**The Euro 2024 Thread**

[Mason 47 1,788]

Not having followed England too closely, so perhaps this has been tried + failed already, why not play TAA as an inverting fullback off of the left?

Seems if LB is a weakness and they want him in midfield, it would make sense 

[Midlands Yellow 4,585]

21 minutes ago, Newtopia said:

Genuinely, he will not struggle to find a role.

At PL level? I’m not so sure. I’d sooner have Smith back if we were managerless.

[Robert N. LiM 5,754]

Not going to get into the Southgate debate since after eight years opinions on him are pretty entrenched. But on the more interesting stuff:

I think TAA in midfield was worth ago (though not entirely sure why you wait until the tournament to do it). In the first half hour against Serbia there was a glimpse of how it might work, with him, Jude and Foden rotating beautifully. I thought it was great to watch: the most fluid I've seen England for years. But it obviously didn't last and given that qualification for the last 16 is basically assured, surely now it's time to try something else. I agree with @GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary (which always worries me) that Bellingham as the eight, Foden in the ten and an actual left-sided player on the left is probably the best, or least-worst option.

One thing I'd also say is that, as always, surely this is the moment we realise these players just aren't as good as we thought they were (or as the media were hyping them). There are some top-class players in the team, but it's a horribly unbalanced squad. And even the top-class players are not uncomplicated. Kane, Foden and Bellingham all like to occupy the same space, so you have to play at least one of them out of position, and encourage another to play against his normal instincts. I very much doubt a club manager would want to buy all three of them. And when we talk about how good our players are, I think we also conveniently ignore that Bellingham is 20, Saka 22, just kids basically, and Foden, the relative veteran, is still only 24.

I know I said I wouldn't talk about Southgate, but one underrated argument for him leaving after the 2022 WC is that actually, this is quite a transitional England team (the three young stars I mentioned, plus Palmer, Mainoo, Wharton). Might not have been the worst idea to signal a new era by restarting with a new coach. Expectations might have been a bit more realistic, whereas all the pre-tournament media talk (insane in my view) was that 'now is the time' for England to win something. Nah. Not with a squad full of kids and three right-backs in the starting XI.

[runs away]

[sgncfc 1,306]

Unfortunately the limited success Southgate has enjoyed as a manager seems to be enough to satisfy a lot of people who can't see or understand what football is about. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is now so common the media have finally caught on - Southgate has never produced a good team to watch, and he doesn't get players to play regularly as they do for their club sides. If you add poor results against not very good teams to being poor to watch the manager finally gets criticism - it took many Norwich fans several months to work out the same thing with Wagner, who coaches from the same book.

Simply put, the talent in this England squad (despite him leaving Maddison and Grealish - two players who would walk into any other squad - at home) is at least equal to any squad here. The depth we have is probably greater than anyone apart from France.

Yes, we will get the result we need against Slovenia. But we all know - and even Southgate must know - that as soon as we play any of the better teams we will lose. It might be on pens, it might be "unlucky" or "undeserved" but we will lose.

We all know that, just as we knew that Norwich could not win at Elland Road playing the Wagner way. Yet we go through it all with pretend hope and support just in case that 1% chance comes good.

We have very little chance of progressing beyond the QFs in this competition with Southgate in charge, unless someone else does us a favour and knocks out one of the better teams as has happened before when he still couldn't take advantage.

Just as Norwich should have got rid of Wagner much earlier, England should get rid of Southgate. They won't though.

 

[sgncfc 1,306]

6 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

these players just aren't as good as we thought they were

I couldn't disagree more. Kane has just eclipsed almost every scoring record in the Bundesliga; Bellingham is frequently classed the best midfielder in Europe after a standout season with RM; Foden is called the best player in the EPL; Palmer, Watkins and Saka score for fun against PL defences containing many of the best defenders in Europe.

Musiala for Germany is recognised as a standout player - is he better than Saka? Doubtful.

Has any European team got a better striker than Kane? Or a better midfielder than Bellingham? Or a better right back than Walker? Or a better goalkeeper than Pickford?

France have more depth maybe, but no one else has a squad quality to compare with England's.

[Capt. Pants 4,781]

Some really good comments on this thread. It sounds as though most feel Southgate has run out of rope, barring a miraculous turnaround and fair wind.

If it means anyone but Southgate, who might that be? Do we stick with english?

Edited June 21 by Capt. Pants

[Robert N. LiM 5,754]

2 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

It sounds as though most feel Southgate has run out of rope, barring a miraculous turnaround and fair wind.

England disappointingly drew the second group game in at least two of the previous three tournaments, and there was similar hand-wringing. Worst we did thereafter was the quarter finals.

They were rubbish yesterday, but the reaction has been just as ridiculous and over the top as the pre-tournament hype was.

[Robert N. LiM 5,754]

1 hour ago, Mason 47 said:

Not having followed England too closely, so perhaps this has been tried + failed already, why not play TAA as an inverting fullback off of the left?

Seems if LB is a weakness and they want him in midfield, it would make sense 

Like that idea a lot, actually

[sonyc 6,076]

8 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

England disappointingly drew the second group game in at least two of the previous three tournaments, and there was similar hand-wringing. Worst we did thereafter was the quarter finals.

They were rubbish yesterday, but the reaction has been just as ridiculous and over the top as the pre-tournament hype was.

I agree with this Robert but I also see and agree with the points made by @sgncfc . The two matches I've watched with England playing have probably been the most boring of all the games played so far.

He just hasn't seemed able to construct a team from such an array of very talented individuals. And it's easy to criticise too (because that's what fans do). Southgate's win percentages are impressive in the grand scheme. But...(there's always a but!)...his teams have rarely inspired over recent years. Perhaps the current malaise (and I've sensed that Shearer, Linekar et al are also critics) will bring about a re-evaluation for Slovenia. It can be saved but he must be braver.

Edited June 21 by sonyc

[Robert N. LiM 5,754]

1 minute ago, sonyc said:

Perhaps the current malaise (and I've sensed that Shearer, Linekar et al are also critics) will bring about a re-evaluation for Slovenia. 

I'm sure it will. Southgate obviously has a lot of questions to answer and there's no doubt that this group should be doing better than they've shown in the first two games. Not sure even Gareth's mum would disagree with that.

Actually, on reflection, not sure why I'm assuming she'd be his biggest fan. She certainly told him what she thought of that penalty in Euro 96 IIRC 

[king canary 8,405]

8 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I agree with this Robert but I also see and agree with the points made by @sgncfc . The two matches I've watched with England playing have probably been the most boring of all the games played so far.

He just hasn't seemed able to construct a team from such an array of very talented individuals. And it's easy to criticise too (because that's what fans do). Southgate's win percentages are impressive in the grand scheme. But...(there's always a but!)...his teams have rarely inspired over recent years. Perhaps the current malaise (and I've sensed that Shearer, Linekar et al are also critics) will bring about a re-evaluation for Slovenia. It can be saved but he must be braver.

I think Southgate was exactly what this England team needed when he first came in- he seemed to help the players relax and enjoy playing for their country which hadn't been the case under previous regimes. I don't doubt he is a strong man manager and is well like by his players. 

It does feel now though that the limits of what he does have been reached and we really need someone who can implement a more modern gameplan going forward.

I don't have time for the idea we're wasting a generation with him right now- this squad is young and has plenty of time to mature. But I'm no longer convinced he is what these players need. 

[king canary 8,405]

1 hour ago, Mason 47 said:

Not having followed England too closely, so perhaps this has been tried + failed already, why not play TAA as an inverting fullback off of the left?

Seems if LB is a weakness and they want him in midfield, it would make sense 

I'd do this- especially as I think it would give you room to drop Bellingham into the 8 position without fear because TAA can come inside and cover when Bellingham bombs forward. 

[Robert N. LiM 5,754]

11 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't have time for the idea we're wasting a generation with him right now- this squad is young and has plenty of time to mature. But I'm no longer convinced he is what these players need

This was exactly what I was trying to say but you put it much better.

And actually I think the OTT criticism of a coach who has done better than all his predecessors since Sir Alf has probably got in the way of a more nuanced view like that. (As has people like me reactively defending him to be fair.)

Edited June 21 by Robert N. LiM

[king canary 8,405]

2 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

This was exactly what I was trying to say but you put it much better.

And actually I think the OTT criticism of a coach who has done better than all his predecessors since Sir Alf has probably got in the way of a more nuanced view like that. (As has people like me reactively defending him to be fair.)

Yeah I've found some of the criticism has gotten my back up in the past. If he goes after this tournament then it doesn't suddenly mean he has been a failure or his critics were right all along- just that his time has run out. 

[Robert N. LiM 5,754]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

Yeah I've found some of the criticism has gotten my back up in the past. If he goes after this tournament then it doesn't suddenly mean he has been a failure or his critics were right all along- just that his time has run out. 

That's the internet, right? Forces people into extreme positions when the truth usually lies somewhere in between.

[sonyc 6,076]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yeah I've found some of the criticism has gotten my back up in the past. If he goes after this tournament then it doesn't suddenly mean he has been a failure or his critics were right all along- just that his time has run out. 

Agree with this. 100% he hasn't been a failure. History will judge him very positively. Agree too about when he came in and arguably it was Southgate's "time". He spoke well, articulately (and intelligently). He just appears to be TOO defensive when you could argue he perhaps ought to have been bolder - especially with his formations (rather than personnel). I also agree about the pipeline of players. It all looks positive. I could see the next progressive national coach being very successful. 

 

[king canary 8,405]

1 minute ago, sonyc said:

Agree with this. 100% he hasn't been a failure. History will judge him very positively. Agree too about when he came in and arguably it was Southgate's "time". He spoke well, articulately (and intelligently). He just appears to be TOO defensive when you could argue he perhaps ought to have been bolder - especially with his formations (rather than personnel). I also agree about the pipeline of players. It all looks positive. I could see the next progressive national coach being very successful. 

 

I saw that Potter to Leicester is off now- maybe Southgate has already decided he's done after this  tournament and Potter has been tapped as his replacement. 

[sonyc 6,076]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

I saw that Potter to Leicester is off now- maybe Southgate has already decided he's done after this  tournament and Potter has been tapped as his replacement. 

He has been top of the odds lists for a while now. And I saw that he is not going to Leicester and made the 2+2 calculation. I would welcome such an appointment. Articulate, thoughtful with the media (not an idiot!) and gets players playing very expressive football. Not much to dislike. 

I've posted before that even if Southgate wins the Euros (or not) I think he will be off.

[PurpleCanary 6,211]

3 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

My post was defending Southgate's record rather than England's. 

I agree that England's tournament record for a country of our size and stature within the game is very poor. 

A fair point re Southgate. For football England are not my team. Mine sometimes qualify for major tournaments and sometimes not. If not I transfer to Italy.

What I find baffling, just from skim-reading, is that seemingly with Shaw injured England do not have another international-standard left-back. And are lacking even one such ditto standard to make the midfield work. And this from the biggest and richest league in the world.

Or is that the problem? That club managers needing to fill gaps in their squads will go overseas for an established player rather than develope someone homegrown and England-qualified?

This happened in Italy after WW2. The big clubs went to countries not affected by the war in South America, and Sweden, and hoovered up the talent. Especially in creative positions. Milan simply acquired (no transfer fees, as they were amateurs) the Swedish international inside-forward trio.

But the national team, which had won the two World Cups before the war, went into decline, culminating in losing to North Korea in 1966. The Italian FA promptly banned overseas players (not possible now, of course,) and the national team recovered somewhat.

[PurpleCanary 6,211]

11 minutes ago, king canary said:

I saw that Potter to Leicester is off now- maybe Southgate has already decided he's done after this  tournament and Potter has been tapped as his replacement. 

May or may not have been a factor with Potter, but Leicester could end up with a points deduction. 

[Google Bot 3,711]

28 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think Southgate was exactly what this England team needed when he first came in- he seemed to help the players relax and enjoy playing for their country which hadn't been the case under previous regimes.

The way football has changed during that period is a big factor too, you no longer have the likes of Ferguson who's raising an army of players to actively dislike their rivals, and most of them are close friends thanks to how connected they are through social media, agents and whatsapp groups.

Not dismissing his ability to facilitate a good environment, but it's a lot easier in the era of management he finds himself.

[Sheva 146]

Excellent Ukraine win coming from behind, very positive, good shape plenty of controlled passion 👏

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,026]

2 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Not going to get into the Southgate debate since after eight years opinions on him are pretty entrenched. But on the more interesting stuff:

I think TAA in midfield was worth ago (though not entirely sure why you wait until the tournament to do it). In the first half hour against Serbia there was a glimpse of how it might work, with him, Jude and Foden rotating beautifully. I thought it was great to watch: the most fluid I've seen England for years. But it obviously didn't last and given that qualification for the last 16 is basically assured, surely now it's time to try something else. I agree with @GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary (which always worries me) that Bellingham as the eight, Foden in the ten and an actual left-sided player on the left is probably the best, or least-worst option.

One thing I'd also say is that, as always, surely this is the moment we realise these players just aren't as good as we thought they were (or as the media were hyping them). There are some top-class players in the team, but it's a horribly unbalanced squad. And even the top-class players are not uncomplicated. Kane, Foden and Bellingham all like to occupy the same space, so you have to play at least one of them out of position, and encourage another to play against his normal instincts. I very much doubt a club manager would want to buy all three of them. And when we talk about how good our players are, I think we also conveniently ignore that Bellingham is 20, Saka 22, just kids basically, and Foden, the relative veteran, is still only 24.

I know I said I wouldn't talk about Southgate, but one underrated argument for him leaving after the 2022 WC is that actually, this is quite a transitional England team (the three young stars I mentioned, plus Palmer, Mainoo, Wharton). Might not have been the worst idea to signal a new era by restarting with a new coach. Expectations might have been a bit more realistic, whereas all the pre-tournament media talk (insane in my view) was that 'now is the time' for England to win something. Nah. Not with a squad full of kids and three right-backs in the starting XI.

[runs away]

They all come round eventually

[king canary 8,405]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

May or may not have been a factor with Potter, but Leicester could end up with a points deduction. 

This is pretty public knowledge yet Potter apparently got quite far along in negotiations so I can't imagine it broke down because of that.

[Barham Blitz 815]

3 hours ago, Mason 47 said:

Not having followed England too closely, so perhaps this has been tried + failed already, why not play TAA as an inverting fullback off of the left?

Seems if LB is a weakness and they want him in midfield, it would make sense 

From an attacking perspective this makes a lot of sense - TAA's range of passing could actually benefit from being played from the "wrong" side.

Defensively however he was less then stellar on his "correct" side.

[PurpleCanary 6,211]

29 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

They all come round eventually

They really don't...🤩

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,488]

3 hours ago, Midlands Yellow said:

At PL level? I’m not so sure. I’d sooner have Smith back if we were managerless.

I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't manage again. I can't see a big club taking him on, and would he fancy dropping into mid-table after spending so long as England manager? 

I can see him becoming a technical director or something similar. He's well into his 50s now so may want a less stressful role, but one that's still quite high profile and ties in with his experience.

 

1 hour ago, king canary said:

Yeah I've found some of the criticism has gotten my back up in the past. If he goes after this tournament then it doesn't suddenly mean he has been a failure or his critics were right all along- just that his time has run out. 

Exactly, I've repeated many times in this thread that he's England's second most successful manager of all time after Ramsey, yet so many of the public still think he's some sort of incompetent buffoon.

 

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

He has been top of the odds lists for a while now. And I saw that he is not going to Leicester and made the 2+2 calculation. I would welcome such an appointment. Articulate, thoughtful with the media (not an idiot!) and gets players playing very expressive football. Not much to dislike. 

I've posted before that even if Southgate wins the Euros (or not) I think he will be off.

Potter is definitely one of the better options, but I can't think of any who are genuinely good choices. Potter's time at Chelsea was done in six months and was a total disaster. By the sounds of it, the players never really got behind him and he was out of his depth at that level. Hopefully if he does get the England job, he'll have learnt from that experience.

 

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

A fair point re Southgate. For football England are not my team. Mine sometimes qualify for major tournaments and sometimes not. If not I transfer to Italy.

What I find baffling, just from skim-reading, is that seemingly with Shaw injured England do not have another international-standard left-back. And are lacking even one such ditto standard to make the midfield work. And this from the biggest and richest league in the world.

Or is that the problem? That club managers needing to fill gaps in their squads will go overseas for an established player rather than develope someone homegrown and England-qualified?

This happened in Italy after WW2. The big clubs went to countries not affected by the war in South America, and Sweden, and hoovered up the talent. Especially in creative positions. Milan simply acquired (no transfer fees, as they were amateurs) the Swedish international inside-forward trio.

But the national team, which had won the two World Cups before the war, went into decline, culminating in losing to North Korea in 1966. The Italian FA promptly banned overseas players (not possible now, of course,) and the national team recovered somewhat.

Regarding left backs, I'd say we do have another international standard one who is no worse than Shaw, but he's injured. That's Ben Chilwell. I also reckon that had he not ruptured his cruciates in September and put himself out for the season, Rico Henry would've been tried by now. After that, who's left? Tyrick Mitchell?

There are a few top clubs now, Man City and Arsenal being the most notable, who have started using left-footed centre backs at left-back. I read an interesting article on The Athletic recently about how there is a lack of top quality young left backs in world football coming through and the reasons for it. Basically, full backs were always converted centre backs or wingers in the past, as any player who makes it pro was highly likely to have been the star player in their youth team and would not have been wasted at full back. But then when it became a prerequisite for full back to attack, it became almost exclusively wingers. However, a more recent tactical trend is that wingers play on the opposite side to their strongest foot, and it's much more difficult to convert a right-footed left winger or a left-footed right winger to left back. 

Nice reference to Gre-No-Li, by the way 😉

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,026]

2 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

They really don't...🤩

In this instance they do.

I said right from the outset that Bellingham should be the midfield dynamo as the no.8 in a Bryan Robson or Steven Gerrard style as England's needs for him are different to that of Madrids....now it seems most pundits and ex players are saying the same

[Canary73 291]

Austria v Poland about to start - should be good given the value of a win

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,026]

This chap Gerhard Aigner is getting an awful lot of minutes applauses?!?