**The Euro 2024 Thread**

[king canary 8,406]

23 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't manage again. I can't see a big club taking him on, and would he fancy dropping into mid-table after spending so long as England manager? 

I can see him becoming a technical director or something similar. He's well into his 50s now so may want a less stressful role, but one that's still quite high profile and ties in with his experience.

 

Exactly, I've repeated many times in this thread that he's England's second most successful manager of all time after Ramsey, yet so many of the public still think he's some sort of incompetent buffoon.

 

Potter is definitely one of the better options, but I can't think of any who are genuinely good choices. Potter's time at Chelsea was done in six months and was a total disaster. By the sounds of it, the players never really got behind him and he was out of his depth at that level. Hopefully if he does get the England job, he'll have learnt from that experience.

 

Regarding left backs, I'd say we do have another international standard one who is no worse than Shaw, but he's injured. That's Ben Chilwell. I also reckon that had he not ruptured his cruciates in September and put himself out for the season, Rico Henry would've been tried by now. After that, who's left? Tyrick Mitchell?

There are a few top clubs now, Man City and Arsenal being the most notable, who have started using left-footed centre backs at left-back. I read an interesting article on The Athletic recently about how there is a lack of top quality young left backs in world football coming through and the reasons for it. Basically, full backs were always converted centre backs or wingers in the past, as any player who makes it pro was highly likely to have been the star player in their youth team and would not have been wasted at full back. But then when it became a prerequisite for full back to attack, it became almost exclusively wingers. However, a more recent tactical trend is that wingers play on the opposite side to their strongest foot, and it's much more difficult to convert a right-footed left winger or a left-footed right winger to left back. 

Nice reference to Gre-No-Li, by the way 😉

Mitchell should really have been given a chance all things considered- we knew Shaw and Chilwell weren't fit.

If we want to go down the left footed central defender route then the best option for us will be Colwill. 

[Barham Blitz 815]

3 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

But it obviously didn't last and given that qualification for the last 16 is basically assured, surely now it's time to try something else. I agree with @GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary (which always worries me) that Bellingham as the eight, Foden in the ten and an actual left-sided player on the left is probably the best, or least-worst option.

I would probably agree with this, although this is flawed as well (hence the least-worst option I suppose.)  Aside from apparently not having a fit left back in the country, England's main issue is accommodating players with contradictory strengths.

You can't play Foden wide left with Kane dropping into the same three quarter spaces half the time, particularly when there is nobody overlapping on the left to provide a semblance of width.  As I keep saying, England persisted with Rashford and Sterling despite the media frenzy for the talented but slower Grealish, Foden and (to a lesser extent) Maddison for so long because their pace and finishing ability was required to complement Kane's obsession with roaming deeper.  As I've also said elsewhere, he does it because he has strengths in doing so, and because he lack the pace these days to run beyond defences in the way he used to, but if you play him you need to accommodate this in the rest of the set up.

Bellingham's current more advanced role just adds to this congestion. 

If you play Foden centrally, even if he stays further forward so that they don't get in each other's way I genuinely don't think that Kane now has the pace to make the most of Foden's range of passing.  You're also asking Foden to either potentially get beyond him as a support striker or to play with a much greater defensive responsibility. 

It sounds mildly insane, but England need to think about which one out of Foden, Bellingham and Kane they are really building a team around and set the rest of it up accordingly.

If it's Foden, you play him at #10, Bellingham at #8 alongside Rice, play someone with pace and ideally a left foot (for me Gordon) wide left and horror upon horrors, replace Kane with (IMO) Toney rather than Watkins.

If it's Kane, you need pace wide left (Saka is fine on the right) and somebody at #10 that runs beyond him but can still offer a defensive physicality.  That's Bellingham.  Or possibly at a push Palmer.  So again, controversy as Foden misses out.

If it's Bellingham, then you probably end up with Kane up front and pace on the left again, so again no Foden.

The only other formations i can see working involve more fit / decent centre halves than we currently have, two #10s and a kind of Christmas tree wingback scenario.  You could even almost play Kane as one of them.  But again we don't have the left sided option there without Shaw.

For all those castigating Southgate - and (for all my historic defence of him) it has been poor so far this tournament - he is basically playing the football equivalent of Scrabble with a handful of vowels and no consonants.  There is a big call to be made as to which one of the big players he swaps out to make sense of it all in my opinion because I don't think it works with all of them on the pitch at the same time - certainly not without Shaw, and probably not even then.

Which is a long winded way of saying that I agree that this is the least worst option available.  In the absence of Shaw for the next match I'd actually start Toney instead of Kane, drop Bellingham back in with Rice instead of TAA and play Gordon wide left and Foden as a #10.  If that isn't working, I'd bring Kane on for Toney and try Palmer behind him.

Were there really no fit English left backs at all ... ?! 

 

 

 

Edited June 21 by Barham Blitz

[Midlands Yellow 4,586]

Early goal for Austria. 

[Foxy2600 351]

Now this is a decent game of football ⚽️ 

Top our group we could meet either one of these two 

Edited June 21 by Foxy2600
Last 16

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,026]

27 minutes ago, Barham Blitz said:

I would probably agree with this, although this is flawed as well (hence the least-worst option I suppose.)  Aside from apparently not having a fit left back in the country, England's main issue is accommodating players with contradictory strengths.

You can't play Foden wide left with Kane dropping into the same three quarter spaces half the time, particularly when there is nobody overlapping on the left to provide a semblance of width.  As I keep saying, England persisted with Rashford and Sterling despite the media frenzy for the talented but slower Grealish, Foden and (to a lesser extent) Maddison for so long because their pace and finishing ability was required to complement Kane's obsession with roaming deeper.  As I've also said elsewhere, he does it because he has strengths in doing so, and because he lack the pace these days to run beyond defences in the way he used to, but if you play him you need to accommodate this in the rest of the set up.

Bellingham's current more advanced role just adds to this congestion. 

If you play Foden centrally, even if he stays further forward so that they don't get in each other's way I genuinely don't think that Kane now has the pace to make the most of Foden's range of passing.  You're also asking Foden to either potentially get beyond him as a support striker or to play with a much greater defensive responsibility. 

It sounds mildly insane, but England need to think about which one out of Foden, Bellingham and Kane they are really building a team around and set the rest of it up accordingly.

If it's Foden, you play him at #10, Bellingham at #8 alongside Rice, play someone with pace and ideally a left foot (for me Gordon) wide left and horror upon horrors, replace Kane with (IMO) Toney rather than Watkins.

If it's Kane, you need pace wide left (Saka is fine on the right) and somebody at #10 that runs beyond him but can still offer a defensive physicality.  That's Bellingham.  Or possibly at a push Palmer.  So again, controversy as Foden misses out.

If it's Bellingham, then you probably end up with Kane up front and pace on the left again, so again no Foden.

The only other formations i can see working involve more fit / decent centre halves than we currently have, two #10s and a kind of Christmas tree wingback scenario.  You could even almost play Kane as one of them.  But again we don't have the left sided option there without Shaw.

For all those castigating Southgate - and (for all my historic defence of him) it has been poor so far this tournament - he is basically playing the football equivalent of Scrabble with a handful of vowels and no consonants.  There is a big call to be made as to which one of the big players he swaps out to make sense of it all in my opinion because I don't think it works with all of them on the pitch at the same time - certainly not without Shaw, and probably not even then.

Which is a long winded way of saying that I agree that this is the least worst option available.  In the absence of Shaw for the next match I'd actually start Toney instead of Kane, drop Bellingham back in with Rice instead of TAA and play Gordon wide left and Foden as a #10.  If that isn't working, I'd bring Kane on for Toney and try Palmer behind him.

Were there really no fit English left backs at all ... ?! 

 

 

 

You would have to assume he doesnt quite trust Gordon as yet having not used him so far when width on the left was blatantly required.

As you say Kane needs pace to run beyond him , Saka does it on the right and I would still have taken Rashford to do that down the left, I think Man Utd is dragging him down and getting away from that environment would actually have done him good.

There is another option of playing Kane slightly deeper (where he naturally seems to drop to anyway) and playing Watkins ahead of him. We saw how effective that setup could be with the Kane/Son partnership at Spurs

[Foxy2600 351]

Well it was until that load of Polish play acting 

[Daz Sparks 1,539]

A lot of yellow cards. 

[Canary73 293]

Austria look good. Unlucky to lose against France and on this performance they might get the point the need against the Dutch.

[Robert N. LiM 5,754]

Really good post @Barham Blitz

[Barham Blitz 815]

1 hour ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

You would have to assume he doesnt quite trust Gordon as yet having not used him so far when width on the left was blatantly required.

As you say Kane needs pace to run beyond him , Saka does it on the right and I would still have taken Rashford to do that down the left, I think Man Utd is dragging him down and getting away from that environment would actually have done him good.

There is another option of playing Kane slightly deeper (where he naturally seems to drop to anyway) and playing Watkins ahead of him. We saw how effective that setup could be with the Kane/Son partnership at Spurs

I"d agree with that - and one of the options I suggested was Kane as a possible #10 - albeit with Toney- but it doesn't solve the left side issue.

Perhaps Watkins wide left ... But square pegs and all that.  It's a game of tactical whack a mole.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,026]

11 minutes ago, Barham Blitz said:

I"d agree with that - and one of the options I suggested was Kane as a possible #10 - albeit with Toney- but it doesn't solve the left side issue.

Perhaps Watkins wide left ... But square pegs and all that.  It's a game of tactical whack a mole.

                    Rice   Bellingham

          Saka        Kane       Gordon

                           Watkins

Or more radically  3-5-2....

                   Walker   Stones  Guehi

Alex-Arnold   Rice    Bellingham    Trippier

                             Foden

                    Kane       Watkins

[Barham Blitz 815]

5 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

                    Rice   Bellingham

          Saka        Kane       Gordon

                           Watkins

Or more radically  3-5-2....

                   Walker   Stones  Guehi

Alex-Arnold   Rice    Bellingham    Trippier

                             Foden

                    Kane       Watkins

Both possibilities.  The first loses Foden anyway, the second has the usual width issues without Shaw on the left and also loses Saka.  If you move Kane a little further back that is pretty much my Christmas Tree ish option although I'd have gone with Toney up front and probably Saka as the right wingback given that TAA on one flank and Trippier on the other wrong flank would kill the width options completely.  But then I'm not sure there is a "right" answer.

I really think that something has to give in terms of the big 3.  For me at the moment it is either Kane or Foden that gives way which sounds crazy but would rebalance things a little.  The only one who would be in every combination I pick is actually Saka.  Really need Shaw back as well.

[Foxy2600 351]

Here we go -  Anthony Taylor in charge.

 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,026]

3 minutes ago, Barham Blitz said:

Both possibilities.  The first loses Foden anyway, the second has the usual width issues without Shaw on the left and also loses Saka.  If you move Kane a little further back that is pretty much my Christmas Tree ish option although I'd have gone with Toney up front and probably Saka as the right wingback given that TAA on one flank and Trippier on the other wrong flank would kill the width options completely.  But then I'm not sure there is a "right" answer.

I really think that something has to give in terms of the big 3.  For me at the moment it is either Kane or Foden that gives way which sounds crazy but would rebalance things a little.  The only one who would be in every combination I pick is actually Saka.  Really need Shaw back as well.

I really dont see that it needs over complicating any further than...

               Rice    Bellingham

Saka          Foden        Gordon

                  Kane

The only thing that has seemingly prevented this is that the side apparantly has to work around Bellingham as a no.10, where everything else suffers. Whereas in actual fact, in the first two games Bellingham has been playing naturally more as a box to box (which is what his role should be) anyway.

If thats the case, we may aswell play the above side

[Morph 30]

Really good post @Barham Blitz

England have been poor for the majority of the two games we’ve seen. Why can’t Southgate use the last game to experiment a little to see if he can’t solve the problems they have. Too many square pegs, round holes.

been impressed with the two teams playing tonight, France v Holland

[Capt. Pants 4,782]

Griezmann trying to make himself look like Todd Cantwell 🙂

[Ken Hairy 4,207]

France v Netherlands a bit of a snoozefest so far

[Midlands Yellow 4,586]

Fantastic and balanced appraisals on Southgate today. On reflection, I still think he’s crap though. 

Edited June 21 by Midlands Yellow

[The Raptor 1,471]

11 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

France v Netherlands a bit of a snoozefest so far

Luckily the pub was also randomly showing the play off final. Walked in as city went 1-0 up! I guess sky aren't allowed to show the euros so just put old games on!

[Midlands Yellow 4,586]

Just now, The Raptor said:

Luckily the pub was also randomly showing the play off final. Walked in as city went 1-0 up! I guess sky aren't allowed to show the euros so just put old games on!

Brum or Boro? 

[The Raptor 1,471]

Just now, Midlands Yellow said:

Brum or Boro? 

Boro. I left the pub at 2-0 hope we win!

[Barham Blitz 815]

1 hour ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

I really dont see that it needs over complicating any further than...

               Rice    Bellingham

Saka          Foden        Gordon

                  Kane

The only thing that has seemingly prevented this is that the side apparantly has to work around Bellingham as a no.10, where everything else suffers. Whereas in actual fact, in the first two games Bellingham has been playing naturally more as a box to box (which is what his role should be) anyway.

If thats the case, we may aswell play the above side

I suspect that you aren't wrong and that will probably be what he will go with if (as you've suggested yourself) he trusts Gordon to start. 

Indeed it is the least worst option that I was sorting of agreeing with @Robert N. LiM about which started this mini debate.

As I said above though, I would have doubts about Kane getting in Foden's way when he drops deep, his ability to get on the end of Foden's passing when he doesn't and Foden's ability / inclination both to run beyond Kane and to provide midfield defensive support where required as 4-2-3-1 can be very open if the #10 is solely attacking.

But then if I had all the answers I'd be filling out my post-tournament application for the newly vacant manager's post ...

Interesting debate @GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 

[Midlands Yellow 4,586]

15 minutes ago, The Raptor said:

Boro. I left the pub at 2-0 hope we win!

Happy days! Russ dancing in his pants and Naismith on his way here  in due course.

[Barham Blitz 815]

Ah.  Turns out that as soon as the the English officials get involved with VAR it all takes 20 minutes ...

[Ken Hairy 4,207]

**** English refs again, shocking decision,  and of course the first time VAR taking ages is with English officials 🙄

[canarydan23 4,639]

For **** sake.

At least the players and coach aren't the most embarrassing Englishmen at the tournament.

Take a bow Stuart Attwell and Anthony Taylor you pair of tw*ts.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,489]

Trust it to be the English refs. As the laws go, that's the right decision (I think), but it took an age.

[Capt. Pants 4,782]

Finally we see a view from behind the goal. Whilst not in the keeper's eyeline presumably the striker is in the way of the keeper diving which makes him interfering?

[Ken Hairy 4,207]

Just now, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Trust it to be the English refs. As the laws go, that's the right decision (I think), but it took an age.

Has to be obstructing the keepers view, which he clearly wasn't. Awful awful decision

[ricardo 7,844]

Keeper never getting that. It's a goal imo.