Worthington, Ishe a victim of the low level of debate on these boards

[beelsie 0]

Worthington, is he a victim of a low level of debate on these boards?

The remarks seen in print, are against, seem school boyish, sneer ridden, almost at the same frustration level of some of his ill chosen media interviews. He like the fans was frustrated at the lack of effort that was put in by the teams of his choice, that they did not perform to his simple instructions, and as he put it, they just did not turn up.

This has been the case for at least the last two seasons sometimes until the latter parts of the second half, occasionally not even that.  I was one of the guilty ones in my criticism of his "I don’t care what the fans say" remark. Although being a Worthy supporter; mistakes and all. I even went as far as adding my two-penny worth, as to what his remarks might have been. Hindsight is a wonderful fuel for criticism.

Yes! Worthy has made some awful bloomers in his time here, also, he has had his successes.

Have the out brigade really thought through their replacements for Worthy?

Have they considered the implications of their removal of him and the effect this removal might have on the aspiring candidate for his post?

Especially, that we, as a team might finish in a respectable top third of the table position. Not what we as fans wanted, I agree, but many teams will finish below us, but with no threat to their managers.

The prospective new team in the management seat, will look with apprehension upon the demands that will be placed on their heads by fans who will only be satisfied with unrealistic Chelsea like performances and expected to be Prem position winners in the first season.

They will be coupled and compared unjustly, by the Worther-Outer fans, with Liverpool, Man United, Arsenal and three of the big boys in the Premiership.

They will look at the fan base of 25000 (chickenfeed in comparison to those mentioned) and already loosing more than three million a year on wages alone.

Will they, with eyes wide open, wonder where they will generate and house the gates, (at least (40000) is necessary), to supply enough cash to support and maintain the four or five £30.000 per week + player replacements plus the 5/6 back-ups needed to furnish the competition needed to keep the players on their toes. Then to compete for a respectable position in the prem. Under this premise is it likely that there will be many management takers at this level that we can afford? Along with the massive guarantee of compensation that will be demanded if there is dismissal of the unsuccessful staff. The new staff will require security if the fans demand success. For our club to become self-supporting in terms of catchment area and income, assuming that there is no Abramovich looming in the background is unrealistic.

The likely-hood that Delia and co-will be disolusioned is likely, having had to deal quietly with the criticism of their loyalty to staff of their choosing, by the so called majority fan base.

Perhaps they will happily acceed to Ist Whiz’ request and put their stock up for sale, risking a devaluation, and taking their accrued assets into the sun and enjoy a happy retirement watching the cream of Europe and the Meditteranian playing football. Without the constant bitching they have endured to date.  In the sun.  A possibility you might agree!

As regards Worthy’s so called bad treatment of the players, there have been in my opinion, few candidates in or out of the team who have come up to expectations, especially work and effort-wise. Mc Veigh for one has just signed for another year, and though being, according to the irate fans, badly treated. He is one of the longest serving players on the clubs books and knows Worthy as well as any one, yet sees his future for the next twelve months, at least tolerable. Obviously he has not found Worthy unreasonable. After all, he, unlike the know-all complaining, Worthy-outers is on the receiving end. Also the players have said to the media many times, WE HAVE NOT PERFORMED AS WELL AS WE CAN AND HOLD OUR HANDS UP !!! They have not said that they have played the way they are coached, precisely the opposite, in fact. Likewise they are on the pitch when we as fans and Worthy, have witnessed these abysmal displays, do we not believe that they had, while on the pitch the chance to do something about it, like win the ball and keep it for starters, then, as a bonus pass it. I have blamed coaching staff etc for poor displays but I still say the solution rests with the players.

Though I have not been an ardent Worthy outer, I have been an advocate for a complete change of the whole set up at Carrow Road starting with it’s sale and the prospects of a new venue in the Lakenham area and ambitious provision of fascilities to be used and available to the general public for twentyfour hours a day. One can but dream. OTBC!!!!!

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

I certainly have entered into low level bickering at times BUT see a real problem with the management.. 

1) How can such negative management as Worthy''s actually work?

2) Tactically he really hasnt got much idea, both in formations and style of play.  It doesnt even seem as if he watches future opponents.

3) Buying players recently, and with more money than nearly all the other managers in this division he has failed miserably. He has even failed to pick up players in positions that are so desperatly in need.

4) His man management looks awful

5) free kicks, both defending and attacking have been dire since Malky and Mulryne left the club

6) his record with youth is diabolical

All in all it just looks as if the management has become stale, poor and even more damning SLOPPY and LAZY.  He talks of hard work, I don''t see any signs that he is earning his position any more than some of our players are earning theirs.  I see nothing new being tried to sort out the problems at carrow Road. 

 In essense how well has Hucks done since his PUBLIC LAMBASTING??  He has been poor.  And thats man-management is it?

[beelsie 0]

With respect to your man management bit, I do''nt think we are able to know what this is like as we are not privy to what goes on between him and the players. There do''nt seem to be too many putting in for transfers.  Free kicks etc are the skills that the players have whether coached by Worthy or Terry Venables.  I am very old by most standards but I am sure that without boasting and no coaching I could drop/place a ball within three feet of a target eight times out of ten now.  It''s a skill most players have/ or at least should have almost as seconed nature. It''s why people consider the occupation of footballer in preference to work.

As regards tackling and defending I never saw Mulryne win a ball in his life, let alone attack, unless there was a space of at least ten yards between him and an opposition player.   He has never been the same from the leg incident break that he was unfortunate to suffer. Winning the ball from an opponent is the job that given the inner skill and determination a defender has to get close enough to the player to intercept, something our players do not do when on the pitch.  These are characteristics that are inherrant in a person who calls himself a defender in other words they are in his make up.  How do you explain the media claims that these aquisitions of Worthy''s merited a t least a play off position before the season started.  How is an body to know what  he instructs his players to do in training. I am certain from watching him play that the was a very efficient and capable player himself.  And I would. as far as can be aware be sure that he will demand the same amount of application from his players.  You and I can only know what is seen on the pitch.  He has not forgotten how to defend or what tactics to employ. He is limited in what he can do to players as retribution when they do not perform as instructed.  What he said to Huckerby publicly was in my opinion mild after all Huchs is hardly a girl. Is he.  What I would have said to him personally would have been to get his finger out a bit more and do his share of defending.  Whether he would have responded or not would have been up to him.  An if he did not respond I would have put him on the transfer list. That''s  what I consider to be man management, asking a man to do what he is capable of doing all the time.  I believe you''re assessment of his youth policy is overdramatic and lacks in depth knowledge his reasons for his decisions regarding the youth City employs.  I do not see many of them refusing a City contract, thus I would assume that too much cannot be wrong with his treatment of them or they again would seek pastures new. To me, what you accuse the management of is what I would counter accuse the players of.  I repeat, the players have it within their ability at all times when on the pitch just as Mc Veigh did but do not produce the goods.  Perhaps Willy has come to his senses now , lets hope the others do likewise.  You can only have one Captain of a ship, eleven  players charting their own courses is a recipe for disaster, which is were at.  Worthy''s simple instructions as I understand it for success in the championship is hard work, win it, pass the ball as you know you can ,and score more than the opposition.  After rigourous training that is all thats required for success in this league.

[Rossi 0]

beelsie,

a few points

1)"Have the out brigade really thought through their replacements for Worthy?"

I was not aware that there was a compiled list of interested bodies. I think that Norwich would have a lot of CV''s. Firstly, we may not be one of the big boys but we are in this division. No other club in this league can boast about sheer numbers like Norwich can. The stadium is in good nick and doesnt need player funds transferred into stadium budgets. Delia & Michael have shown that they are no hire em and fire em merchants like at other clubs (doug ellis springs to mind, so too Freddie Shepherd) There is money to spend, plus all debts are manageable. I''m not putting Mike Newell forward, but all his gripes at Luton are about lack of finances, small crowds etc, he for sure would be interested. Everyone must be aware that whilst suggestions that come forward centre around either local managers or ex-city players there are going to be candidates that we would never have heard of, or ones that dont immediately spring to mind.

2"Have they considered the implications of their removal of him and the effect this removal might have on the aspiring candidate for his post?"

Correct me if I am wrong, but in order for someone to apply for a post, first that post must be vacated. It''s the way that it works, and there can be no negative thoughts from candidates when nigel is removed. They will see it as an opportunity.

3) "The prospective new team in the management seat, will look with apprehension upon the demands that will be placed on their heads by fans who will only be satisfied with unrealistic Chelsea like performances and expected to be Prem position winners in the first season."

Total and utter garbage - i like many understand that it''s about starting all over again with a new year plan.

4) "Will they, with eyes wide open, wonder where they will generate and house the gates, (at least (40000) is necessary), to supply enough cash to support and maintain the four or five £30.000 per week + player replacements plus the 5/6 back-ups needed to furnish the competition needed to keep the players on their toes."

How many Prem clubs can boast those attendance figures? There are seven that average over 40,000 this season, Chelsea, Newcastle, Everton, Man City, Aston Villa, ManUSA, Liverpool

5) "The likely-hood that Delia and co-will be disolusioned is likely, having had to deal quietly with the criticism of their loyalty to staff of their choosing, by the so called majority fan base."

Doncaster has conceded the majority want worthy out, the board have to be disillusioned - their business plan didnt include being where we are playing the way we are

6) "As regards Worthy’s so called bad treatment of the players, there have been in my opinion, few candidates in or out of the team who have come up to expectations, especially work and effort-wise."

Wonder why that is, he spots them, he buys them, he trains them and picks them, he tells them how to play. (To be fair it isnt just him - the whole backroom staff) Incidentally who recruits and picks them?

[ZLF 271]

Beelsie - I am not sure that there is only a low level of debate; some decent stuff can be found but it is much more difficult to find that it was before due to the amount of chaff.  

However I sense a feeling that it is the''worthy out'' brigade who you blame for the low level - to me it is clear that there are antagonists on both sides of the fence who prefer to name call and provide one line put downs rather than try to address those issues.  All are equally unpleasant.    

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

I understand a lot of where you are coming from beelsie, as far as corners go, I have to disagree...  we let in a goal by Cort against Hull at home, we did it again away?  whats that 4 months down the line and nothing has changed?? 

As for mulryne I only mentioned him because he scored our last free kick however long ago that was.  Surely one of our players must stand out in training as being able to take one? we certainly concede enough of them. and if none do, whjy hasnt worthy signed one... or a right winger at that.

As for defending more from hucks, well at least he doesnt ever get too close to the penalty area otherwise he would give away a penalty every time...  and what we here in public doesnt compare to the berating that goes on behind closed doors...  i bet andy inept hughes never gets moaned at.

you say Worthys instructiond include ''pass the ball'' .  I hate to say it but earlier in the season there was very little passing the ball going on, even now it isnt happening much hence why erny has looked so anonymous.  I really beleive it is a PLAIN LIE that worthy advocates this style of play as his first choice, whilst Ashton was here we hoofed it up to him all season, patently ordered from the bench otherwise why were they not on their feat ordering the ball to be passed.

Is it any wonder our players can''t pass the ball now when the hevent been doing it all season??

This is his team and he takes responsibility for them.  The buck stops with worthy at every level on the playing side of the club, he is responsible for our unbalanced underacheiving squad filled with players we have paid well over the odds for whom arent good enough.

As for youth well we had the worst midfield crisis i can remember and rossi jarvis didnt get a game jim brennan a left back did, we got tonked a few times....  then some midfielders got injured so simon charlton got a role this time and we got tonked again..  does hew learn, does he f****. finally everyone is fit and we win a couple then we get tonked again just like we got tonked at the start of the season and at every other time except december where if leicester had had a striker worthy of note we would have got tonked too. lets just hope we don''t get tonked again on saturday

 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

    Well you talk about a low level of debate Beelsie and then get several things totally wrong. Mcveigh has not "signed" a new contract, the club have excercised a previously agreed 1 year extension-ie. as Mcveigh agreed to it when the contract was drawn up he has no say in the matter.

   Your point about 40,000 crowds-as has already been pointed out only 7 clubs can manage this in the Prem. and there are several clubs (Bolton,Blackburn,Charlton,Middlesbrough) who have done pretty well despite frequently being unable to sell out grounds of a similar size to ours. The old chestnut about catchment area is often brought up by people who assume that a largely rural area must by definition have a tiny population. Do you actually know how many people live in City`s main catchment area of Norfolk and North Suffolk (although thousands come from further afield)? You may be very suprised. Judging by recent levels of demand i believe City could comfortably average well over 30,000 in the Prem. which would put us in the top 10 in the country in terms of support. But we`re still "little Norwich" arent we?!

[beelsie 0]

Mr Carrow. The reason I mentioned the 40000 crowd figure.  Was, if you read my piece, the number of paying supporters needed to guarantee the level of income required to buy the players needed to allow us to attract the quality of footballer able to give N. City a chance to compete in the Prem and pay those inflated wages that I mentioned.   Having no big money backer, this would also allow us to keep solvent.   We can''t pay the wage bill now and show a profit.   Look at Birmingham for one team a £42,000,0000 side and struggling.  You''re assessment of the number of teams in the prem who are able to boast 30,000+ is correct, but we cannot house that number at carrow road and again would have to have the stands altered to take the extra numbers that you speak of.   If they were asking McVeigh for his signature, it is obvious to me that it was needed, to give credence to the original document.  To say that he had no say in the matter is not true, because if a signature from him was not necessary then there would nothing to go to the press for in the first place.  The teams that you mention who have done pretty well are teams who have in the back ground wealthy subscribers ready to chip in with necessary funds.  As for Norwich City being Little Norwich, financially, it is, that''s reality and the sooner we realise it the better.  While the present debts, are as you say, manageable; with the sort of investments I feel are necessary to achieve the goals of the Worthy Outers, the debts incurred would soon put us in a precarious financial state.  Look at Leeds. Also, I am well aware of the Population numbers in our rural area of norfolk.  It stands at about 794,000 man woman and child, I''m not sure of the percentage of those that are football fans, probably,  at a guess 0.1%.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="beelsie"]Mr Carrow. The reason I mentioned the 40000 crowd figure.  Was, if you read my piece, the number of paying supporters needed to guarantee the level of income required to buy the players needed to allow us to attract the quality of footballer able to give N. City a chance to compete in the Prem and pay those inflated wages that I mentioned.   Having no big money backer, this would also allow us to keep solvent.   We can''t pay the wage bill now and show a profit.   Look at Birmingham for one team a £42,000,0000 side and struggling.  You''re assessment of the number of teams in the prem who are able to boast 30,000+ is correct, but we cannot house that number at carrow road and again would have to have the stands altered to take the extra numbers that you speak of.   If they were asking McVeigh for his signature, it is obvious to me that it was needed, to give credence to the original document.  To say that he had no say in the matter is not true, because if a signature from him was not necessary then there would nothing to go to the press for in the first place.  The teams that you mention who have done pretty well are teams who have in the back ground wealthy subscribers ready to chip in with necessary funds.  As for Norwich City being Little Norwich, financially, it is, that''s reality and the sooner we realise it the better.  While the present debts, are as you say, manageable; with the sort of investments I feel are necessary to achieve the goals of the Worthy Outers, the debts incurred would soon put us in a precarious financial state.  Look at Leeds. Also, I am well aware of the Population numbers in our rural area of norfolk.  It stands at about 794,000 man woman and child, I''m not sure of the percentage of those that are football fans, probably,  at a guess 0.1%.[/quote]

   Beelsie, Mcveigh has NOT recently signed ANYTHING. The club have exercised an option to extend his contract by a year-the players signed consent was given at the start of the contract. Please see the article on the homepage, it says nothing about a signature. They went to the press with the news to placate fans who were worried that the club would not take up the option.

   Bolton and Charlton DO NOT have wealthy backers. Neither now do Blackburn, i concede however that they are probably still living off the Jack Walker legacy. It is worth bearing in mind that here are plenty of clubs out there who would regard NCFC as having wealthy backers in Delia and MWJ.

   Yes i am looking at Leeds. Last time i looked they still had far worse financial problems than us, yet had managed to spend significant amounts on their team with smaller crowds, no 6million parachute payment and a fraction of our 10million incoming transfer money. They currently have a very realistic chance of promotion. Its called ambition. You say we cant pay the wage bill and show a profit, yet the last accounts showed tha small matter of a 7million profit which was described as an "accounting quirk" by the club. I have yet to meet anyone who can explain to me how a 7million profit isn`t actually a 7million profit!

   The population of Norfolk is currently around 840,000 (and is one of the fastest growing in the country),if you include North Suffolk which is largely Yellow and Green the figure rises to well over 1 million (with no real competion from other clubs). A recent newspaper article i read stated that 20% of Brits regard themselves as football fans. I think you may be thinking of rugby with your 0.1% figure. The club sold 53,000 of the last home shirt and have a higher figure on its "customer" database. The idea that NCFC can regularly achieve crowds well in excess of 30,000,putting it in the top 10 in the country, is now unquestionable to anyone aware of the facts. How to get into that position is of course a more difficult topic.

[beelsie 0]

The fact that you say 20% of Brits are football fans; this may well be right with a population of over50million. The percentage of those that actually attend are more in line with my figures, hardly the ten million that you speak of, if you use the figures that are shown as attendance figures on the results pages on Sunday.   The trouble is that there has been a huge fall in fan based support throughout the country for years, most would be supporters,can''t afford the gate prices let alone additional cost''s that a fan can be tempted to subscribe to at the club.  I would say that in King''s Lynn area there are about two,maybe three thousand  NCFC verbal supporters,  the actual number going from here through the turnstyles are very few, two bus loades at most.  The shirts purchased are those bought by badgered parents for their sons at Christmas.  You will see more of them being worn at school or in the streets than are probably worn on match day at the city ground.

The 7 million that you talk of is not gate profits, real estate sales, and profit from catering etc and the parachute payment make up the bulk and will not be there next season. In reply you mention the 30000+ that we could achieve at City, both you and I know that without considerable extra investment in real estate to house them it is a no-no.  There is also the debt currently running at I believe the last figures were over 18million.  I wonder what would happen if the capital were called in against us.  You and I know that the lender has drawn up an agreement and it will be worded so that if and when the debt has to be called in the lender holds all the aces, ask Leeds again.  Or on seconed thoughts we could do an Ipswich and go bankrupt. 

[beelsie 0]

Rossi! I like the post but you and I will have to disagree on one or two points.

1:  The fact that you for one have considered the alternatives, is good and it makes a change from what I termed as the cheapy sneery type post that we often endure on here. I also was not aware of a completed list of candidates for the post of NCFC manager.  My point was that in view of our present position in the league and a remote chance of the play offs ( unrealistic I know), and disregarding the type of football we are playing.  It to me seems likely that managers who are may apply are more than likely to be ambitious and from the same or lower divisions.  We must follow that theory up by viewing Norwich from that point of view, will new candidates feel that the supporter expectations are a little over the top, will those same supporters expect prem performances and promotion in one maybe two years, and if no success will the Newby be subject to the same demands as he now witnesses.  Will he think, in view of what has been spent in squad additions and the small squad that now exists at NCFC, is there enough left in the coffers and is it available to purchase the quantity and type of players he will deem necessary to build the successful challenge, can he have the resources necessary to sustain that challenge up to and into the prem, pay the wages that those players will demand.  Above all he will wonder if the ground capacity is enough to house the numbers available and necessary to fund the ambitious fans that we have.  Those  points in my opinion are the questions that need to be answered by the fans and most important the board,  I move the goal posts even further when I consider that this board are aware that the situation we are in is seen as a challenge by the present manager who is positive in his belief that he can come out of this and with some degree of pride.  The newby will have to be able to win over this board very convincingly because the class of football produced by our present group of players over the last two seasons at least, has not met the challenges posed  by any of the opposition in almost all departments.   

You mention seven clubs with the income available to maintain a respectable place in the prem and I believe that it is realistic to believe that to challenge the best or wealthiest you have to be on a similar financial footing.  The players in those teams are receiving huge wages£80000 +.   Unfortunately we are at present, financial minnows by comparison.

As regards the efforts on the field of play and the teams lack football nous, as you say Worthy is responsible for selection etc.  I have said many times that I am sure Worthy does not ask them to play the way they do.  If I am right he asks them to play the way they can, after all the artizan carpenter does not ask his manager to hold the chisel for him when he is making the joint.OTBC!!! and thanks!!

[beelsie 0]

ZLF,  It was a generalised thought on my mind.

There is as you rightly say a lot of chaff out there in this WO debate, it is unfortunate, but IMHO the field of approach to the issue needs to be widened considerably to do justice to the introduction of new staff etc, and whether or not, NCFC with all due respects is capable of getting the players with skill level and in the numbers necessary to compete for and in the premiership; considering our lack of financial clout.

Just to mention one drawback, in my point of view our stadia needs to increase in size by at least 20% to generate the cash to pay the wages, can we afford that initial outlay, can we fill it, and with what they know from the supporter volatility etc would they the board be prepared to risk the splash.

[shyster 0]

840,000!! [8o|]

That''s an increase in population of over a 140,000 from the 1991 population of  736,700.

The depressing thing about those statistics is the fact that the larger percentage of those increased figures are Chinese, Portugese & East European immigrants.

And you don''t see many of those at Carra Road.

[beelsie 0]

CJF!!  I would not lie, I just repeat what the manager says in his often unfortunate interviews.  He always criticises the players for not passing the ball, not winning it, and not getting in the faces of the opposition.  I can only agree with him on those issues, for it is what I witness on almost every match day for the past two seasons.  I will agree with your opinion that he has young tallent that he does''nt use.  I do not have his reasons for not giving them at least a worthwhile run out.  Personally, I believe if their big enough their old enough. There is a possibility that for Worthy to give the reasons for non inclusion could be a little inflamatory for the persons involved and must be kept between the player and manager.  Tonked!! an expression that i''m not familiar with,  may be i''ll adopt it occasionally if I may.!!! 

I believe(tongue in cheek) that you may have been a union rep at some time or other, for you do seem not to believe that football players can operate at their game in an adult manner, like make decisions, run into open spaces,, move as a unit be ready to receive the ball, keep their shape, defend further up the field and most importantly whether they have a manager or not, play like a team of responsible grown ups.  Have you noticed that there has been introduced a law that allows a player who has been injured by another on the field of play, and he can prove intent, he can claim damages.  Do you think that it should be the case that the managers should be held to blame for the incident and thereby fined accordingly.  Just a thought!OTBC!!!

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="beelsie"]

The fact that you say 20% of Brits are football fans; this may well be right with a population of over50million. The percentage of those that actually attend are more in line with my figures, hardly the ten million that you speak of, if you use the figures that are shown as attendance figures on the results pages on Sunday.   The trouble is that there has been a huge fall in fan based support throughout the country for years, most would be supporters,can''t afford the gate prices let alone additional cost''s that a fan can be tempted to subscribe to at the club.  I would say that in King''s Lynn area there are about two,maybe three thousand  NCFC verbal supporters,  the actual number going from here through the turnstyles are very few, two bus loades at most.  The shirts purchased are those bought by badgered parents for their sons at Christmas.  You will see more of them being worn at school or in the streets than are probably worn on match day at the city ground.

The 7 million that you talk of is not gate profits, real estate sales, and profit from catering etc and the parachute payment make up the bulk and will not be there next season. In reply you mention the 30000+ that we could achieve at City, both you and I know that without considerable extra investment in real estate to house them it is a no-no.  There is also the debt currently running at I believe the last figures were over 18million.  I wonder what would happen if the capital were called in against us.  You and I know that the lender has drawn up an agreement and it will be worded so that if and when the debt has to be called in the lender holds all the aces, ask Leeds again.  Or on seconed thoughts we could do an Ipswich and go bankrupt. 

[/quote]

    So Beelsie, if we accept that City`s catchment figure is roughly 1 million, using your 0.1% figure City should really be attracting crowds of around 1000?! We really are over achieving arent we! I never said 20% of the population go to matches, but to achieve a crowd of 30,000 City need to attract about 2.5% of its catchment population (if you take into account away fans and exiled supporters). If you look into it i think you will find it is a very realistic figure.

   So only 2 busloads attend Carrow Rd from a Norfolk town of about 50,000 people? Well if you believe this i think you must believe that Delia has been cloning Norwich fans because where on earth are they all coming from (despite the dross on the pitch)? The low point for crowds at City and accross the country was the eighties-since then they have been steadily climbing, not falling as you have stated. In the sixties and seventies City regularly used to attract crowds of 30,000 plus with a smaller population and much worse transport links. In my opinion the current demand for tickets is just a case of City`s support getting back to its natural level after the devastation of the Chase years.

   The kids who badger their parents into buying them a home shirt are the same ones who will badger their parents into taking them to their first game-and then the next one if they are lucky enough to see a win! Considering the fact that i and most season-ticket holders i know dont own a shirt the 53,000 figure is astounding.

   Season tickets look to be heading towards selling out again so gate receipts could be higher next season than this (price increases), we WILL have another 6million parachute payment (they last for two seasons) and should we do better than we have in this dreadful season catering and merchandise income could well be higher too. And another land deal is on the cards which a recent article stated "could be worth between 1 and 2 million per acre to the club".

   Oh and Ipswich, despite having an unsecured debt roughly double that of ours have actually spent a higher proportion of their incoming transfer money this season than we have. Its called ambition rather than negative small-mindedness.

  

[Saint Canary 0]

Firstly Beelsie, an excellent post which I have not had the time to reply to until now.

I would just like to pick up on a few of your points:

He like the fans was frustrated at the lack of effort that was put in by the teams of his choice, that they did not perform to his simple instructions, and as he put it, they just did not turn up.
Why is HIS team not performing his simple instructions Beelsie? We are not just talking 11 players here are we, we are pretty much talking the entire squad including loanees we have had. What I want to know is what Worthington is doing to get the players to execute his game plan and more importantly why they stopped in the first place? You also have to beg the question that if Worthy is not telling the team to sit deep why with an almost entirely different squad from the one he inherited has this been happening for five years?

Have the out brigade really thought through their replacements for Worthy?
Nothing in life is certain Beelsie as you well know but if things are clearly broken then someone has to fix and Worthington (at present) is failing to do so. Sacking Worthington may not make things instantly better but we need someone to come in a build a team for promotion to the Premier League and can stay there. I just don''t see this happening and this season looks far from a "transitional" one, we look like we are treading water and that''s what hurts.

Have they considered the implications of their removal of him and the effect this removal might have on the aspiring candidate for his post?
If any manager is put off by seeing another fail before him then I think that gives you an indication that they are not worth employing. Did Ferguson get put off by the way Ron Atkinson was sacked before he joined? I think not.

Especially, that we, as a team might finish in a respectable top third of the table position. Not what we as fans wanted, I agree, but many teams will finish below us, but with no threat to their managers.
Worthington said at the start of year that there could be "no excuses" for not finishing a "minimum" of 6th. That''s why his job is up for debate, he set the target and he is falling short. If he had come out at the start of season and said that he would be looking to stabilise the club, people would not have been happy but at the very least they would have known what to expect.

As regards Worthy’s so called bad treatment of the players, there have been in my opinion, few candidates in or out of the team who have come up to expectations, especially work and effort-wise. Mc Veigh for one has just signed for another year, and though being, according to the irate fans, badly treated.
I would not say that his treatment of players is bad in general but I am going to put up an example of how destroy a players confidence. Adam Drury was two years and further back regarded as the best left-back outside the Premier League but what we have today is a mere shadow of that player. Worthington within the space of two weeks last year removed the captaincy from him then dropped him from the team entirely. I know he was performing poorly at the time but he was playing behind Hux against top quality opposition and basically had to deal with both the opposition right midfielder and right back. Drury is now suffering from a severe lack of confidence, which is pretty much of Worthy''s doing.

Top post though Beelsie.

[beelsie 0]

Got the % wrong didn''t I.  You''re right about the crowds being larger in the 60''s and before I watched in 45 and there well over 30000 gates.  I would say that a much larger proportion in 1945 were actual townies rather than from father afield.   Using my benchmark which is pre 45 to present. you will see that my assessment is correct.  And to consider talk of 30000 attendance is jumping the gun a bit because there is no room at the inn at present.  Assuming that as you state there will be enough in the bank to extend the stand to make accommodation available we will be creeping towards gate solvency and in time the magical position of no debt.  Mind you the solvency level I refer to is on players wages at this present time, if the powers that be decide to invest in classy players with big pockets then we''ve no chance of real solvency in my opinion.  To get that IMHO we will need 40000.

Regarding Ipswich I am proud of the fact that we have never been bankrupt, leaving many small and medium businesses in a financial mess.  If it is small minded to put solvency at the top of my agenda, I would prefer that method of doing business.   To have to have an unsecured debt double ours is nothing to boast about, to me having been in successful business for 40 years it is almost as poor a business strategy as Leeds endured and they were very ambitious, were they not?

The land deal is good news for everyone and whose foresight do we have to thank for the acquisition.

I would also agree with you that shirt sales are way beyond any realistic dreams.

I would also try to put another thought into the equation that may reduce crowd expectations,  but is a consideration for the working man these days.  His pension we are told, depending on age is going to be a drain on his earnings to the tune of 20 - 25% of his earnings if he or she is to have a realistic income in old age.   A mortgage will further deplete his or her prospects of a football supporting future.   Luckily I don''t have any worries on that score, that doesn''t close my eyes to the fact that many will have to bear those concerns. 

The Lynn attendance is only an estimate on my part, made by the fact I find that I don''t pass many buses from my area carrying football fans.  Plus the real reason is that Lynn has it''s own team that is doing quite well and does have crowds of 600 + i am told.  The gate charges are less also.

[Mariner 0]

I hesitate to add to "the low level of debate" by saying what I really think BUT.......25000 crowds are not chickenfeed and talk of comparison with the very largest clubs is not sensible.   The clubs in our target area should be the the Blackburns and Boltons of this world.  To speak of Russian billionaires hardly helps, it is more useful to compare like with like. As for selling up at Carrow Road and moving to the "Lakenham area", what do you have in mind?   Whatever I think of the direction of the playing side of the Club, the stadium has developed very nicely in recent times and its community use, particularly in the educative field, is impressive.  I regard throwing all that has been achieved away and starting the long process of planning, opposition, design disputes, etc. as more akin to a nightmare than a dream.  I admit to being a little prejudiced, I started at Carrow Road standing on railway sleepers.

[beelsie 0]

 Good reply Saint Canary, and may I say that I have not been insulted or wounded even though I have been called into question once or twice, and that in my opinion is what the posting is all about.  Post and pose a few angles on the subject that others may see an answer to, for or against without resorting to name calling or bad manners.

You asked why Worthies simple instructions have not been carried out by the team as a whole.  For the answer I go back to the Sheffield Utd game that we won and as good a contain and hit on the break game with all guns blazing it was, it seemed that for once in two seasons we had a play strategy where every player had suddenly wakened from a sleep or malaise of some sort, they even worked for one another, they made themselves available and moved as a team and kept their shape.  Because of it I felt that Worthy was the same manager and he could be the engineer behind the strategy,  or the boys just got together and said to one another we''el play this game as we wan''t and to hell with the manager.  Whichever of the two options it was I am sure that Worthy was pleased with the result (he said so,I believe it was "more of the same please" ) probably the shortest and simplest instruction a set of professional seasoned players could ever receive.  and it has''nt happened since.  The part about sitting deep as a defensive ploy I cannot personally understand this way at all. and I have constantly criticised this method, if it can be called one many times over the past three years.

Being put of by the failure of a previous manager, is not quite the crux of the matter I would think that Fergusson-Atkinson analogy does not quite compare considering the quality of player that existed at ManU and the reputation and riches that was avalable to the take over man.  My Idea is the position were in and the fans reaction to that.  He will not be aware that it is the football we are producing as a spectacle, and the lack of fighting spirit on display, combined with poor character, rather than the league position, woeful though it is really getting to the fans.

Worthington did indeed say that a top six place is possible and there will be no excuses.  I think that most of us on these boards are bewildered by how far we have fallen short of that target.  Not least Worthy and certainly the knowledgable media pundits, all sorts of strange reasons have been put forward and none make sense to me.   I would point us toward the Sheffield Utd game again.  It had foundation and method and we have not seen that since.  Worthy''s remarks showed that he was full of confidence, you tell me what happened.  He has also said many times on interview," I want them to play and pass as I know they can".  In that remark he still shows confidence in their ability.

 I feel sorry for Drury and I believe that playing behind Huckerby is painful  for anyone and as much as Hucks can be a match winner, as he plays he can also be a match looser.  Wherever Hucks has been there have been similar situations and he in my opinion is a Maverick and cannot be team conditioned.  I for one, would not ever have Hucks in my team, nor would I have purchased him because in my opinion he will create more problems than he solves.   I have just put my tin hat on!!! Thanks for the compliment and your input.

[beelsie 0]

Good points Mariner, Regarding the 25000 being chicken feed it is in relation to the amount of money generated by that number, that IMHO is not enough to produce the money that will secure and pay for the additional staff necessary to meet the aspirations of our fans.  I am also saying that again IMHO that with our extremely good stadium and all that goes with it we are competing with clubs that are far richer than us and we need to up our financial clout to better our chance of top class football.  I wrote about three years ago of my Ideas to sell C,Rud at a big profit and develop our club in the lakenham area with its obvious advantages, size, infrastructure, etc.etc. However as you say, the development at CR is impressive and good work has been done there, I probably stood on the same sleepers as you.  To go back to the crowd situation and my wish to have and house in a quality stadia a crowd of 40000 at CR would put us on a much better competitive level in terms of player, obviously.  Rather than concentrate on getting to the prem now my objective would be to work towards increasing the size of our present stadia, while maintaining a respectable mid table-top six position for say the next three years in this league, see how things go, and then if  the signs are promising decide to make our move toward the prem with finances in place that are enough to at least make the security of a mid table prem position more realistic than they were 2 seasons ago.

[Saint Canary 0]

Thanks for the reply Beelsie, I knew you would be courteous and acknowledge my posting. This has been the best thread on here for a while and you are right not to be insulted or wounded by the responses you have received. Every reply you have prompted has been of a high standard and it''s clear you have made people think about how they respond.

I am not purporting to know that sacking Worthington is 100% the right thing to do but I will say that he appears to not be the man we need right now. He was the right man 5 years ago, he did the dirty jobs that needed doing and he turned us round on a small budget. That is what I see as his level and unfortunately I just think he is not good enough to take us on further now. I have no doubt however that he could go to a club Leicester and do exactly for us what he did at City for them. It''s all the about the being the right man at the correct juncture of time. Much like Churchill was the right man during WWII and Chamberlain wasn''t, it doesn''t mean that Chamberlain was a bad Prime Minister. It merely means that he wasn''t the man to do the job required at that moment.

Lets be honest here Beelsie, I know that (and unlike some others on this board) the grass is not always greener on the other side. There is very little chance we are going to find the perfect manager for Norwich City Football Club but what we need to do in my opinion is find a manager than can take us to the next level.

Ultimately the most telling reason for me that Worthy is not the man to do this is that he seems unable to address the major issues that are causing us problems. He is too set in his ways, he knows that something has worked in the past and he persists in trying to do it the same way even though it isn''t working. The prime example for me is his insistence in playing with wide midfielders when we don''t have any players at the club who play there naturally. I will except the fact that he has not been able to afford/identify the type of player he wants for those roles but he has to adjust his tactics accordingly. The system should be adapted to suit to the players he has at his disposal rather trying to adapt the players to suit the system and his rigid inflexibility on this is why I feel our season has been so hit and miss. You agreed that you felt sorry for Drury playing behind Huckerby and the plain and simple truth is that he is no midfielder, he just doesn''t have the all round game required yet he has occupied that place in the team for a season and half. Then we move across to the right hand side where we have tried to fit so many square pegs in round holes it''s untrue but yet we continue to get more players being brought to the club and played there when it''s not their natural position.

I have advocated playing without wide players since pre-season because it seemed clear to me that we just do not have the players to make a success of playing that way. I know Worthington favours the 4-4-2 but if you don''t have the right personnel you end up with a team that appears disjointed and ultimately you lose games.

To put my frustration into a simple sentence; Worthington seems unable to come up with a formation and a set of tactics which allows our best 11 players to a) be on the pitch at the same time and b) perform to the best of their ability. For that reason alone I feel he should leave, he is simply failing to get the best out of what he has at his disposal.

[Silver Canary 0]

Victim he is a beneficiary! It is the low level of debate that is keeping him in a job! Anybody with any knowledge of football knows that we should have won automatic promotion this year yet the KTFs keep copming up with excuses for him! Worthy out!

[beelsie 0]

Some good points here Saint Canary. I agree with you that Worthy appears to be a one or two trick player, but I must go back to the promotion year when he had Crouch, Hucks and the other player who played wide man can''t think of his name.  Hucks at that period was as comfortable in football as he has ever been. That formation spoke volumes for me and made me think that had Worthy had the backing and purchase money made available at that time by the board and had been allowed to retain those three and three of his team backbone at Norwich instead of, for financial reasons getting rid them we would still have been in the prem, then he was very near to getting the team balance right.  Even with the ever present backing off in defence system.

I have said to my counterpart YC on these boards that I believe that if the board however prudent had given Worthy a bit more of a free reign at that time we would still have the three musketeers here along with the solid back up of Malky slow but solid and reliable and his two reliable partners.   This would have been costly at the time but I think that the investment would have been justified because I think we would have held on to our position in the Prem and we would have seen how well Worthy might have managed the team then.   My only wish is to find a solution to our abysmal lack of consistent and free flowing football whether it is in this league or the prem, and by whatever method necessary. Cheers.

[beelsie 0]

Saint, I have read again your comments, and Iwould say that your observations in one paragraph impresses me more than any other in this discussion, it is this: Worthy has to readjust his tactics accordingly, (main point) so the system deployed is adapted to the players he has at his disposal rather than the revese.

 Nice point, well made.OTBC!!!!

[beelsie 0]

Silver Canary, any relation to saint, by the way?? I would respectfully disagree with your assumption that anybody knows that we should have won automatic promotion back to the prem.  To have that level of expectation would fly blatantly in the face of the statistics as we know them to be.

Another point I would like to make with my limited knowledge on the subject.  It is that we were not ready as a team to be in the Prem at the time we were. The fact that we came down again shows this.  We are still not ready as a club, let alone a team, for the promotion to the Prem that we all crave for. 

I have put forward my reasons for saying this else-ware on these boards and reckon with steady progress on increasing our fan base together the increasing income over the next 3 years( with or without Worthy) we should then be ready to make a realistic challenge.  The reason being that we could financially hold our own against the top twelve in player purchase and  club appeal for the ambitious player.  We have come a long way but we are not yet there. 

[Saint Canary 0]

[quote user="beelsie"]

Silver Canary, any relation to saint, by the way??[/quote]

No relation Beelsie.