Head coach-manager-manager-head coach-head co......

[lake district canary 4,816]

With Webber leaving, are we happy to have a new Sporting Director with a head coach, or do we want to revert to the CEO/manager set up? Arguments for both, but with Webber/Farke - it seemed to work, at least to start with.....an interesting sideline though is that Farke insisted at Leeds that his role is as manager, not a head coach. That suggests to me that he felt he didn't have enough control over things in his time with us.

The Sporting Director role is a big role at a club, but the distinctions between a CEO and an SD don't seem to be that different to me, so what is best, CEO or SD?  Maybe Farke would have been better in the PL if he'd been a manager and had more control over transfers, as he has now in his new job......

Edited July 20, 2023 by lake district canary

[hogesar 10,753]

17 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

With Webber leaving, are we happy to have a new Sporting Director with a head coach, or do we want to revert to the CEO/manager set up? Arguments for both, but with Webber/Farke - it seemed to work, at least to start with.....an interesting sideline though is that Farke insisted at Leeds that his role is as manager, not a head coach. That suggests to me that he felt he didn't have enough control over things in his time with us.

The Sporting Director role is a big role at a club, but the distinctions between a CEO and an SD don't seem to be that different to me, so what is best, CEO or SD?  Maybe Farke would have been better in the PL if he'd been a manager and had more control over transfers, as he has now in his new job......

This isn't true. Gretar Steinsson as Technical Director as well as Nick Hammond at Leeds are basically combining to do the Webber role and will have the same power on transfers.

[lake district canary 4,816]

3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

This isn't true. Gretar Steinsson as Technical Director as well as Nick Hammond at Leeds are basically combining to do the Webber role and will have the same power on transfers.

The two you mention are there to manage the transfers, but Farke - as manager - has the list of players he wants and they are backing him, rather than the other way round. It was Farke's wish to get Ampadu - and they got him.  With Webber, Farke wanted certain players but didn't get them - he'd wanted Ampadu while he was with us too - now that may be more down to our club's inability to attract players and finances, but Farke will get much more of his own way at Leeds - and that means he has more control over transfers than he did at Norwich.

[hogesar 10,753]

5 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

The two you mention are there to manage the transfers, but Farke - as manager - has the list of players he wants and they are backing him, rather than the other way round. It was Farke's wish to get Ampadu - and they got him.  With Webber, Farke wanted certain players but didn't get them - he'd wanted Ampadu while he was with us too - now that may be more down to our club's inability to attract players and finances, but Farke will get much more of his own way at Leeds - and that means he has more control over transfers than he did at Norwich.

Why are you making things up?

Farke got the final say on Ampadu, like he always had here. But he didn't instigate the move for him. That was already underway. It's all detailed by Leeds football expert Phil Hay in the Athletic.

[norfolkngood 1,174]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Why are you making things up?

Farke got the final say on Ampadu, like he always had here. But he didn't instigate the move for him. That was already underway. It's all detailed by Leeds football expert Phil Hay in the Athletic.

i do not know thats why i am asking ? do you think Farke had the final say here ? 

[Branston Pickle 4,144]

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Why are you making things up?

Farke got the final say on Ampadu, like he always had here. But he didn't instigate the move for him. That was already underway. It's all detailed by Leeds football expert Phil Hay in the Athletic.

Just leave them to it, living in a world where absolutely nothing was bad under Farke. It was all fantasyland stuff - other than the stuff that wasn’t, which was obviously down to someone else.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Branston Pickle

[Branston Pickle 4,144]

2 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

i do not know thats why i am asking ? do you think Farke had the final say here ? 

Odd. Why do you say ‘this is why I was asking’ when it was LDC, and you’ve not posted on this thread?  Smacks of multiple user id to me.

[hogesar 10,753]

3 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

i do not know thats why i am asking ? do you think Farke had the final say here ? 

Webber has said Farke had final say on multiple times, and Farke said it himself after our first relegation.

[Google Bot 3,923]

Think it's more about the people employed in either role, than the actual title.  It's not as simple as one person having ultimate say in any of these scenarios, the club works as a unit regardless.

I think the biggest difference it makes is the balance on bringing through youngsters and priorities on spending in different positions.

i.e. What would Farke's final summer window looked like if Farke was driving it?  Would he have prioritised a replacement for Skipp and ignored signings 'for the future' such as Tzolis  etc.?

Even as a manager with more power, He'd still have been unable break wage structure easily you'd have thought?  So the same financial restraints would have applied, which was probably Webber's biggest obstacle too.

[hogesar 10,753]

3 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Just leave them to it, living in a world where absolutely nothing was bad under Farke. It was all fantasyland stuff - other than the stuff that wasn’t, which was obviously down to someone else.

Farke was great for us in the Championship and I personally didn't want him sacked when he was, I don't see why posters need to make things up to make out the guy was some sort of faultless god. 

One of my favourite managers but even the likes of Sir Alex have faults.

[norfolkngood 1,174]

5 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Odd. Why do you say ‘this is why I was asking’ when it was LDC, and you’ve not posted on this thread?  Smacks of multiple user id to me.

My Reply was to Hog Not Ldc 

Read it again 

Why are you making things up?

Farke got the final say on Ampadu, like he always had here. But he didn't instigate the move for him. That was already underway. It's all detailed by Leeds football expert Phil Hay in the Athletic.

i do not know thats why i am asking ? do you think Farke had the final say here ? 

I was replying to Hog i am asking because i do not know the answer was Farke the person with the final say ?.

i am 50 years old i do not make up ID's etc 

 

[norfolkngood 1,174]

8 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Webber has said Farke had final say on multiple times, and Farke said it himself after our first relegation.

Thankyou Hog for clearing that up for me , that's why i asked as i did not know who had the final say 

[Branston Pickle 4,144]

1 minute ago, norfolkngood said:

My Reply was to Hog Not Ldc 

Read it again 

Why are you making things up?

Farke got the final say on Ampadu, like he always had here. But he didn't instigate the move for him. That was already underway. It's all detailed by Leeds football expert Phil Hay in the Athletic.

i do not know thats why i am asking ? do you think Farke had the final say here ? 

I was replying to Hog i am asking because i do not know the answer was Farke the person with the final say ?.

i am 50 years old i do not make up ID's etc 

 

I read it very clearly, thanks.

I couldn’t care less if people have multiple id’s, it seems a strange thing to do.  But saying that you have asked a question in a thread you’ve not posted on is also strange.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Branston Pickle

[norfolkngood 1,174]

Just now, Branston Pickle said:

I read it very clearly, thanks.

well maybe i didn't put it clearly enough ,

i can assure you i was asking a genuine question , maybe not as bright as some on here and can not type as well ,

but it was 100 % genuine 

[hogesar 10,753]

6 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

Thankyou Hog for clearing that up for me , that's why i asked as i did not know who had the final say 

Obviously we're taking that at face value, and we don't know if it changed after that season - maybe Webber took more control and suggested AND had final say afterwards? I doubt if Farke would have stayed under those constraints though, whilst his stock was high.

[Branston Pickle 4,144]

2 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

well maybe i didn't put it clearly enough ,

i can assure you i was asking a genuine question , maybe not as bright as some on here and can not type as well ,

but it was 100 % genuine 

Fair enough - doesn’t seem to be your ‘style’ (whatever that means) to have multiple ids!

In terms of Farke/transfers, it was something that was never totally clear - some said it was all Webber, some said all Farke with Webber doing the negotiations.  I think they suggested it was a colllaboration, mostly Farke identifying players and Webber just trying to get them.

[norfolkngood 1,174]

Just now, Branston Pickle said:

Fair enough - doesn’t seem to be your ‘style’ (whatever that means) to have multiple ids!

In terms of Farke/transfers, it was something that was never totally clear - some said it was all Webber, some said all Farke with Webber doing the negotiations.  I think they suggested it was a colllaboration, mostly Farke identifying players and Webber just trying to get them.

That is what i thought ,

I thought head of recruitment / Webber /Farke discussed who etc  then Webbers job was to find out fees wages / agents etc 

i imagine Farke maybe not so much involved with signing the younger youth players ? 

so who Identified which player is pretty hard to Nail down could of been any of them .

[norfolkngood 1,174]

8 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Obviously we're taking that at face value, and we don't know if it changed after that season - maybe Webber took more control and suggested AND had final say afterwards? I doubt if Farke would have stayed under those constraints though, whilst his stock was high.

i Get what you are saying ,

i think there was some sort of Shift that season ,

i do not know if who why or what ,

i can not remember exactly what was said at the time ,i think when Kieran scott left Webber maybe took more control ? 

[lake district canary 4,816]

53 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Why are you making things up?

Farke got the final say on Ampadu, like he always had here. But he didn't instigate the move for him. That was already underway. It's all detailed by Leeds football expert Phil Hay in the Athletic.

I'm not subscribed to the Athletic, so perhaps you could tell me what Hay said, but I've seen it written that Farke was involved in transfer discussions for Leeds two weeks before his position was signed and sealed which was always a done deal but delayed due to the Leeds takeover situation. He was manager in all but name way before the actual signing. The Ampadu transfer was all intents and purposes because he was top of Farke's list.

[shefcanary 2,950]

I hope for Farke's sake Ampadu has learnt that the game is not just about good touch and passing, especially as a defender, but also working hard and tackling fair. He was **** at Sheffield United. Anyway, its dirty Leeds, for a discussion about the set up here, the thread about the Cullen rumour takes this discussion further forward - Cullen as SD or CEO? I think the latter but who knows?

[ncfcstar 342]

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

With Webber leaving, are we happy to have a new Sporting Director with a head coach, or do we want to revert to the CEO/manager set up? Arguments for both, but with Webber/Farke - it seemed to work, at least to start with.....an interesting sideline though is that Farke insisted at Leeds that his role is as manager, not a head coach. That suggests to me that he felt he didn't have enough control over things in his time with us.

The Sporting Director role is a big role at a club, but the distinctions between a CEO and an SD don't seem to be that different to me, so what is best, CEO or SD?  Maybe Farke would have been better in the PL if he'd been a manager and had more control over transfers, as he has now in his new job......

This isn't even a debate for me, you can easily separate the commercial running of the club i.e. CEO role from the footballing side of the club i.e. Sporting Director.  This is how it should be, it's just that in England we have some weird obsession with everyone in football being involved in all the decisions.  CEO's should be overseeing the operation and budgeting of the club, and leaving the footballing decisions to a Sporting Director, their team, and the Head Coach.

[ZLF 334]

I thought here farke chose skipp as he was positive about the loan while ampadu was uncommitted.   

 

I think generally the role of SD at clubs is diminishing, but i thi k it remains a healthu division of time. under webber the proposals came from sd and the scouting team while coach (whether farke s n ith or wagner) said yay or nay, for the sd to negotiate the contract.

[Fen Canary 1,456]

52 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

That is what i thought ,

I thought head of recruitment / Webber /Farke discussed who etc  then Webbers job was to find out fees wages / agents etc 

i imagine Farke maybe not so much involved with signing the younger youth players ? 

so who Identified which player is pretty hard to Nail down could of been any of them .

I’d say it’s a similar setup to how it’s always been, albeit with different job titles. The manager sits down with the CEO/Sporting Director and they discuss which positions need strengthening.

The scouts then identify players who may fit the bill. The manager picks his preferred options, the CEO/Sporting Director scratches out any that aren’t within the budget. Between them they whittle down the list to the ones they believe will improve the team while keeping within the finances allowed. Of course this means the manager might not get his first choices, but that’s vastly different to claiming players have been signed against his wishes.

The Sporting Director may also have one eye on signing youngsters for the future, something that may have in the past fallen solely to the manager if you had a CEO but it’s always between a collaboration between various parties 

[lake district canary 4,816]

Does any club have a CEO an SD and a head coach? Is that the most desired combination?  Is a CEO really necessary?

[Google Bot 3,923]

8 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Does any club have a CEO an SD and a head coach?

I thought that was pretty standard, and we were the oddballs who allowed Webber ultimate power?

[All the Germans 1,234]

9 hours ago, hogesar said:

Farke was great for us in the Championship and I personally didn't want him sacked when he was, I don't see why posters need to make things up to make out the guy was some sort of faultless god. 

One of my favourite managers but even the likes of Sir Alex have faults.

Entirely this. I am a fully signed up Farke lover - and always have been - but he definitely had faults. This entire thread seems to just be a statement that Farke was amazing (I strongly agree) and would have won us the Premier League by Christmas if he had full control (I disagree).

 

[hogesar 10,753]

6 hours ago, Google Bot said:

I thought that was pretty standard, and we were the oddballs who allowed Webber ultimate power?

I think most clubs with the Sporting Director role don't have a typical CEO as well. Or at least that was generally the case in Germany who were obviously ahead of us on that model at the time we got Webber.

[Google Bot 3,923]

7 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I think most clubs with the Sporting Director role don't have a typical CEO as well. Or at least that was generally the case in Germany who were obviously ahead of us on that model at the time we got Webber.

You sure? As I thought it was standard to have a CEO/Chairman type that sits between SD and board.

Otherwise you end up with the situation we have here, where SD is wearing all the hats and has you by the balls, even doing their own PR. 

Just searched and infact Bayern booted out both, so they operate CEO/SD:

https://www.bundesliga.com/en/bundesliga/news/bayern-munich-sack-ceo-oliver-kahn-sporting-director-hasan-salihamidzic-23620

Before that they had Rumminege as CEO above the SP.

A sporting directory is just splitting the lower roles, and can't see why it should invalidate an exec that sits between them and board who is public facing?

Edited July 20, 2023 by Google Bot

[FenwayFrank 2,712]

9 hours ago, hogesar said:

Webber has said Farke had final say on multiple times, and Farke said it himself after our first relegation.

That can't be true, everything is Webber's fault 😉

[lake district canary 4,816]

9 hours ago, hogesar said:

Farke was great for us in the Championship and I personally didn't want him sacked when he was, I don't see why posters need to make things up to make out the guy was some sort of faultless god. 

One of my favourite managers but even the likes of Sir Alex have faults.

I presume that is aimed at me, but you haven't said anything to suggest I am wrong in anything I have said. You might think you have, but you really haven't.  The inflection I made about Farke was that he has insisted on being called the manager as opposed to head coach, which would give him more control over certain things - including transfers - and he was unbdoubtedly talking behind the scenes way before the physical signing of his contract took place - including discussions as who he would like, including the acquisitition of Ampadu, whom he had wanted while at Norwich.  I didn't say Farke had complete control over transfers - which is what you decided is what I said - when I clearly didn't. If anything it is you who are making things up.

Also, nobody thinks Farke was perfect while with us or since - and actually I don't see anyone on this thread making out Farke was some sort of "faultless god"  - but he was a d*mn good fit for our club. The fact is he now has more resources - and as manager, more control over the situation at Leeds than he had as head coach at Norwich - including transfers.