Jim Smith 2,610 Posted January 11 (edited) Not entirely sure if that’s the game at Bournemouth when he came down from the stands or his official first game on the touch line. We were mid table with a team underperforming. We missed automatic promotion by one point, made the playoffs comfortably and the rest is history. Why are so many people, including it appears the board, prepared to just write off this season and wait til the summer before doing anything? Admittedly we probably had a slightly better side then but this side is clearly capable of much better than we’ve seen recently and of pushing for that top 6 if we change coach and make an astute signing or two. I do not understand why we’ve not already done both in January. Edited January 11 by Jim Smith 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lincsy88 106 Posted January 11 Is it though? Lets just compare XIs from both teams for a second: Ruddy v Gunn Whittaker v Stacey Martin v Hanley Bassong v Gibson Olsson v Giannoulis Tettey v McClean Howson v Sara Redmond v Rowe - Cannot pick between the two Hoolahan v Barnes Johnson v Sainz Jerome v Sargent Not forgetting that 14/15 team had Hooper, Dorrans, Grabban, O'Neil, Turner, Lafferty, strength in depth. Don't get me wrong this squad is underachieving but only slightly, it's more the style of play for me that is so disappointing. Wagner needs to go, his football is stinking the place out but this squad is nowhere near the Play-Off winning squad. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Satriales 993 Posted January 11 Great day out at Wembley! 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
king canary 8,754 Posted January 11 Not quite correct. After the win at Bournemouth when he came down from the stands we sat 7th, 1 point off the playoffs. Currently we're 13th and 5 points off the playoffs. The gap isn't unsurmountable but it is important to remember it isn't just about the points- it is that we have to outperform at least 7 of the teams above us by multiple points over the last 20 games. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,610 Posted January 11 (edited) 30 minutes ago, lincsy88 said: Is it though? Lets just compare XIs from both teams for a second: Ruddy v Gunn Whittaker v Stacey Martin v Hanley Bassong v Gibson Olsson v Giannoulis Tettey v McClean Howson v Sara Redmond v Rowe - Cannot pick between the two Hoolahan v Barnes Johnson v Sainz Jerome v Sargent Not forgetting that 14/15 team had Hooper, Dorrans, Grabban, O'Neil, Turner, Lafferty, strength in depth. Don't get me wrong this squad is underachieving but only slightly, it's more the style of play for me that is so disappointing. Wagner needs to go, his football is stinking the place out but this squad is nowhere near the Play-Off winning squad. It’s not about whether this team would beat that team (although I would argue Gunn and Sargent are better than Ruddy and Jerome), as I’ve said that team was probably a little stronger. The point is that, also bearing in mind the quality of the other sides, it’s clearly not too late to get into the top 6 and the playoffs if action is taken. Edited January 11 by Jim Smith Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lincsy88 106 Posted January 11 9 minutes ago, Jim Smith said: It’s not about whether this team would beat that team (although I would argue Gunn and Sargent are better than Ruddy and Jerome), as I’ve said that team was probably a little stronger. The point is that, also bearing in mind the quality of the other sides, it’s clearly not too late to get into the top 6 and the playoffs if action is taken. I'm not saying that, your saying that team was probably a little stronger, I would argue it was a lot stronger. I agree its not to late but I would also argue we are not good enough for the Play-Offs and don't have the quality to compete in them. I would say a 7th-11th place finish is about par with this squad. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigFish 2,282 Posted January 11 21 minutes ago, Jim Smith said: It’s not about whether this team would beat that team (although I would argue Gunn and Sargent are better than Ruddy and Jerome), as I’ve said that team was probably a little stronger. The point is that, also bearing in mind the quality of the other sides, it’s clearly not too late to get into the top 6 and the playoffs if action is taken. The last thing the club needs is knee-jerk short termism - we have had enough of this. That is assuming that doing something, doing anything would be able to turn this round or even that Wagner can't yet redeem himself. The EPL money would be handy but can anyone imagine a side based on these foundations in the EPL? If strategic change comes it needs to be methodical, planned and well thought out ahead of action. The January window is no place for it. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ray 111 Posted January 11 1 hour ago, Jim Smith said: Not entirely sure if that’s the game at Bournemouth when he came down from the stands or his official first game on the touch line. We were mid table with a team underperforming. We missed automatic promotion by one point, made the playoffs comfortably and the rest is history. Why are so many people, including it appears the board, prepared to just write off this season and wait til the summer before doing anything? Admittedly we probably had a slightly better side then but this side is clearly capable of much better than we’ve seen recently and of pushing for that top 6 if we change coach and make an astute signing or two. I do not understand why we’ve not already done both in January. To put this in perspective, he came down and asked the coaching team what they would do, he then asked the captain what he would do, it was the opposite to what the coaches said, he went with the captain, which probably says a lot given the then captain is manager of a high flying Championship team. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Conrad 235 Posted January 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, lincsy88 said: Is it though? Lets just compare XIs from both teams for a second: Ruddy v Gunn Whittaker v Stacey Martin v Hanley Bassong v Gibson Olsson v Giannoulis Tettey v McClean Howson v Sara Redmond v Rowe - Cannot pick between the two Hoolahan v Barnes Johnson v Sainz Jerome v Sargent Not forgetting that 14/15 team had Hooper, Dorrans, Grabban, O'Neil, Turner, Lafferty, strength in depth. Don't get me wrong this squad is underachieving but only slightly, it's more the style of play for me that is so disappointing. Wagner needs to go, his football is stinking the place out but this squad is nowhere near the Play-Off winning squad. I would have Howson over Sara. Edited January 11 by Conrad 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,610 Posted January 11 45 minutes ago, BigFish said: The last thing the club needs is knee-jerk short termism - we have had enough of this. That is assuming that doing something, doing anything would be able to turn this round or even that Wagner can't yet redeem himself. The EPL money would be handy but can anyone imagine a side based on these foundations in the EPL? If strategic change comes it needs to be methodical, planned and well thought out ahead of action. The January window is no place for it. It is not “knee jerk short termism” to sack a coach who is failing, has been failing for a year and who pretty much everyone acknowledges needs to be removed. it’s also not knee jerk short termism to do something to try and get promoted before the parachute payments run out and we have to sell our only remaining gems. Not doing anything is negligent inertia. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrdi 411 Posted January 11 That 2014-15 squad was better & stronger across the board. We were one of the favourites for promotion after 3 seasons in the Premier League too - so expectations were very different from the outset. Seems strange to think that Neil Adams went having won two games by a 5-goal margin in his last month, yet I remember that last defeat against Reading feeling utterly depressing. Alex Neil did a fantastic job to bring the best out of them. Team spirit was great and that day at Wembley was one of the best & most memorable as a football supporter for me. It's not so much the like-for-like comparisons of players here - we're in a very different situation as a club. We had McNally at the helm too, he wasn't one to f about. We don't have that degree of ruthlessness here right now. We're no longer expected to get promotion. We're playing dire football, the atmosphere is grim. I don't think that a change should be done to 'save the season' - it's longer-term than that. Sure, a shot in the arm of a 'new manager bounce' would be lovely - if that comes with a surge to be in contention of play-offs, then even better. Albeit hard to imagine right now. But didn't we have that this time last year too, until the momentum went and we drifted along to the end of the season, with a season-low position as reward? Wagner's always felt like something of a stopgap for me, I was surprised he wasn't let go after that abject 1 win in 11 end to last season. No wonder it feels like an ongoing state of flux. I go back to McNally. He wanted promotion, wasn't prepared to accept anything but. He had a target, went for it. Do the current lot even have a vision, let alone a target? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,610 Posted January 11 4 minutes ago, mrdi said: That 2014-15 squad was better & stronger across the board. We were one of the favourites for promotion after 3 seasons in the Premier League too - so expectations were very different from the outset. Seems strange to think that Neil Adams went having won two games by a 5-goal margin in his last month, yet I remember that last defeat against Reading feeling utterly depressing. Alex Neil did a fantastic job to bring the best out of them. Team spirit was great and that day at Wembley was one of the best & most memorable as a football supporter for me. It's not so much the like-for-like comparisons of players here - we're in a very different situation as a club. We had McNally at the helm too, he wasn't one to f about. We don't have that degree of ruthlessness here right now. We're no longer expected to get promotion. We're playing dire football, the atmosphere is grim. I don't think that a change should be done to 'save the season' - it's longer-term than that. Sure, a shot in the arm of a 'new manager bounce' would be lovely - if that comes with a surge to be in contention of play-offs, then even better. Albeit hard to imagine right now. But didn't we have that this time last year too, until the momentum went and we drifted along to the end of the season, with a season-low position as reward? Wagner's always felt like something of a stopgap for me, I was surprised he wasn't let go after that abject 1 win in 11 end to last season. No wonder it feels like an ongoing state of flux. I go back to McNally. He wanted promotion, wasn't prepared to accept anything but. He had a target, went for it. Do the current lot even have a vision, let alone a target? But if a change needs to be made anyway, you may as well make it when it brings a chance of saving the season, not when there is no hope anyway. Surely? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrdi 411 Posted January 11 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Jim Smith said: But if a change needs to be made anyway, you may as well make it when it brings a chance of saving the season, not when there is no hope anyway. Surely? Well, yes. I want Wagner out, have done since the end of last season. As I say though, this is a very different club than it was 9 years ago, the squad quality & character more so. In 2015, there was the genuine sense of making positive change and with each resultant win it felt as though it was working. We'd been winning and hardly playing terribly to that point anyway. There's so much to fix this time around - with every passing weekend it feels like we're getting further from being where & who we need to be. Maybe I've already abandoned hope for this season as a result; but as I also say above, if someone comes in and performs minor miracles between now and May, how good would that be? Unfortunately, I can't shake the feeling that the board are willingly sat on their hands and Wagner's going nowhere. Edited January 11 by mrdi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,610 Posted January 11 7 minutes ago, mrdi said: Well, yes. I want Wagner out, have done since the end of last season. As I say though, this is a very different club than it was 9 years ago, the squad quality & character more so. In 2015, there was the genuine sense of making positive change and with each resultant win it felt as though it was working. We'd been winning and hardly playing terribly to that point anyway. There's so much to fix this time around - with every passing weekend it feels like we're getting further from being where & who we need to be. Maybe I've already abandoned hope for this season as a result; but as I also say above, if someone comes in and performs minor miracles between now and May, how good would that be? Unfortunately, I can't shake the feeling that the board are willingly sat on their hands and Wagner's going nowhere. I fear you are right and in my view that’s an utter disgrace if so. Where we perhaps disagree is I’m not convinced the squad is as bad or as far off it as many people seem to think. We are judging many of the players in that 2015 team by what they achieved after Neil came in. Before that many were not pulling up trees. I think we have enough good players in this side to comfortably be in the top six but they are being coached and deployed really, really terribly. Unfortunately with every week we waste, the opportunity for someone to come in and have enough time for it to make a difference this season recedes. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrdi 411 Posted January 11 1 minute ago, Jim Smith said: I fear you are right and in my view that’s an utter disgrace if so. Where we perhaps disagree is I’m not convinced the squad is as bad or as far off it as many people seem to think. We are judging many of the players in that 2015 team by what they achieved after Neil came in. Before that many were not pulling up trees. I think we have enough good players in this side to comfortably be in the top six but they are being coached and deployed really, really terribly. Unfortunately with every week we waste, the opportunity for someone to come in and have enough time for it to make a difference this season recedes. Maybe Wembley retrospectively applies a rose tint to that squad; it's easy to selectively forget the 0-4 at Boro, the home defeats to Charlton & Reading, etc... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lincsy88 106 Posted January 11 1 hour ago, Conrad said: I would have Howson over Sara. Yer was a tough call to be fair. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dylanisabaddog 6,133 Posted January 11 Looking at those two teams there is one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb and that is the individual and collective attitudes of the players. If I was a Championship standard player (obviously I'm not and never was) I wouldn't fancy playing against a team including the likes of Bassong, Howson, Johnson and Jerome. The current bunch wouldn't bother me in the slightest, they just roll over if they get tickled. Whatever successful period you look back at in our history you will find talented individuals mixed with hard nosed professionals. Lambert identified that on day 1 when he made Holt the captain. The only person like that in the squad now is Barnes and sadly he's past his best. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ec-p 117 Posted January 11 (edited) I’d add Hanley and Kenny as players who work hard and give a damn and could be considered’ hard nosed professionals’. Hard pushed to think of anyone else from our current squad though. Pukki would’ve qualified too. Edited January 11 by ec-p 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrdi 411 Posted January 11 43 minutes ago, lincsy88 said: Yer was a tough call to be fair. I'd have both of them, ditch Tettey. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheGunnShow 7,377 Posted January 11 14 minutes ago, ec-p said: I’d add Hanley and Kenny as players who work hard and give a damn and could be considered’ hard nosed professionals’. Hard pushed to think of anyone else from our current squad though. Pukki would’ve qualified too. And Duffy, for his lack of pace and clear ring rust this season too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Worthy Nigelton 1,299 Posted January 11 2 hours ago, Conrad said: I would have Howson over Sara. Howson was such a good player. Me too... although it is close. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigFish 2,282 Posted January 11 3 hours ago, Jim Smith said: It is not “knee jerk short termism” to sack a coach who is failing, has been failing for a year and who pretty much everyone acknowledges needs to be removed. it’s also not knee jerk short termism to do something to try and get promoted before the parachute payments run out and we have to sell our only remaining gems. Not doing anything is negligent inertia. Of course it is knee jerk short termism. Nothing about it speaks to a future beyond the next twenty games. When we sacked Farke we didn't have a plan, when we sacked Smith we didn't have a plan and now you suggest we sack Wagner again without a plan. Have you learnt anything? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Commonsense 802 Posted January 11 3 hours ago, Conrad said: I would have Howson over Sara. Not sure that Grabban and especially the awful Lafferty are a sign of strength in depth! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daisy 145 Posted January 11 I would have Alex over Wagner at the moment. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
king canary 8,754 Posted January 11 4 hours ago, Jim Smith said: It is not “knee jerk short termism” to sack a coach who is failing, has been failing for a year and who pretty much everyone acknowledges needs to be removed. it’s also not knee jerk short termism to do something to try and get promoted before the parachute payments run out and we have to sell our only remaining gems. Not doing anything is negligent inertia. It depends on the plan though doesn't it? Sacking Wagner to hire a manager with the express aim of promotion this season and no space to lay down foundations for the longer term would be short-termism. If Knapper has a coach he believes is the best option for us long term in mind and he can get him right now then I'd say great, go do it. If he has one that he wants but knows that coach won't be available until the end of the season then it would be short term thinking to sack Wagner and hire someone else as a hit and hope type option. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raunds canary 238 Posted January 11 I'd have Jerome over Sargent every day of the week and grabban was decent on his day. And Howson would still do a job now 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canario 268 Posted January 11 6 hours ago, BigFish said: The last thing the club needs is knee-jerk short termism - we have had enough of this. That is assuming that doing something, doing anything would be able to turn this round or even that Wagner can't yet redeem himself. The EPL money would be handy but can anyone imagine a side based on these foundations in the EPL? If strategic change comes it needs to be methodical, planned and well thought out ahead of action. The January window is no place for it. I'm all for making change now as there is zero point sticking with Wagner. However the above makes good points. If change were to happen before the end of the season, giving rhe new guy a chance to get his (or her?!) Feet under the table then all good. However its far more the Norwich way to allow Wagner all summer, the first 10 games of next season and then wrote off that one too! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sgncfc 1,330 Posted January 11 8 hours ago, Jim Smith said: they are being coached and deployed really, really terribly. This is the crux of it for me. We don't actually know how good most of our players are because they are either not playing in their best position or are being asked to play differently in their favourite position. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kingston Yellow 259 Posted January 11 11 hours ago, Conrad said: I would have Howson over Sara. Agree. Everyone with a brain would take that squad over the current one. And the manager. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JonnyJonnyRowe 972 Posted January 11 Amazing really that it was 9 years ago, and he's still only 42. He looked 45 then. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
