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Ulfotto

Is Wagner entitled to be annoyed?

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Look he was obviously going if we didn’t get promoted. Aside that he is too nice a guy to have a pop at the club. 
 

Is he entitled to say he did the job with at least one hand tied behind his back and was essentially on a hiding to nothing.

Last season we finished 13th and this season we have made the playoffs. With a worse squad of players and a squad where  5 of our top scorers have missed large chunks of the season. Sargent missed 23 games, Rowe 15, Sainz 14, Barnes 12 and Idah 19 games.

Last night and over the last three games the team looked jaded and lacking energy. What happened in January the squad was weakened rather than strengthened. Leaving fewer and fewer options.

Will be interesting to see how it plays out over time.

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I think he'll have read between the lines and expected to have been going this summer.

Starting when we ignored his pleas for reinforcements in January.

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He’s entitled to feel any way he wants. But the reality is he has not managed us well - Sarge saved his blushes and he proved very one dimensional and very poor with in game management. 

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I think it depends on what Knapper wanted from him. Certainly when considering what happened the previous season and also how badly hit with injury the team was, combined with trimming a bloated squad, he did pretty well to get 6th out of the team, even if the "scrambling" nature of the second half of the season was exposed at the back end with fatigue.

On league performance alone, he could feel slightly hard done-by, as could Liam Rosenior at Hull. But I suspect he already knew his days were numbered and pride meant he tried everything he could to get us as high up as he could.

Said in another thread that he can leave with his head held fairly high. He shouldn't see a reputational loss due to this showing.

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I don't think anyone cares now.

Stuart Webber gave him a job, then promptly left.

From that moment on his days were numbered.

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I think the move to separate now is good for all parties. He gets to leave with his head held high as a manager who got a side into the play offs and we can move on to a new manager of knappers choosing who hopefully plays football in a way that can fulfill the potential of the squad we will build over the summer. Hopefully a pass and move possession based high energy high pressing team. 

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Posted (edited)

It wouldn't surprise me to see David Wagner pop up in the MLS now like Dean Smith.

He's got 8 caps for the USA, wouldn't even need to bother with the visa application.

Edited by JonnyJonnyRowe

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Yes we had injuries but he didn't really adapt to mitigate the impacts. 

He can feel a bit let down by the players, especially last night which was an absolute bottlejob with key players like Rowe and Sara hiding.

In my opinion individual brilliance got us into the play-offs rather than attractive attacking football and when that dried up we were never good enough.

Nobody can be surprised he has been sacked there just never seemed a way we could move forward with him.

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2 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Rowe and Sara hiding.

Sara played out of position on the right wing. Sainz dropped all so we could play 3 crocks in attack. Poor tactical decisions from Wagner with the retrospectacles on. If it had worked he'd have been hailed as a genius! (Like when Stuart Pearce played David James up front)

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A lot of the games Sainz missed were because he didn't pick him. He left Nunez out too often as well. 

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He probably will be but that's life.    He joined under S&J and webber who agreed lasts summers experienced spend.

Since he was appointed webber handed in his notice and MA has equal ownership and business direction of travel, including signing knapper.    

Wagner knew from knappers first public pronouncement that the webber wagner vision were completely at odds to the new order.   Whilst he has regrets today's outcome it was inevitable.

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29 minutes ago, Deptford Yellow said:

I thought they’d at least leave it a day before announcing he was a gonna

I think that suggests Knapper was bloody annoyed. Plus the BOD had no problem in signing it off so quickly as well.

Harsh, but that's football.

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1 minute ago, Capt. Pants said:

I think that suggests Knapper was bloody annoyed. Plus the BOD had no problem in signing it off so quickly as well.

Harsh, but that's football.

I think it is mainly so he and the players can say their goodbyes in person before they all go off on their holidays. 

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1 hour ago, Soldier on said:

Pinkun boys say he would have gone if promoted too.

Who are the Pinkun boys sounds like a pop group from the 60’s

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3 minutes ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

I think it is mainly so he and the players can say their goodbyes in person before they all go off on their holidays. 

Sure there must be a queue of £30000 a week NCFC queuing up to say goodbye 

Probably the majority don’t give a **** 

There interested in one thing money

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11 minutes ago, daly said:

Who are the Pinkun boys sounds like a pop group from the 60’s

Sounds more like K-Pop to me. Ugh!

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50 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

A lot of the games Sainz missed were because he didn't pick him. He left Nunez out too often as well. 

He missed the first two months of the season with an ankle injury.

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6 minutes ago, Ulfotto said:

He missed the first two months of the season with an ankle injury.

And spent another 2 months getting pointless minutes at the end of games before finally being given a start, weeks after fans were calling for his inclusion in the XI.

The amount of points his poor decisions have cost us is incredible.

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Posted (edited)

Of course he has a right to be annoyed. He delivered playoffs despite getting less than zero support in January - in fact Knapper took options away from him.

But ultimately those in football will be plenty aware of that and he will have options.

Hes benefitted - his CV would have been ignored before he joined us but after the second half of this season he will have options in this country and back in Germany I suspect.

Edited by hogesar
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Going into this season it was always promotion or bust for Wagner, that's why we went so heavy on experienced win-now players and near enough removed the requirement that previous managers have had to develop youth while also getting results. I guess he would say that top 6 was him meeting expectations, and maybe he'd say had it not been for injuries we'd have pushed higher up the league. Truthfully I think there was still a massive chasm between the top 4 and the rest and I'm not sure a fully fit squad would've made much difference. 

Now that we know we're in the championship again, and with parachute payments coming to an end, it's clear that changes need to be made. The squad needs to be younger and cheaper than it is right now, Wagner said last night about how changes were required but I don't think his and Knapper's vision of what that looks like would align. Clearly Knapper has made the decision himself to sack him based on the last 6 months but if they'd sat down I can't really see a scenario where Wagner would be massively keen on the new challenge. 

Even if he had been willing to start playing young players and maybe a certain brand of football, he doesn't have a great track record of the former in the first place. If he had stayed the lingering doubt from the stands would still be there too, if you want a fresh start the manager is the obvious place to make a change.

 

 

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He made the play offs. And fell to Leeds. He’s certainly entitled to feel angry that he’s lost his job given the finish. And he will feel there is mitigation for the poor results earlier in the season, given our injuries. The squad depth was also lacking. 
 

Add all that together and he achieved this season, in the end. 
 

But my god did he have some luck. I’ve never know such a lucky manager. Performances were woeful at times yet we were getting results due to some of the individual talent in our team. 
His decision making was making it even harder to get those points. 
 

He’s gone because despite of all the above, he is very limited, often has a poor Plan A - yet alone a lack of Plan B. 

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3 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

He’s entitled to feel any way he wants. But the reality is he has not managed us well - Sarge saved his blushes and he proved very one dimensional and very poor with in game management. 

Farke was just as one dimensional in fairness, I think it’s a fairly continental trait of always playing in the same manner. The few foreign games I’ve seen you never seem to get the mix of styles that you see in English football, or the last 10 minutes of hundreds of balls being pumped into the box when chasing a game.

The big difference though is Farke had Pukki and Buendia fit for over 90% of his tenure. If he had lost both Buendia for the amount of time we were missing Sarge there’s no chance we win the league in either of those seasons 

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10 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Farke was just as one dimensional in fairness, I think it’s a fairly continental trait of always playing in the same manner. The few foreign games I’ve seen you never seem to get the mix of styles that you see in English football, or the last 10 minutes of hundreds of balls being pumped into the box when chasing a game.

The big difference though is Farke had Pukki and Buendia fit for over 90% of his tenure. If he had lost both Buendia for the amount of time we were missing Sarge there’s no chance we win the league in either of those seasons 

Yup, I always think people saying any manager are "one dimensional" based on playing their best players is just plain daft and tends to underline a lack of footy understanding.

Most of the teams at this level tend to build around 2-3 players, more if they have them. Under Lambert it was primarily Hoolahan and Holt - as an example.

The good teams tend to be the ones that have back up that slot in nicely. Take the season we had Pukki and then the other options were Hugill and Idah. Neither Hugill and Idah can play the way Pukki does, Pukki is pretty unique in that sense. The problem then becomes relying on being able to find players that can play to Pukki's strength and then that informs our play. Build too much around one player and you can suffer when they are injured. That didn't really happen to Pukki, but we lost the way to play to him.

I said at the time, but in hindsight, they should have taken the deal the summer before he left for nothing. Given more time to someone else up front.

However, back to the main point at hand. The best teams in this division tend to have players who can step in for one another without any drastic change to the way the team plays. Rowe for Sainz for example, they play differently but both fit into our system and how we like to play. You can switch them for each other. Sainz is one of the reasons why we didn't miss Rowe as much as we could have if there was no Sainz.

So to say that Sargent saved Wagner's blushes is rubbish. Not only that, but our good home form started in November didn't it? Sargent wasn't back until the very end of the year, early January, especially not playing full games. And he clearly hasn't been 100% yet since either.

I think the issue for me is that Barnes has nearly always been players in a similar way to Stiepermann was. Not goal-getter enough to be an outright striker, but with a bit of vision (see his ball for Sargent) and enough of a nuisance to help other strikers to take advantage of his flustering of defenders. The problem with that is that we haven't had a 2nd choice striker for Sargent really. Idah needed the loan, whether he asked for it, or did something to trigger it. Whilst he looked good coming off the bench against tiring legs that had been run down by the player he was replacing, he could never quite replicate it in the starts he was given. He needed an environment with less pressure to get going, he found it - possibly to our detriment now too.

I think we have a neat little core at the moment, no doubt some will move on this summer but: Gunn, Stacey, Nunez, McClean, Sara, Sainz, Rowe and Sargent are all sound. But if you look back on this season, bar Stacey, Sara and McClean, they have all been out for a number of games. Some of them at the same time. Some overlapping. Add into that Barnes who early doors was certainly very much helping the younger players and get the team gee'd up. 

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Posted (edited)

Yes.. but tbh, he was more than fortunate to survive that run before Xmas.. on balance he can’t be that surprised. Or maybe not surprised at all. It’s possible an agreement  to part ways was made back in Jan? 

Bloody nice guy though… disappointing how the club have treated him this season.

Edited by Creedence Clearwater Couto

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51 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

Yes.. but tbh, he was more than fortunate to survive that run before Xmas.. on balance he can’t be that surprised. Or maybe not surprised at all. It’s possible an agreement  to part ways was made back in Jan? 

Bloody nice guy though… disappointing how the club have treated him this season.

I think he'd have been unfortunate not to survive that run considering, as Parma would say, he had no "weapons" left fully fit on the pitch bar Rowe and Sara, and yet our home form stems back to November, so it wasn't all bad.

Perhaps, just perhaps, this was always a sort of likely outcome. Knapper's arrival was brought forward, but it is quite possible that he wanted to bring in his own manager this summer anyway. Webber going early meant it was too son for Knapper to have really delved deeply into that market. By January, at which point he had been in post long enough to have a good look, form was turning and there was no real gain to risking a change. Especially if there were no plans to strengthen in January. It'd risk us possibly mounting an attack on the play-offs.

I know the suggestion is he was going no matter what, but I still think that him going after play-off success would have depended very much upon fan reaction. I do sort of agree with Sutton in that we most likely would have been destroyed in the premier league but I still don't think you can think like that and not want promotion. I don't think Ipswich are all that great, they certainly looked toothless Vs us compared to at least Leicester, Leeds and Southampton.

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