myself and can get a bit trigger happy in the heat of the moment. Much more likely to get a reasonable discussion when the heat has died down. 

[mrD66M 147]

8 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

For me Croatia and Italy will go down as missed opportunities. France I thought we were a bit unlucky as I thought we were the better side and if Kane scored that penalty I’d have fancied us to go on and win it. Today we were beaten by a better side.

100% on this. If it was Italy or Croatia instead of Spain, England would have won. As it is, the current champions are levels above anyone else in world football, never mind Euros,  at the moment. 

It could be worse... imagine a tournament on home soil, getting to the final and losing to a team that scored the record least goals for a finalist and parked the bus all the way.

[mrD66M 147]

15 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

England went into this tournament as favourites

Dunno man. When there are at least 4 teams (Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, even Germany) that have gone all the way to the podium #1 in recent years, it should not be discounted. England should be thought of as a dark horse that has found form at times and been able to go far, but lacking killer instinct.. kinda like Belgium with Kompany, Verthongen, Aldeweireld, Eden Hazard when they still had the chops for it.

Edited July 15 by mrD66M

[CDMullins 482]

1 hour ago, mrD66M said:

Dunno man. When there are at least 4 teams (Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, even Germany) that have gone all the way to the podium #1 in recent years, it should not be discounted. England should be thought of as a dark horse that has found form at times and been able to go far, but lacking killer instinct.. kinda like Belgium with Kompany, Verthongen, Aldeweireld, Eden Hazard when they still had the chops for it.

Factually we were bookies favourites.

And not just because of the locational bias, right across Europe and Vegas we were favourites.

[mrD66M 147]

1 hour ago, CDMullins said:

Factually we were bookies favourites.

Bookies always like easy marks.. 😬

[Ken Hairy 4,138]

Reports coming out that Bellingham let rip at him after the game 

[Yellow Wal 315]

It's time for change.

Edited July 15 by Yellow Wal

[Kingston Yellow 241]

19 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Reports coming out that Bellingham let rip at him after the game 

Don’t tell the woke apologists that. They’ve all been busy reassuring each other they know much more than the rest of us, who know Southgate is a joke.

[Ken Hairy 4,138]

34 minutes ago, Kingston Yellow said:

Don’t tell the woke apologists that. They’ve all been busy reassuring each other they know much more than the rest of us, who know Southgate is a joke.

The big plus, apparently,  is that he's turned the camp into a happy place, I'm not sure that can be totally true.  You've got Foden and Walker who play under Pep, Trent was under Klopp, Bellingham under one of the most successful managers ever in Ancelotti, and they then have to listen to monotone, boring, play it safe Gareth I just don't buy it.

I don't buy that Watkins and Toney can be happy when you've got Kane CLEARLY INJURED playing ahead of then.

Southgate is now moaning about tired players, how must Gordon, Eze, Palmer etc think when they hear that and they didn't get a look in?

Speaking of Gordon what the hell was the point in dropping Grealish, who has featured regularly,  to then not give his replacement more than 3 minutes because I assume he didn't trust him?? Madness. 

I'm sorry, but I'm just not going to understand those Southgate apologists who won't have a bad word said l, luckily away from this site the only ones I know sticking up for him are the part timers who only show up as "fans" for tournaments (**** they get on my ****), literally every real football person I know want him gone. The levels of vitriol may differ (believe it or not I'm one of the more respectful ones towards him that I know 🤣), but every last football fan I know want him gone if they're English, or think he should go if they're not.

[Midlands Yellow 4,487]

40 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

The big plus, apparently,  is that he's turned the camp into a happy place, I'm not sure that can be totally true.  You've got Foden and Walker who play under Pep, Trent was under Klopp, Bellingham under one of the most successful managers ever in Ancelotti, and they then have to listen to monotone, boring, play it safe Gareth I just don't buy it.

I don't buy that Watkins and Toney can be happy when you've got Kane CLEARLY INJURED playing ahead of then.

Southgate is now moaning about tired players, how must Gordon, Eze, Palmer etc think when they hear that and they didn't get a look in?

Speaking of Gordon what the hell was the point in dropping Grealish, who has featured regularly,  to then not give his replacement more than 3 minutes because I assume he didn't trust him?? Madness. 

I'm sorry, but I'm just not going to understand those Southgate apologists who won't have a bad word said l, luckily away from this site the only ones I know sticking up for him are the part timers who only show up as "fans" for tournaments (**** they get on my ****), literally every real football person I know want him gone. The levels of vitriol may differ (believe it or not I'm one of the more respectful ones towards him that I know 🤣), but every last football fan I know want him gone if they're English, or think he should go if they're not.

Would any Premier league club fans want him as their manager? 99% would despair and many in the Championship would too. 

[Midlands Yellow 4,487]

1 hour ago, Ken Hairy said:

Reports coming out that Bellingham let rip at him after the game 

Apparently Southgate replied. 

“You will never work in a place like this again. It’s brilliant. Fact. And you’ll never have another boss like me, someone who’s basically a chilled-out entertainer.” 

 

[paddycanary 567]

Lee Carsley was reportedly top of the list for the Irish job but he turned it down. I wonder was he keeping his powder dry for the England job?

[TheBaldOne66 768]

This is a total joke post isn’t it? 🤷🏼 How the hell can Safegate be considered the greatest manager at all when he put failure down to players being tired, even though he failed to use his squad in a sensible manner by resting players or using his subs better? He only used 3 of the 5 permitted subs in the final ffs, and in just about every game his subs, when he used them, were reactive, not proactive!

That is not how a “great” manager manages 😡

[City 2nd 192]

Who has won NOTHING!

[Ken Hairy 4,138]

7 hours ago, paddycanary said:

Lee Carsley was reportedly top of the list for the Irish job but he turned it down. I wonder was he keeping his powder dry for the England job?

Don't know masses about him, but but all accounts plays a better style of football than Southgate,  more attacking and on the front foot. That's all we need from an international manager, someone playing them the right way for their abilities, doesn't need to be a "name"

[canarydan23 4,561]

11 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Don't know masses about him, but but all accounts plays a better style of football than Southgate,  more attacking and on the front foot. That's all we need from an international manager, someone playing them the right way for their abilities, doesn't need to be a "name"

Won the U21 Euros too

[king canary 8,267]

13 hours ago, Kingston Yellow said:

Don’t tell the woke apologists that. They’ve all been busy reassuring each other they know much more than the rest of us, who know Southgate is a joke.

 

[hogesar 10,271]

13 hours ago, Ken Hairy said:

Reports coming out that Bellingham let rip at him after the game 

 

13 hours ago, Kingston Yellow said:

Don’t tell the woke apologists that. They’ve all been busy reassuring each other they know much more than the rest of us, who know Southgate is a joke.

"Don't tell those who are somewhat defending Southgate's career as England manager something completely fabricated and in complete contrast to a pretty specific defending of Southgate by Bellingham to the media, who went as far as saying he see's Southgate as more than just a manager and contacts him on personal matters too"

[Capt. Pants 4,714]

8 hours ago, paddycanary said:

Lee Carsley was reportedly top of the list for the Irish job but he turned it down. I wonder was he keeping his powder dry for the England job?

I would imagine he is far better paid by the FA and it would be strange move to want to manage Ireland who will struggle to qualify for a major tournament again.

 

[king canary 8,267]

20 minutes ago, hogesar said:

 

"Don't tell those who are somewhat defending Southgate's career as England manager something completely fabricated and in complete contrast to a pretty specific defending of Southgate by Bellingham to the media, who went as far as saying he see's Southgate as more than just a manager and contacts him on personal matters too"

I can't see a single report that Bellingham 'let rip at him after the game.' What I can find is a few saying he got a bit frustrated with him in the second half due to a lack of changes which is understandable. Bellingham is also clearly a lad who wears his emotions on his sleeve.

[king canary 8,267]

12 hours ago, Ken Hairy said:

I'm sorry, but I'm just not going to understand those Southgate apologists who won't have a bad word said

You're arguing against people who don't actually exist. I've yet to see anyone say Southgate should be free of criticism or that he definitly got as much as he could out of these players. Even those who defend him are largely saying 'probably time for a change.'

What sticks in the craw a bit is people like yourself who are incapable of giving him even the smallest bit of credit despite taking England further in major tournaments than anyone else since 1966. The idea he's so utterly useless but has managed to get England a couple of missed penalties away from their first major trophy in 50 years just doesn't make any sense to quite a few people and I'm yet to see a compelling argument that changes that.

[Yobocop 1,327]

Southgate has criminally underachieved as England manager, his tactics are mystifying  and selection policy questionable 

someone I know who works in the game expects to hear news today about his future and I really hope he’s off 

 

[hogesar 10,271]

5 minutes ago, Yobocop said:

Southgate has criminally underachieved as England manager, his tactics are mystifying  and selection policy questionable 

someone I know who works in the game expects to hear news today about his future and I really hope he’s off 

 

By being the best in our entire history bar maybe one?

[hogesar 10,271]

20 minutes ago, king canary said:

I can't see a single report that Bellingham 'let rip at him after the game.' What I can find is a few saying he got a bit frustrated with him in the second half due to a lack of changes which is understandable. Bellingham is also clearly a lad who wears his emotions on his sleeve.

And even that, apparently none of the thousands of photographers thought it was photo-worthy, yet they did take 9000 photos of Southgate pointing and Bellingham standing on the pitch. It's just a pointless attempt at an attack with no substance. Stick to his substitutions or use of certain players, at least that has some legitimacy attached to it.

[Robert N. LiM 5,466]

8 minutes ago, Yobocop said:

his tactics are mystifying  and selection policy questionable 

 

You fear his methods because you don't understand his methods

[Danke bitte 1,112]

It’s been 8 years, he’s done a great job restoring faith and goodwill in the England team but still no trophy and lots of scraping through at times.

The main point is 8 years. Drawing comparisons to Webber (tin hat on), who laid the foundations to improve Norwich, I think it would be nice to get a new face in for the England job.