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Sooty57

Should Wagner stay?

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1 somewhat lucky win against a poor Cardiff and suddenly some posters have forgotten his appalling losing record. Should be sacked tomorrow, regardless. But he’ll be in the dugout in charge of a humiliating loss at Portman Road, no doubt.  

Edited by S_81
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6 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Good OP and some interesting comments here. It's an unusually difficult decision given the change of SD. My take:

First, I disagree with this:

While we have undoubtedly lost our way, we remain a big club at this level with a loyal fanbase, an outstanding academy and training set-up. Lots of recent promotions to the PL and a new minority owner with access to cash to help us go beyond the 'self-funding' model. The very fact we're underachieving at the moment makes us a very good prospect for an ambitious coach.

 

But I very much agree with this:

Yesterday's win has definitely bought Wagner and Knapper a bit of breathing space in that regard. I'm sure Knapper would like to take some time before deciding whether Wagner is the right man for the short term, let alone the medium/long term.

But, if this is true:

then perhaps Knapper doesn't feel he needs the time. As @Sooty57says:

And, this is an extremely good point:

Said this before, but it seems to me that Wagner's problem is that we almost always need to score three to win a game. The fact that we somehow did this yesterday (with the aid of some fairly dodgy Cardiff defending, including an own goal), doesn't alter the fact that we are far too easy to play against, and, more worryingly, that Wagner doesn't even seem to recognise it, let alone address it.

Of course, a win will do wonders for the confidence of the squad, and the arrival of the new SD, coupled with the international break, gives a nice sense of a new start without having to sack the coach. But I don't really think Wagner answered any questions yesterday: in fact, with the bizarre selection of Płacheta at left-back, you might even say he raised more concerns. Does anyone think he'll be here this time next year? And if so, why are we not moving on now?

Not really sure what my conclusion is. I guess the best-case scenario for the club is that Wagner does well enough over the next few games to allow Knapper to take his time thinking about a new coach, or that Knapper already knows who he wants. The worst-case scenario is that Wagner has bought himself a bit more time, but doesn't do anything meaningful with it, and we are having the same conversation in a month, possibly after a traumatic afternoon down the road...

Pretty perfect summary.

I can't see a scenario where Wagner is the long term solution- I think he's likely gone in the near future.

If Knapper has someone in mind he wants then he should not let this result cloud his vision. Wagner isn't worth risking potentially missing out on his number one target. 

If Knapper has a shortlist but isn't 100% sure then keeping Wagner while he works it out isn't unthinkable, although it might have been had we lost on Saturday. Largely if we can stay above relegation from in the short term then we shouldn't knee jerk, especially if we have no clear standout for in the coaching staff for a caretaker.

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I doubt knapper will see him as a long term answer but it is vital to get the next appointment right.  With the win in the bag, i think knapper will take his time and give him a few games.  Hopefully knapper can bring a younger manager who wants to build for the future.  We have had too much short term thinking these last few years.

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The people saying Wagner is the long term solution -

What are you basing this on? The man has objectively failed massively in every job he has had since 2017. There is nothing to me to suggest he is the long term solution. Isn’t it something like 14 wins in 45 games?

His rigidity to a style and system is a very telling sign. He’s a man with no plan B and a massively creaky plan A.

Out.

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2 hours ago, Captain Holt said:

The people saying Wagner is the long term solution -

What are you basing this on? The man has objectively failed massively in every job he has had since 2017. There is nothing to me to suggest he is the long term solution. Isn’t it something like 14 wins in 45 games?

His rigidity to a style and system is a very telling sign. He’s a man with no plan B and a massively creaky plan A.

Out.

I don't think many (or even any) of us are saying  he is the long term solution. What some of us are arguing, including me, is that we don't want another key decision made in too much haste (Dean Smith, Wagner).

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12 hours ago, king canary said:

Pretty perfect summary.

I can't see a scenario where Wagner is the long term solution- I think he's likely gone in the near future.

If Knapper has someone in mind he wants then he should not let this result cloud his vision. Wagner isn't worth risking potentially missing out on his number one target. 

If Knapper has a shortlist but isn't 100% sure then keeping Wagner while he works it out isn't unthinkable, although it might have been had we lost on Saturday. Largely if we can stay above relegation from in the short term then we shouldn't knee jerk, especially if we have no clear standout for in the coaching staff for a caretaker.

Indeed, I like Wagner and want him to succeed even though he’s been pretty poor in management and results!

I will just say now would be the perfect time to make the change and I have hope that Knapper has a plan, people already in place ready to go!

With just over 6 weeks to January, it would be good for any new coach to have this time to bed in, assess the playing staff, make what changes he can and hopefully loan in a couple players to make the difference in our form!

Like others I don’t think we’re too far away from a very good 11 when everyone is fit, but we seriously lack a solid CDM a Skipp type and a number 10 who can unlock defences, maybe loan in someone like Emile Smith Rowe who is out of favour (yes I know he’s on high wages and probably no chance) but such like! Send Hwang back and save on his wages.

Edited by Indy
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2 hours ago, Mello Yello said:

Suella's just been sacked.....Can she do a job here?....

We'd probably been having discussions with Cameron! Sunak's ****ed that up! 🙂 

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5 hours ago, Captain Holt said:

The people saying Wagner is the long term solution -

What are you basing this on? The man has objectively failed massively in every job he has had since 2017. There is nothing to me to suggest he is the long term solution. Isn’t it something like 14 wins in 45 games?

His rigidity to a style and system is a very telling sign. He’s a man with no plan B and a massively creaky plan A.

Out.

No one has said this though, unless you regard a month or 6 weeks until January long term.

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On 12/11/2023 at 16:04, RobJames said:

Curious then that you have now removed that comment

"the board won't make any funds available""

I have not removed anything (other than a small typo in original, which I believe was done before your previous post). 

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10 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

I don't think many (or even any) of us are saying  he is the long term solution. What some of us are arguing, including me, is that we don't want another key decision made in too much haste (Dean Smith, Wagner).

Lack of haste is the problem. How long does it take to sack a failing head coach?

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32 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

Lack of haste is the problem. How long does it take to sack a failing head coach?

Slightly less time than it takes to appoint another failing head coach apparently :classic_wink:

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7 hours ago, Big Vince said:

Lack of haste is the problem. How long does it take to sack a failing head coach?

It's not how long it takes to sack that's important - it's appointing the right person. After the last two duds, and where we are in the league, if we get this one wrong we're in big trouble.

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Apparently Knapper is a stats man. So here are Wagner’s stats since he left Huddersfield. A long spell with three different clubs which should give a good account of his current effectiveness in the game. 

games played 120 
games won 46  
games drawn 31 
games lost 43 

Win rate % 38.3

incidentslly this is better than his overall record which is a win rate of 35.2%

That makes any belief in some long term success with him at the helm a hope more than an expectation.
 

So does our goals/shots against columns this season - which are the worst in the entire league - a league we are meant to be competitive in. 

If using stats the writing is on the wall. Nor do injuries to strikers explain the woeful defending. 

knapper risks tarnishing his own reputation before he even settles if Wagner is in the dugout for our next fixture. He will look ponderous and uncertain at best- out of his depth and a yes man at worst. 

By all means put an interim coach in place - if you need time to hire the right person. But leaving him there given the toxic atmosphere and insane tactics and subs and recent performances- this season and last is not sensible. 

Cant think of another club in the football league who wouldn’t have sacked him already just based on the stats alone 

Edited by Dean Coneys boots
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4 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Apparently Knapper is a stats man. So here are Wagner’s stats since he left Huddersfield. A long spell with three different clubs which should give a good account of his current effectiveness in the game. 

games played 120 
games won 46  
games drawn 31 
games lost 43 

Win rate % 38.3

incidentslly this is better than his overall record which is a win rate of 35.2%

That makes any belief in some long term success with him at the helm a hope more than an expectation.
 

So does our goals/shots against columns this season - which are the worst in the entire league - a league we are meant to be competitive in. 

If using stats the writing is on the wall. Nor do injuries to strikers explain the woeful defending. 

knapper risks tarnishing his own reputation before he even settles if Wagner is in the dugout for our next fixture. He will look ponderous and uncertain at best- out of his depth and a yes man at worst. 

By all means put an interim coach in place - if you need time to hire the right person. But leaving him there given the toxic atmosphere and insane tactics and subs and recent performances- this season and last is not sensible. 

Cant think of another club in the football league who wouldn’t have sacked him already just based on the stats alone 

There isn't a toxic atmosphere though, and the fans at Cardiff were in good voice and full of celebrations with the players at the end of the game. I suggest that is partially why he's still here.

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7 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

It's not how long it takes to sack that's important - it's appointing the right person. After the last two duds, and where we are in the league, if we get this one wrong we're in big trouble.

Not important! Norwich City lost 12 points in four games prior to Cardiff. That could easily be the difference between staying up and going down.

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