Why are so many footballers such idiots?

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,011]

A large percentage of the general population are idiots. There are a few thousand well known professional footballers around the world so by the law of percentages quite a few will be idiots. Then you throw in the fact that because many of them were so obviously talented from a young age and focused on their game instead of their education and that having your ar5e kissed 24/7 and constantly being told how wonderful and special you are regardless of how you act because of your fame, social status and talent and you're going to end up with quite a few idiots.

For me it's not surprising that so many footballers are idiots, it's more surprising to me that so many are actually decent people despite all of that and take time out to help people and do good in their communities. People like Russel Martin or Onel Hernandez just as an example have no incentive to be good people, but they are anyway because it's who they are. You're going to get idiots in every industry, there are probably a percentage of healthcare professionals/soldiers/scientists/whatever else that profession that people tend to look up to and celebrate who aren't decent people and are just in it for the paycheck or because they're good at what they do.

Some people are just idiots or bad people. You'll find them in every walk of life. 

[TheDarkKnight 445]

1 hour ago, kirku said:

For balance, he also played in the 5-1 and 4-1 defeats to Newcastle and Everton.

 

Technically, Gilmour was subbed off against Newcastle when the score was 2-1. And he set up the Brighton goal.

He started on the bench against Everton. He came on and played 12 minutes when Brighton were losing 4-0.

[TheDarkKnight 445]

1 hour ago, kirku said:

DK claimed he'd walk into the England side..

Serious question. Why is that so far fetched?

The common consensus is that he dominated the midfield against England at the Euros, as a 20 year old. With only reserve matches under his belt.

Which lead to Gary Neville freely admitting that England don't have a deep lying playmaker like Gilmour. Vieira agreed and so did Souness.

Chelsea fans love him and would take him back in a heartbeat. Lampard loved him. Rangers fans love him, even though he only played for their youths. Scotland fans love him. Brighton fans love him. Roy Keane got him out of his chair and he said that he looks world class. And he's won the trust of one of the best coaches in the world.

All at 21 years of age.

It's arrogance to say that a few Norwich fans know more than a former England International. Four world class ex midfielders. Four sets of fans and a world class manager.

I wasn't being controversial when I said that he would walk into the England team. He would.

In this current England set-up, the main thing missing is a deep-lying playmaker.

And before anyone chimes in. It's not me who keeps this thing going. Hell, someone brought it up in the England squad announcement thread.

Edited June 1 by TheDarkKnight

[Hairy Canary 552]

9 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

No I didn’t?! Unless you can tell me what Stephen Hendry did that was in some way a scandal? 

An exceptional snooker player by the way, the best of his generation. O’Sullivan is outstanding but took over the baton of Hendry, as did he of Davis. Comparing them is like comparing footballers of different generations at their peak. Impossible to actually determine. It is just as valid to think peak Hendry would beat peak O’Sullivan as the other way around. 

I didn’t understand the need to try and not so subtlety dig at someone, I didn’t get left in charge, I pointed out your baiting. Don’t like it then bothers me none. 

Ok, I guess I misunderstood your post, that’s how it read to me.

Maybe my baiting was out of order and if so I apologise to DK. At least I didn’t stick some F’s into my reply.

Dont worry it doesn’t bother me either.

[canarydan23 3,611]

8 hours ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Serious question. Why is that so far fetched?

The common consensus is that he dominated the midfield against England at the Euros, as a 20 year old. With only reserve matches under his belt.

Which lead to Gary Neville freely admitting that England don't have a deep lying playmaker like Gilmour. Vieira agreed and so did Souness.

Chelsea fans love him and would take him back in a heartbeat. Lampard loved him. Rangers fans love him, even though he only played for their youths. Scotland fans love him. Brighton fans love him. Roy Keane got him out of his chair and he said that he looks world class. And he's won the trust of one of the best coaches in the world.

All at 21 years of age.

It's arrogance to say that a few Norwich fans know more than a former England International. Four world class ex midfielders. Four sets of fans and a world class manager.

I wasn't being controversial when I said that he would walk into the England team. He would.

In this current England set-up, the main thing missing is a deep-lying playmaker.

And before anyone chimes in. It's not me who keeps this thing going. Hell, someone brought it up in the England squad announcement thread.

[kirku 1,316]

15 hours ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Serious question. Why is that so far fetched?

Thanks for proving my point for me 

[kirku 1,316]

16 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

Harry Maguire walks into the England side and he is gash. 

DK based that on the position Gilmour plays and asked for players in the same position to compare against. It wasn’t just a generic statement. It’s academic anyway, we don’t really play with a Gilmour type midfielder. 

Time will tell on the mid tier talent comment I guess. Whatever mid tier means 

So, England don't play with a "Gilmour type midfielder" and yet you're posting in support of the inanity of saying he'd walk into the England side because Harry Maguire does?

Make that make sense.

Edited June 1 by kirku

[SwearyCanary 1,171]

10 hours ago, Hairy Canary said:

Ok, I guess I misunderstood your post, that’s how it read to me.

Maybe my baiting was out of order and if so I apologise to DK. At least I didn’t stick some F’s into my reply.

Dont worry it doesn’t bother me either.

I’m happy to shake on it and let bygones be bygones. Apologies for the F’s. It is my handle tbf! 

[SwearyCanary 1,171]

3 hours ago, kirku said:

So, England don't play with a "Gilmour type midfielder" and yet you're posting in support of the inanity of saying he'd walk into the England side because Harry Maguire does?

Make that make sense.

You’re being pedantic. I’m saying if we played with a system that Gilmour’s been utilised by other managers at club and internationally, he would be very much in the mix (if he was English) as a competitive option in that role, but equally someone that clearly has a future with youth on his side. 

Harry Maguire plays for England purely because Gareth likes him and we are seemingly short in that area according to him. Interesting Utd are literally paying Maguire £10 million to go elsewhere. I use him as an example of there being equivalent players in different positions that walk into the England side even when they’re crud. So laughing at the basic principle that someone wouldn’t walk into the side is flawed, it’s based on what a manager decides. 

 

[TheDarkKnight 445]

3 hours ago, kirku said:

Thanks for proving my point for me 

Yeah. You didn't answer my question.

Effectively, you're saying that you know better than 4 sets of fans (millions of football fans) and a world class coach and manager.

OK. Good luck with that.

I'm sure Gilmour will wave to you when he's strutting his stuff in Europe.

[TheDarkKnight 445]

3 hours ago, kirku said:

So, England don't play with a "Gilmour type midfielder" and yet you're posting in support of the inanity of saying he'd walk into the England side because Harry Maguire does?

Make that make sense.

Don't you think that if Gareth Southgate had a deep-lying playmaker he wouldn't utilise it? Of course he would.

Gary Neville said after the European Championships match that "England don't have a player like Gilmour" (Translation: I wish England had a player like Gilmour")

SwearyCanary's point about Maguire is a salient one. England's defence is weak, if it wasn't, Maguire wouldn't be a guaranteed starter.

Same with the midfield. Take out Rice and Bellingham, who exactly do England have?

The people mocking me and derided me for my insistence that Gilmour could walk into the England are free to continue. I'm guessing that those people aren't for changing, no matter who Gilmour goes on to play for and how good he becomes.

Hell, I'm sure there are some England fans would think Shaw is better than Robertson.

It's not a football issue with some people. I'll leave it at that.

[Mengo 757]

36 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Yeah. You didn't answer my question.

Effectively, you're saying that you know better than 4 sets of fans (millions of football fans) and a world class coach and manager.

OK. Good luck with that.

I'm sure Gilmour will wave to you when he's strutting his stuff in Europe.

I'm sure he already has a man of the match award in champions league. If I remember  it was against the Russian side Farke joined Krasnodar.

[kirku 1,316]

43 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Yeah. You didn't answer my question.

Effectively, you're saying that you know better than 4 sets of fans (millions of football fans) and a world class coach and manager.

OK. Good luck with that.

I'm sure Gilmour will wave to you when he's strutting his stuff in Europe.

Millions of football fans and a "world class coach and manager" don't think that Billy Gilmour would "walk into the England team", you lunatic

[kirku 1,316]

1 hour ago, SwearyCanary said:

So laughing at the basic principle that someone wouldn’t walk into the side is flawed, it’s based on what a manager decides. 

 

"Walk into the side" means that the player is so far ahead of the other options available that they'd be automatically first-choice in all situations.

Is that how you'd categorise a hypothetical English Gilmour?!

[TheDarkKnight 445]

1 hour ago, kirku said:

Millions of football fans and a "world class coach and manager" don't think that Billy Gilmour would "walk into the England team", you lunatic

Who?

[TheDarkKnight 445]

1 hour ago, kirku said:

"Walk into the side" means that the player is so far ahead of the other options available that they'd be automatically first-choice in all situations.

Is that how you'd categorise a hypothetical English Gilmour?!

Let's look at rice. His best attribute is his positioning. Which I admit, is world class. Phillips has energy.

Gilmour is a better passer than both of them, and is far more press resistant.

Neville admitting that he'd walk into the England team. And he would. It's not a controversial opinion. Ask the opinions of Chelsea and Brighton fans. They'd agree with me.

Christ, if Carlton Palmer was still around he'd get probaby into the England squad. lol

Edited June 1 by TheDarkKnight

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,248]

19 hours ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Let's look at rice. His best attribute is his positioning. Which I admit, is world class. Phillips has energy.

Gilmour is a better passer than both of them, and is far more press resistant.

Neville admitting that he'd walk into the England team. And he would. It's not a controversial opinion. Ask the opinions of Chelsea and Brighton fans. They'd agree with me.

Christ, if Carlton Palmer was still around he'd get probaby into the England squad. lol

Let's look at this objectively and imagine Gilmour were English.

Firstly, we must ignore any performances for Scotland, and also Gary Neville's comments because they were made in the studio at the England-Scotland match at Euro 2020 after the game when Neville was working as a pundit. After all, Billy's English now, so he wouldn't have been playing in that match. 

Now, let's study the alternatives. Declan Rice is a key target for Bayern, Arsenal, Liverpool and Man Utd this summer. Jude Bellingham is/was a key target for Real Madrid and Man City. Those two are comfortably ahead of any other English midfielder as well as Gilmour. 

Gilmour would be competing with the likes of Philips, Ward-Prowse, Henderson and Gallagher for the other places in the squad. Henderson is in his twilight years at international level and the others are hardly world beaters, so he'd be in the mix.

But we can only base this on what he's done at club level. Gilmour is English and has not represented Scotland at any level. He impressed at Chelsea in his early performances, but it would've been too soon for a full international call-up. He would've been a regular in the Under-21s since then though, I imagine. 

His loan at Norwich would've been the first real test of his credentials, and let's face it, it was a total failure. This is the reason why so many on this forum will refuse to give Gilmour any praise, no matter what he goes on to do in his career. He was here for a year and despite the national media hyping him up to be our saviour, he was very poor yet nobody outside Norfolk wanted to admit it. It didn't fit their narrative.

But anyway, back to English Billy's international credentials. He has now gone to Brighton and struggled initially, but we now know that the stalker played a part in that. Over the last two or three months he has started to get game time and De Zerbi is quite possibly the perfect coach for Gilmour with their respective styles suiting each other down to the ground and De Zerbi being excellent at developing players. It hasn't all been plain sailing with the odd uncomfortable moment, but generally speaking, he has done well recently. 

This is probably the point where Southgate would be looking at Gilmour seriously and may well have called him up for the post-season internationals. Henderson is getting on, Phillips hasn't played much, Ward-Prowse has been relegated and Gallagher has been a bit-part player in a poor Chelsea team. Gilmour is in form and would be a realistic shout for a call up. 

Any claims that he would've got in the England squad have largely been based on his performance for Scotland at Euro 2020, and had he been English, that would obviously never have happened. Who knows, had Conor Gallagher, Curtis Jones or Oliver Skipp been Scottish, they would probably have several senior caps by now and may have made a similar impression. It could have been: 'Had Curtis Jones been English, he'd walk into the team ahead of Mount and Grealish based on his performances for Scotland.'

But overall, I genuinely cannot see what Gilmour has done in his club career to justify an England call-up before now.

[TheDarkKnight 445]

2 hours ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Let's look at this objectively and imagine Gilmour were English.

Firstly, we must ignore any performances for Scotland, and also Gary Neville's comments because they were made in the studio at the England-Scotland match at Euro 2020 after the game when Neville was working as a pundit. After all, Billy's English now, so he wouldn't have been playing in that match. 

Now, let's study the alternatives. Declan Rice is a key target for Bayern, Arsenal, Liverpool and Man Utd this summer. Jude Bellingham is/was a key target for Real Madrid and Man City. Those two are comfortably ahead of any other English midfielder as well as Gilmour. 

Gilmour would be competing with the likes of Philips, Ward-Prowse, Henderson and Gallagher for the other places in the squad. Henderson is in his twilight years at international level and the others are hardly world beaters, so he'd be in the mix.

But we can only base this on what he's done at club level. Gilmour is English and has not represented Scotland at any level. He impressed at Chelsea in his early performances, but it would've been too soon for a full international call-up. He would've been a regular in the Under-21s since then though, I imagine. 

His loan at Norwich would've been the first real test of his credentials, and let's face it, it was a total failure. This is the reason why so many on this forum will refuse to give Gilmour any praise, no matter what he goes on to do in his career. He was here for a year and despite the national media hyping him up to be our saviour, he was very poor yet nobody outside Norfolk wanted to admit it. It didn't fit their narrative.

But anyway, back to English Billy's international credentials. He has now gone to Brighton and struggled initially, but we now know that the stalker played a part in that. Over the last two or three months he has started to get game time and De Zerbi is quite possibly the perfect coach for Gilmour with their respective styles suiting each other down to the ground and De Zerbi being excellent at developing players. It hasn't all been plain sailing with the odd uncomfortable moment, but generally speaking, he has done well recently. 

This is probably the point where Southgate would be looking at Gilmour seriously and may well have called him up for the post-season internationals. Henderson is getting on, Phillips hasn't played much, Ward-Prowse has been relegated and Gallagher has been a bit-part player in a poor Chelsea team. Gilmour is in form and would be a realistic shout for a call up. 

Any claims that he would've got in the England squad have largely been based on his performance for Scotland at Euro 2020, and had he been English, that would obviously never have happened. Who knows, had Conor Gallagher, Curtis Jones or Oliver Skipp been Scottish, they would probably have several senior caps by now and may have made a similar impression. It could have been: 'Had Curtis Jones been English, he'd walk into the team ahead of Mount and Grealish based on his performances for Scotland.'

But overall, I genuinely cannot see what Gilmour has done in his club career to justify an England call-up before now.

Before I begin, I haven't once had a problem with Norwich fans treating him as they did. If anything, I loved it. It was character building for him. Therfore, I have nothing but respect for Norwich fans. 

In fairness, I would say that I've read far more complimentary comments, in this place, about Gilmour's abilities, than criticisms.  

The general consensus is that he was just the right player at the wrong time, rather than him being a bad player.  Props for being balanced and talking about this in a mature fashion.  

Oh. I've been absolutely objective since day one.

The way that some people are reaching, it's like I said that John Fleck or Kenny McLean would walk into the England squad. 

I think he would have. Regardless if he were playing first team football for Chelsea. Maguire and Phillips are first picks for England and yet they're perennial bench warmers. 

Rice and Bellingham are two entirely different players to Gilmour. Rice is a destroyer. An anchorman, who could very easily be converted as a full time center back. 

Bellingham is a number 10. He's a Gerrard regen. He can't be trusted in the engine room as his natural inclination is to empty the midfield. 

Phillips is Rice, but with less spacial awareness and a lot more energy. As for Ward-Prowse, he's just as good on the ball as Rice and Phillips, but not nearly as intelligent. He wouldn't receive half the acclaim that he receives if he wasn't a dead-ball specialist. 

Henderson? He's emblematic  of the Midfield issues England have. 

Gallagher is a no 10.  That's the thing, though, his loan at Norwich wasn't quite complete failure. I watched every Norwich match two seasons ago and kept my eyes exclusively on Gilmour. He outperformed McLean and Normann, even though they are 8 and 9 years his senior.

Norwich's failings were not down to Gilmour being a failure. It was down to his team mates on being on his level.  I

remember when a 22 year old Roy Keane was relegated with Nottingham Forest. As a younger member of the squad, he was their best midfielder, and that's what ultimately lead to their demise. He was tiers ahead of the likes of McKinnon, Gemmil and Woan and Webb, but in the same way that Gilmour was tiers ahead of McLean, Normann, etc. 

Taking his year with Norwich out of it. After a long and hard fight, he's finally won over De Zerbi (who is looking like a world class manager) and has established himself in the first XI of a top 6 EPL team. 

Taking the aforementioned into account, for some Norwich fans not to rate him stinks of a chip on the shoulders. 

Not even going to mention 4 sets of fans who love him (Chelsea, Scotland, Brighton, Rangers).  Gallagher was actually eligible to play for Scotland. 

This is the crux of the issue. None of the Midfielders that you've mentioned are deep-lying playmaker, in the Modric, Xavi, etc, mould.

Gilmour's skillet Is unique. And that's the point. That's why Gary Neville said what he did. Gilmour will accept the ball, no matter who is on him. He'll come deep to receive the ball. He's a metronome. But as we saw against Newcastle, be can slice a defence with a single stroke.  

Do people think that I just picked this claim out of a hat? I've watched him since he was 12/13. It was evident even then that he's, not just a generational talent, but he's also incredibly unique for a player of these shores. He's Pirloesque.  

Look at Phillips, hes be EPL for only two years (unless you count his season on the bench/physio room at Manchester City and Rice has only known relegation battles.  Hopefully he can further increase his value when we play Norway. It'll pretty much be Gilmour vs Odendaard. 

But yes, in closing, I'll happily double-down on my claim that Billy Gilmour would walk into the current England XI.

Edited June 2 by TheDarkKnight