A couple of possible set-up changes.

[TheGunnShow 7,377]

A problem we seem to have had on a semi-recurring basis is a vulnerability to a counter-attack, hence many of us thinking "we really could use a Tettey replacement". At the same time, certainly from Farke onwards, we've liked to get width in our attacks. With Farke it was mainly the full-backs but almost with three number tens behind a striker that thrived on channel balls and balls in behind an advancing defence. Smith tried to remedy this by telling the full-backs not to get so far up.

Wagner seems to be trying to have two genuine box-to-box midfielders and an attacker with immense work rate. And with Sargent, it looked pretty tasty as we were able to keep up a right old lick and with BOTH Barnes and Sargent there, we had the choice of going long to mix it up as both could hold it up and take the pressure off the defence. Since then though, it's fallen down quicker than Katie Price's knicker elastic.

I'm thinking of a couple of options. We've generally played with BOTH wingers AND attacking full-backs. For me, that's something you do when chasing a game, but we look vulnerable when playing teams lying deep with a counter-attacking threat as all that width means we're light down the middle if we lose it. Hence situations where we have 70% possession, but concede a few, or indeed even six. 

So I'd be inclined to do one - if not indeed both - of the following for our starting eleven, but change away from these depending on the in-game situation:

1. Ditch the wingers and play something more akin to the Christmas Tree. 4-3-2-1. Giannoulis and Stacey for width as we know both can cross and both have pace to burn. McLean, Gibbs, Forshaw, Lungi as options for the deeper three, Sara, Nunez, Sainz or Barnes in the attacking two, and a sole striker up top. If it turns out we need to widen the pitch more, that can easily switch to two wingers, and with the likes of Rowe, Placheta, Springett and Hernandez on the bench, we do have short-term bursts of pace and explosiveness that could unsettle tiring defenders.

2. Ditch the number 10 and stiffen up the centre of the pitch, either a straight-up midfield three, or a deeper-lying midfielder behind McLean and Sara. For this, I'd keep the wingers as a starting point but this can reverse what I am thinking of with 1, if the game is too open, ditch the wingers and start to gum up the middle more.

Basically, be tighter and more present in the middle of the pitch to hide the lack of pace in our centre-halves.

[Channon’s Windmill 416]

Drop Gibson.

[keelansgrandad 6,680]

We dominated possession in the first half but the transition was so slow. We are either not capable of moving the ball quicker or those receiving the ball aren't making space.

Its up to the coach to sort it.

We can't even drop the useless Gibson. We have nobody else.

[TheGunnShow 7,377]

1 hour ago, Channon’s Windmill said:

Drop Gibson.

I agree - it's surely time to try Batth or even Warner out. But I will add the caveat that a misshapen midfield will naturally expose a defence - it just happens to be we have a centre-half pairing that relies on the full-backs for a semblance of pace.

[Petriix 3,219]

The problem is we've massively downgraded in quality in the final third. Under Farke we were a formidable attacking threat because Pukki, Cantwell, Dowell, Vrancic, Buendia, Stiepermann between them gave teams real problems. Sargent was looking decent in the early days of this season, as was Rowe but we've got nothing else going for us.

Teams can commit more players in attack because they're not afraid of us hurting them if they lose the ball. We're playing wingers too high and wide who are isolated in attack while ineffective in defence. We're getting outnumbered in midfield and teams always have an easy, progressive pass. 

People keep blaming the defenders for not getting close to their man, failing to notice that they're outnumbered because our midfield are out of position. We'd be far better sitting deeper and being harder to break down; then we could look to get in behind with quick transitions and better movement from deeper. 

It's painful watching Idah and Hwang both facing away from goal, barely moving. We need attackers looking to run off the shoulder of the last man.

Ultimately we just don't have the quality to compete in this league yet we play with an arrogance that suggests we think we're better than we are. This leaves us wide open because the players seem surprised every time we lose the ball.

I think we need to play with a bit more honesty and emphasise being solid and disciplined, looking to pounce on mistakes rather than overcommitting and being exposed. It's what Leicester demonstrated so well on Wednesday. 

[canarydan23 4,761]

4 minutes ago, Petriix said:

yet we play with an arrogance that suggests we think we're better than we are

Yes, but we beat Huddersfield, Millwall, an utterly abject Stoke and Hull don't you know. That proved Webber had done an awesome job and Wagner was amazing and the appalling tripe that was served up at the back end of last season was nothing to worry about.

Wins against poor teams have just hoodwinked some of us into thinking that Wagner was something other than a failing and desperate Sporting Director turning to his mate to dig the football club out of the Grand Canyon sized hole his appalling decisions have found us in. Unfortunately, just like with Dean Smith, his pre-Norwich record was enough to suggest it would not be a good appointment.

We're in a carbon-copy of last season. Just have to hope when the inevitable happens and Wagner is removed, Stuart Webber has absolutely nothing to do with appointing his replacement.

[Capt. Pants 5,008]

Can't see us ditching the wingers. It's the only position we have strength in numbers.

Even 4-3-3 would have worked better, well that's essentially what we did 2nd half. Unfortunately Giannoulis and Stacey are great going forward but not great defenders. McLean and Sara are slow midfielders and Gibson and Duffy must be the slowest CHs in the league.

Sadly we're now seeing why Dean Smith was reluctant to throw the fullbacks forward - we have no pace in midfield and still haven't addressed that.

As soon as the opposition run at us our limitations are horribly exposed.

[norfolkngood 1,174]

19 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Can't see us ditching the wingers. It's the only position we have strength in numbers.

Even 4-3-3 would have worked better, well that's essentially what we did 2nd half. Unfortunately Giannoulis and Stacey are great going forward but not great defenders. McLean and Sara are slow midfielders and Gibson and Duffy must be the slowest CHs in the league.

Sadly we're now seeing why Dean Smith was reluctant to throw the fullbacks forward - we have no pace in midfield and still haven't addressed that.

As soon as the opposition run at us our limitations are horribly exposed.

 

Something Leicester were trying striker dropping deep CB Follows him the ball over top into space  then race between striker and CB ,

We have been found out by the smart coaches , we lack pace at CB ,play 2 in the midfield so as soon as we attack the 2 CM's are moving forward exposing slow CB's if play breaks down 

a  Good CDM would counter that but wagner does not want that ,

to have 70 % of the ball and lose 6-2 is totally unacceptable ,

just goes to show how poor we are at using the ball and how good plymouth were when they had it 

[Barham Blitz 869]

5 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

A problem we seem to have had on a semi-recurring basis is a vulnerability to a counter-attack, hence many of us thinking "we really could use a Tettey replacement". At the same time, certainly from Farke onwards, we've liked to get width in our attacks. With Farke it was mainly the full-backs but almost with three number tens behind a striker that thrived on channel balls and balls in behind an advancing defence. Smith tried to remedy this by telling the full-backs not to get so far up.

Wagner seems to be trying to have two genuine box-to-box midfielders and an attacker with immense work rate. And with Sargent, it looked pretty tasty as we were able to keep up a right old lick and with BOTH Barnes and Sargent there, we had the choice of going long to mix it up as both could hold it up and take the pressure off the defence. Since then though, it's fallen down quicker than Katie Price's knicker elastic.

I'm thinking of a couple of options. We've generally played with BOTH wingers AND attacking full-backs. For me, that's something you do when chasing a game, but we look vulnerable when playing teams lying deep with a counter-attacking threat as all that width means we're light down the middle if we lose it. Hence situations where we have 70% possession, but concede a few, or indeed even six. 

So I'd be inclined to do one - if not indeed both - of the following for our starting eleven, but change away from these depending on the in-game situation:

1. Ditch the wingers and play something more akin to the Christmas Tree. 4-3-2-1. Giannoulis and Stacey for width as we know both can cross and both have pace to burn. McLean, Gibbs, Forshaw, Lungi as options for the deeper three, Sara, Nunez, Sainz or Barnes in the attacking two, and a sole striker up top. If it turns out we need to widen the pitch more, that can easily switch to two wingers, and with the likes of Rowe, Placheta, Springett and Hernandez on the bench, we do have short-term bursts of pace and explosiveness that could unsettle tiring defenders.

2. Ditch the number 10 and stiffen up the centre of the pitch, either a straight-up midfield three, or a deeper-lying midfielder behind McLean and Sara. For this, I'd keep the wingers as a starting point but this can reverse what I am thinking of with 1, if the game is too open, ditch the wingers and start to gum up the middle more.

Basically, be tighter and more present in the middle of the pitch to hide the lack of pace in our centre-halves.

A fair summation of the issues - at least without Josh and Barnes being available which worked pretty well from a defensive perspective when they were fit in terms of the press which is integral to the way Wagner wants to play.  I suggested exactly this potential issue as part of my reservations regarding Wagner before pre-season on here (and oddly suggested a similar Christmas tree approach) but had to admit to being pleasantly surprised with how well it had worked before the two injuries - without them it just isn't workable as evidenced today.

Without the boxing off in front of the opposition centre backs that Josh and Barnes provided we are just way too open - especially with the two full backs high which then exposes Sara's lack of defensive positioning (although again I have to say he has massively improved in that this season) and he and Kenny are just totally outnumbered on the break which exposes the Duffy and Gibson combo as (to quote myself) glacially slow, particularly if they get drawn out as was happening at times against Leicester.

I do think that Fassenacht has a bit more about him than a chalk on the boots winger though, so him and Rowe could play the wide attacking roles as more inside forwards / attacking midfielders in a 4-2-3-1 with Idah as the striker, Sara slightly more advanced or at least with greater license than two of Kenny, Forshaw or Gibbs behind. Wagner won't do it as I think he sees Gibbs purely as a #10 but I really don't know why.

With the players we have, I just don't see us abandoning wingers, but we do absolutely need more bodies centrally.  It might be down to losing Barnes and Sargent, it might be that teams have worked us out, but something needs to change, at least until they are back.  I would also worry that we are putting a hell of a load on Stacey at the moment in the current system and without him we would be in real trouble.

 

[TheGunnShow 7,377]

5 hours ago, Barham Blitz said:

A fair summation of the issues - at least without Josh and Barnes being available which worked pretty well from a defensive perspective when they were fit in terms of the press which is integral to the way Wagner wants to play.  I suggested exactly this potential issue as part of my reservations regarding Wagner before pre-season on here (and oddly suggested a similar Christmas tree approach) but had to admit to being pleasantly surprised with how well it had worked before the two injuries - without them it just isn't workable as evidenced today.

Without the boxing off in front of the opposition centre backs that Josh and Barnes provided we are just way too open - especially with the two full backs high which then exposes Sara's lack of defensive positioning (although again I have to say he has massively improved in that this season) and he and Kenny are just totally outnumbered on the break which exposes the Duffy and Gibson combo as (to quote myself) glacially slow, particularly if they get drawn out as was happening at times against Leicester.

I do think that Fassenacht has a bit more about him than a chalk on the boots winger though, so him and Rowe could play the wide attacking roles as more inside forwards / attacking midfielders in a 4-2-3-1 with Idah as the striker, Sara slightly more advanced or at least with greater license than two of Kenny, Forshaw or Gibbs behind. Wagner won't do it as I think he sees Gibbs purely as a #10 but I really don't know why.

With the players we have, I just don't see us abandoning wingers, but we do absolutely need more bodies centrally.  It might be down to losing Barnes and Sargent, it might be that teams have worked us out, but something needs to change, at least until they are back.  I would also worry that we are putting a hell of a load on Stacey at the moment in the current system and without him we would be in real trouble.

 

The bit in bold is precisely why it works without a CDM when both Barnes and Sargent are fit. Wagner's right there as a good team will defend from the front. The problem is that Idah and Hwang don't have the same savvy or work rate. Now I'm not saying they're lazy by any means, but Sargent is so strong in terms of being willing to hare after anything that moves, practically anyone else looks sluggish in comparison.

I agree that paradoxically, we probably have too many wingers to ditch them completely at this moment in time, so ditching the number 10 to reinforce the centre of the park looks the best move with both Barnes and Sargent out.

[chicken 3,084]

We did better with the change after half time with Forehaw coming in.

Maybe we should revert to 4-2-3-1 and go with Forshaw and McLean, Sara ahead of them and Rowe and another out wide. Go with Idah up top or consider Fas up there as an option? 

 

[hogesar 10,762]

12 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

I agree - it's surely time to try Batth or even Warner out. But I will add the caveat that a misshapen midfield will naturally expose a defence - it just happens to be we have a centre-half pairing that relies on the full-backs for a semblance of pace.

I dont, Duffy was the one individually culpable for at least 3 goals.

Forshaw should get a start alongside McLean and Sara needs to be told not to try and play passes directly into a Plymouth player when we are high up the pitch - particularly if he's only going to jog back. 

[hogesar 10,762]

12 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Yes, but we beat Huddersfield, Millwall, an utterly abject Stoke and Hull don't you know. That proved Webber had done an awesome job and Wagner was amazing and the appalling tripe that was served up at the back end of last season was nothing to worry about.

Wins against poor teams have just hoodwinked some of us into thinking that Wagner was something other than a failing and desperate Sporting Director turning to his mate to dig the football club out of the Grand Canyon sized hole his appalling decisions have found us in. Unfortunately, just like with Dean Smith, his pre-Norwich record was enough to suggest it would not be a good appointment.

We're in a carbon-copy of last season. Just have to hope when the inevitable happens and Wagner is removed, Stuart Webber has absolutely nothing to do with appointing his replacement.

I note that some posters kept incredibly quiet in those winning match threads and post-debate.

Certainly no one referred to Wagner as Webbers mate on here until basically today. Shame some posters don't have the courage of their convictions to state it after a win.

[BroadstairsR 2,273]

We need a complete re-think until the Sargent/Barnes combo is back in full flow and ready for the run-in. It is a question now of grinding out results to make sure we are in there with a chance for the latter part of the season. Hopefully we can unload one or two and then strengthen in the January window. 

We need, imo, to go more defensive, stack the midfield, have one up-front and perhaps forget about being the league's highest scorers for the time being. The three injuries have been cruel for sure, pin pointedly cruel almost as if designed by a being who doesn't much like us and a Binner dream come true for sure, but trying to replicate the early season form with substandard replacements is naive in the extreme.

Sara, our best player by some distance now needs to be utilised where he can most affect the scoreboard and that means further forward. Forshaw could become vital whilst playing to Idah's strengths such as they are seems to be the only option unless Hwang becomes anything more than the disaster that he currently is or one of the youth contingent bursts through the ranks.

A complete turnaround of tactics until the New Year please Mr. Wagner. I lust hope that he does not see it differently.