Is Wagner a good fit?

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

I like Wagner the man, he seems to have integrity, a good attitude and a likeable personality. However I worry his style doesn’t fit our players (or English football) and barring one miracle with Huddersfield - he hasn’t exactly set the world on fire. 

Tactically he worries me- he seems blind to the fact that one striker has worked better than three. He also seems to want players to fit his style rather than a style to fit our players. What if he flops in 6 months and we purchased a load of pressing athletes for a style no other managers use? 

that said look at how Farke turned it around. And we need stability. So - who knows??! Would you stick or twist? 

[hogesar 9,658]

I agree we don't have the players, or enough of them,  who want to play his way. 

If we are going with him then we need probably 5 new first eleven players just to start with.

[BigFish 1,986]

3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I agree we don't have the players, or enough of them,  who want to play his way. 

If we are going with him then we need probably 5 new first eleven players just to start with.

At a rough estimate that is pretty much what we need

[Capt. Pants 4,226]

The players aren't good enough fullstop. They weren't good enough for Smith and they don't seem good enough for Wagner. I'm not sure any coach could get them playing.

We need new players. Lots of them.

 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,710]

He's the German Dean Smith

[NFN FC 1,123]

Maybe we should stop picking managers with fundamentally different styles of play. That is what the DoF is supposed to do, isn't it? Continuity of football philosophy throughout the playing levels? 

[Midlands Yellow 3,975]

Too many players comfortable, cosy and on a good screw that they wouldn’t get at other clubs. 

[TheBaldOne66 682]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I agree we don't have the players, or enough of them,  who want to play his way. 

If we are going with him then we need probably 5 new first eleven players just to start with.

That’s the fault of Webber, he said we would play the same way whoever was in charge when Farke was here yet under the last 2 appointments that’s gone out of the window. He assembled the squad so he should have appointed managers who wanted to play the same way surely

[hogesar 9,658]

46 minutes ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

That’s the fault of Webber, he said we would play the same way whoever was in charge when Farke was here yet under the last 2 appointments that’s gone out of the window. He assembled the squad so he should have appointed managers who wanted to play the same way surely

Agreed, but what it seems like is Webber decided we couldn't play the Farke way and survive in the prem so tried to get us doing something a bit different. But it's not worked and we have a squad who can't really do either styles.

[HazzaJet 252]

I wouldn’t write Wagner off yet. We got off to a good start under him, and then we got several injuries . You also have to remember that the new manager inherits the previous manager’s squad. I mean why did Lambert only manage to get Ipswich to finish rock bottom of the Championship and unable to even get them going in League One when he won us the League One title and even managed to get us automatic promotion to the PL the following season? It was down to the squad he inherited. In Farke’s first season with us we also finished below Ipswich, then after a few new signings in the summer we finished at opposite ends of the table.

I’ve seen posts on here about how we’re not playing an experienced CB now and why are we - does Wagner really intend to? No, it’s simply because we don’t have any available 

I think I would wait and see who we sign this summer and give Wagner about 8 league fixtures into next season before I write him off, provided we don’t have any major injuries

[chicken 2,624]

1 hour ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

That’s the fault of Webber, he said we would play the same way whoever was in charge when Farke was here yet under the last 2 appointments that’s gone out of the window. He assembled the squad so he should have appointed managers who wanted to play the same way surely

Can anyone find the piece where he says that? I'm genuinely interested as I don't recall it.

 

[Essjayess 307]

3 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

I like Wagner the man, he seems to have integrity, a good attitude and a likeable personality. However I worry his style doesn’t fit our players (or English football) and barring one miracle with Huddersfield - he hasn’t exactly set the world on fire. 

Tactically he worries me- he seems blind to the fact that one striker has worked better than three. He also seems to want players to fit his style rather than a style to fit our players. What if he flops in 6 months and we purchased a load of pressing athletes for a style no other managers use? 

that said look at how Farke turned it around. And we need stability. So - who knows??! Would you stick or twist? 

Stability?...oh like no more yo-yo tween Prem and Champs?..No worries, i feel mid table Champs stability could be here for a few seasons.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,543]

Ask me again next Summer.

[jaberry2 550]

It remains to be seen really. He has inherited a pretty pants team, but my general feel he was a pretty poor stop gap after the failure which was Smith. I suppose the question is would you trust him to find new players, if it falls to him.

[Danke bitte 965]

My feeling is he inherited a monster of Farke and Smith teams shorn of experience and weapons.

A team, which I’ve heard on the grapevine, was pretty unfit (as we all know Wagner requires fitness first from his squads). 
 
Then injuries, lots of injuries.

But, my caveat would be, if he was a really good coach he could of navigated these waters opting for a plan C given A and B were crocked.

Id definitely give him a fair crack at the whip considering the above, I’m not sure he’s the one given he’s Webber’s man and Webber isn’t exactly popular in these here parts. But equally Wagner’s not had the best time.

Given we’ll never attract the next Graham Potter right now, I think we go with what we’ve got and see what happens the first few months of next season. 

[pete 318]

Little evidence Wagner is an able coach.  And no evidence at all Webber is still a capable DOF.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

16 hours ago, hogesar said:

Agreed, but what it seems like is Webber decided we couldn't play the Farke way and survive in the prem so tried to get us doing something a bit different. But it's not worked and we have a squad who can't really do either styles.

Yep, that's it. What is clear is that all three managers like possession as a primary defence and my suspicion is that Webber basically looked to have possession football as the "Norwich way". Farke went to the extreme that both full-backs would go rampaging up the field and have three creative players behind a striker who would be good at retrieving balls sent into the channels but not be a classic "hold-up" player so that overloads were available in several different places and tie the opposition in.

Problem was, as we all knew, we were more open than Katie Price's grundies when we lost the ball.

Smith, to be fair to him, clearly tried to sort this out by tying the full-backs down somewhat as one of the solutions. We saw enough cases where Aarons seemed scared to go forward and use his pace and stamina and compared to his Farke performances his showings looked comparatively anaemic. He also looked for a bigger guy up top as an out-ball for holding up the ball. Idah looked like he was going to be that man after a couple of very promising appearances, particularly Everton and West Ham, then got a bad injury. Not to mention Pukki always had plenty of credit and kept coming up with goals in a struggling outfit so was difficult to drop.

Wagner's come in, and as I've said before, his teams press harder off the ball than either of Smith or Farke. On the one hand, our full-backs realise they can go forward again. On the other, we still can't get the balance in midfield right, but with Sara's emergence, we do look a bit closer. However, we've inconsistent and I think a lot of it is fitness. Pressing as hard as a classic Wagner team does needs excellent fitness and tremendous powers of recuperation between matches. We don't appear to have that - against Blackburn we looked crisp, organised, lively, and resilient out of possession. Against Rotherham we were half-a-yard too slow to really turn the screw on them (and had a litany of injuries to key experienced players).

And here's another thing, under Farke you could basically say the team was built to feed Pukki. Pukki will leave as a club legend and rightly so, but let's face it, he basically had a couple of variations of one trick, which was to fly into the channels off the last shoulder -either to get a one-on-one or to retrieve the ball or keep it moving. He wasn't great at holding it up, we all know he was never great in the air and for all his excellent work rate, he was never really an out ball. Keep feeding him throughballs though, and he'd bag loads. And he did bag loads. Smith realised Pukki would get goals but couldn't quite shape the midfield to suit it, and also told the full-backs to stay back. Far less supply. More long balls. Suits a Sargent or Idah more who are physically stronger and can compete.

So, we're not just caught between managers, we're caught between strikers. But I'll be hoping we get a damn good chance to give Pukki a rousing send-off and thank you for all he's done.

[Danke bitte 965]

36 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Suits a Sargent or Idah more who are physically stronger and can compete.

I see what you’re getting at but neither has shown particular competence in being physical. Idah certainly hasn’t, Josh in flashes but lacks the first touch. Relying on these two as a front focus next season and we’ll see double figures combined. Hardly a return when you think about how many Pukki got in 18/19. The times they’re a changin’ but we’ve left it late to replace the genius of Pukki. I guess it’s why we’re hoping for more goals spread across our forward play and not focusing on a striker to do that. 

[repman 635]

I don't think he's that good really. He was good 4/5 years ago but I think football has evolved since then and he's not been able to keep up. Wagner's press worked back then because lots of teams were trying to play out from the back but the level of sophistication in build up play wasn't what it is now. He also benefited from Huddersfield's underdog status where teams were much more likely to attack them (combined with the fact they were hardly a winning machine anyway). 

Most teams have realised as the season has gone on that you can give us the ball and if we are pressed then we can't find a way out of it or if you sit off we probably won't find a way to unlock it. The lack of a quality and consistent plan in possession is what has been our biggest downfall this season, as well as the clear differentiating factor from the Farke era. The big worry now is that Wagner doesn't have it in him to fix the problems, considering it's been a while of the same issues cropping up and we look no nearer to addressing them.

Ultimately I don't think Wagner has shown anywhere near enough to suggest that he's the man to take us forward. People might say the players aren't good enough but that should mean they can't execute a plan, what we're seeing right now is the absence of a plan, that comes back to the coaching staff. There's also talk in this thread about needing the right players for his 'style'. While there is some truth that certain players suit him better I think it's a big cop out to suggest he shouldn't be able to adapt even in the slightest. 3 of the 4 sides in the playoffs changed managers mid season. Look at Rob Edwards at Luton, his Forest Green side were known for the excellent football they played but at Luton he has maintained more of the style that they had under Nathan Jones before him. Another example is in the PL at Brighton, they are unmistakably a side in De Zerbi's image now. Is it not possible that Wagner's 'style' simply isn't particularly suited to today's game, his last success was with Huddersfield and he's been sacked from his 2 previous jobs. What's there to suggest he's actually got it in him now? The talk of giving him a pre season feels eerily similar to what we heard last year regarding Smith and we all know how that turned out. 

 

[crispeduk 282]

I know there's some obvious shortcomings but wouldn't like to pre-judge a revamped squad or the coach before we see a team on the pitch after an intense pre-season. Fitness plays a bigger part in success in all sports now than ever before.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

16 hours ago, Essjayess said:

Stability?...oh like no more yo-yo tween Prem and Champs?..No worries, i feel mid table Champs stability could be here for a few seasons.

See it doesn't bother me being in this league, just want to watch players who can control a ball and a team which can string a few passes together. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

2 hours ago, Danke bitte said:

I see what you’re getting at but neither has shown particular competence in being physical. Idah certainly hasn’t, Josh in flashes but lacks the first touch. Relying on these two as a front focus next season and we’ll see double figures combined. Hardly a return when you think about how many Pukki got in 18/19. The times they’re a changin’ but we’ve left it late to replace the genius of Pukki. I guess it’s why we’re hoping for more goals spread across our forward play and not focusing on a striker to do that. 

Relative to Pukki, they are. Idah seems to lack aggression. He reminds me of an old five-a-side team-mate called Dan who we nicknamed Buffalo, who was about the same height as me (just under 5'9"), about three times wider than me and the most gentle "big guy" on a football pitch you could imagine. If he'd have fancied rugby he would have been a natural prop. If you'd put my aggression into him (remember that stereotypical hyper-annoying ten-stone terrier that chased and kicked absolutely everything that got within range... that was me when I wasn't in goal), he'd have been a hazard in football boots, but he would never push anyone around. He was one of those who was scared of hurting others as with the size of him, if he'd really put his foot down the carnage could have been glorious. Thankfully we had a karate second-Dan black belt in the ranks called Matt, and what Dan lacked in aggression, and what I couldn't provide in aggression for tackling as I was in goal, Matt replaced in spades.

Idah needs it drilling into him that he's got to throw his weight around a bit. He looks more effective when he does, the West Ham game in particular was one where he seemed to get the idea, then he got injured.

The other thing is, both Idah and Sargent can cause trouble in the air which Pukki never could. That brings old-school wingers back into the game and also makes attacking full-backs more of a weapon. We've got an old-school winger in Hernandez. Rowe looks like he could be another. On top of that, knowing you have big lads to aim at simplifies the game for wingers, they just need a yard of space and then slap a cross in. Our wingers often struggled with end product with Pukki as wingers don't generally aim to hit channel balls (see Placheta and some of his cr*p passes/propensity to overthink when faced with Pukki to aim at).

So whilst I'd agree that at the moment you wouldn't get the same goal return, you don't have the support structure in place to get goals out of them. You don't feed Idah and Sargent the same diet as Pukki. Feed Pukki a relentless diet of channel balls and he'll get you goals. Feed Pukki a litany of crosses and all you'll get is sh*t.

Hugill suffered for the same reason. His scoring at Rotherham shows that he knows what he's doing at this level. Can say the same for Carlton Morris at Luton too.

Edited April 27, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

1 hour ago, repman said:

I don't think he's that good really. He was good 4/5 years ago but I think football has evolved since then and he's not been able to keep up. Wagner's press worked back then because lots of teams were trying to play out from the back but the level of sophistication in build up play wasn't what it is now. He also benefited from Huddersfield's underdog status where teams were much more likely to attack them (combined with the fact they were hardly a winning machine anyway). 

Most teams have realised as the season has gone on that you can give us the ball and if we are pressed then we can't find a way out of it or if you sit off we probably won't find a way to unlock it. The lack of a quality and consistent plan in possession is what has been our biggest downfall this season, as well as the clear differentiating factor from the Farke era. The big worry now is that Wagner doesn't have it in him to fix the problems, considering it's been a while of the same issues cropping up and we look no nearer to addressing them.

Ultimately I don't think Wagner has shown anywhere near enough to suggest that he's the man to take us forward. People might say the players aren't good enough but that should mean they can't execute a plan, what we're seeing right now is the absence of a plan, that comes back to the coaching staff. There's also talk in this thread about needing the right players for his 'style'. While there is some truth that certain players suit him better I think it's a big cop out to suggest he shouldn't be able to adapt even in the slightest. 3 of the 4 sides in the playoffs changed managers mid season. Look at Rob Edwards at Luton, his Forest Green side were known for the excellent football they played but at Luton he has maintained more of the style that they had under Nathan Jones before him. Another example is in the PL at Brighton, they are unmistakably a side in De Zerbi's image now. Is it not possible that Wagner's 'style' simply isn't particularly suited to today's game, his last success was with Huddersfield and he's been sacked from his 2 previous jobs. What's there to suggest he's actually got it in him now? The talk of giving him a pre season feels eerily similar to what we heard last year regarding Smith and we all know how that turned out. 

 

Obvious difference between the two in bold you mention and Norwich as it currently stands is that, contrary to Norwich, both Brighton and Luton were very much left when on the up so the incoming manager in both cases really didn't have a rebuilding job on their hands. It's a foolish manager who decides to rip up a team that's on the up just to fit how they imagine football should be played. At that point it really is more of a case of gently tweaking what's there and not rebuilding, which is closer to where we are.

[repman 635]

7 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Obvious difference between the two in bold you mention and Norwich as it currently stands is that, contrary to Norwich, both Brighton and Luton were very much left when on the up so the incoming manager in both cases really didn't have a rebuilding job on their hands. It's a foolish manager who decides to rip up a team that's on the up just to fit how they imagine football should be played. At that point it really is more of a case of gently tweaking what's there and not rebuilding, which is closer to where we are.

That's a fair point though I'd obviously point to Middlesbrough and, to a lesser extent, West Brom. Both sides doing much worse than we were when their new managers came in. My point generally is that I don't think a rebuilding job should be a pre-requisite for a manager's success. There should at least be some green shoots before you commit to reshaping the whole squad in their image. I don't think Wagner has demonstrated enough to earn that right.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

4 minutes ago, repman said:

That's a fair point though I'd obviously point to Middlesbrough and, to a lesser extent, West Brom. Both sides doing much worse than we were when their new managers came in. My point generally is that I don't think a rebuilding job should be a pre-requisite for a manager's success. There should at least be some green shoots before you commit to reshaping the whole squad in their image. I don't think Wagner has demonstrated enough to earn that right.

I think those two were always massively underperforming though, but fans of both teams would be better candidates to ask. I do agree with the bit in bold, but I'd say the success lies in establishing what the right thing to do is and in some cases it's not tinkering around too much, and in other cases more drastic surgery may be required on the team. Edwards was smart enough not to tinker too much with a well-drilled and confident unit at Luton and got the rewards, De Zerbi did the same at Brighton even after losing Trossard.

I'd say Sara and Gibbs are the main green shoots out of this season. Gunn's emerged from Krul's shadow quite well but needs to work on being a more commanding figure. Rowe is an intriguing blank sheet who I would like to see get games. But our malaise at the moment is very much due to being caught very much betwixt and between.

[repman 635]

10 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I think those two were always massively underperforming though, but fans of both teams would be better candidates to ask. I do agree with the bit in bold, but I'd say the success lies in establishing what the right thing to do is and in some cases it's not tinkering around too much, and in other cases more drastic surgery may be required on the team. Edwards was smart enough not to tinker too much with a well-drilled and confident unit at Luton and got the rewards, De Zerbi did the same at Brighton even after losing Trossard.

I'd say Sara and Gibbs are the main green shoots out of this season. Gunn's emerged from Krul's shadow quite well but needs to work on being a more commanding figure. Rowe is an intriguing blank sheet who I would like to see get games. But our malaise at the moment is very much due to being caught very much betwixt and between.

They certainly were underperforming but the turnaround by Carrick at Middlesbrough is more than that, they've gone from a side who were perhaps getting a bit unlucky to a complete machine. I think we were underperforming when we sacked Smith and are still doing so under Wagner. It's a pretty damning indictment that you could probably show someone a game from Smith's tenure and one from Wagner's tenure and they wouldn't be able to see all that much difference, save for Kenny McLean dropping in between the CB's. 

There's been a lack of a consistent plan on the pitch all season, particularly in possession. It's not the case that a bad team can't do it, we finished 14th under Farke but it was clear then that he was establishing principles in possession, you can't say the same about Wagner at all. If Wagner's style is so different and also going to be successful, why can't we see any semblance of it already? When he came in we had a clear shot at the playoffs so I don't see why he shouldn't be drilling it into the players already. Even if we didn't go up surely it would be good to get a head start with the players who will be next year (there'll be at the very least 10). What I think is more likely is that this is Wagner's style we're seeing, the pressing isn't as hellbent as it was 4/5 years ago because teams will simply cut through you nowadays. Look what Swansea did to us on Saturday.

The way I see it is that Wagner has failed in his task since he came in and has turned around and said it's not me it's the players. 

P.S. I do agree with your point about Sara/Gibbs/Gunn but I was talking more green shoots in our style of play rather than the performance of individuals.

 

[Mason 47 1,376]

I think it's hard to judge him too firmly thus far, there's been a number of oddities that have coloured his time with us.

I'm of the opinion that we'll be looking to recruit for this formation/ tactic in summer, hence why he's doggedly stuck to it (despite other variations often looking superior). Whether we like it or not, we couldnt/ wouldnt/ shouldn't be replacing 14 players this summer so it's designed to set the standard ahead of the rebuild.

[Danke bitte 965]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

So whilst I'd agree that at the moment you wouldn't get the same goal return, you don't have the support structure in place to get goals out of them. You don't feed Idah and Sargent the same diet as Pukki. Feed Pukki a relentless diet of channel balls and he'll get you goals. Feed Pukki a litany of crosses and all you'll get is sh*t.

Completely understand what you’re saying and agree. But surely the football you’re describing is against the NCFC way and sounds to me like the route that most teams try and play in the Championship - long balls to the big man? Or have I read that wrong?

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

24 minutes ago, Danke bitte said:

Completely understand what you’re saying and agree. But surely the football you’re describing is against the NCFC way and sounds to me like the route that most teams try and play in the Championship - long balls to the big man? Or have I read that wrong?

I think you'll see pace on the wings either as a weapon in itself or a means of causing overlaps on them, and much more emphasis on crosses instead of through balls as a means of attack. On top of that, much more pace up top should give us a more threatening press (or help us get back faster if beaten). So my guess is you'll see more changes of pace. Some periods of slow possession just to slow it down for us and make the opposition run around, then try to strike. I suspect you'll see a lot of diagonal balls from deep hit to a wing as a counter and an attempt to change the pace.

What we won't see is possession play in Farke's purist possession style. And in that way Farke was a poisoned chalice in that the football he gave us when it clicked was often stunning to watch - waves upon waves of fluid, incessant attacking in possession. You might get some phases where it looks similar, but nowhere near as prolonged.

55 minutes ago, repman said:

They certainly were underperforming but the turnaround by Carrick at Middlesbrough is more than that, they've gone from a side who were perhaps getting a bit unlucky to a complete machine. I think we were underperforming when we sacked Smith and are still doing so under Wagner. It's a pretty damning indictment that you could probably show someone a game from Smith's tenure and one from Wagner's tenure and they wouldn't be able to see all that much difference, save for Kenny McLean dropping in between the CB's. 

There's been a lack of a consistent plan on the pitch all season, particularly in possession. It's not the case that a bad team can't do it, we finished 14th under Farke but it was clear then that he was establishing principles in possession, you can't say the same about Wagner at all. If Wagner's style is so different and also going to be successful, why can't we see any semblance of it already? When he came in we had a clear shot at the playoffs so I don't see why he shouldn't be drilling it into the players already. Even if we didn't go up surely it would be good to get a head start with the players who will be next year (there'll be at the very least 10). What I think is more likely is that this is Wagner's style we're seeing, the pressing isn't as hellbent as it was 4/5 years ago because teams will simply cut through you nowadays. Look what Swansea did to us on Saturday.

The way I see it is that Wagner has failed in his task since he came in and has turned around and said it's not me it's the players. 

P.S. I do agree with your point about Sara/Gibbs/Gunn but I was talking more green shoots in our style of play rather than the performance of individuals.

 

I'm not sure we are underperforming by all that much (after all, Watford aren't tearing up trees either and in Sarr, they've got a serious weapon in their ranks), and am beginning to think that Wagner's travails indicate that the problem was neither Smith nor him, but either within the team, or something else behind the scenes.

It is definitely possible that the pressing is not as good for the reason you say, but I'll say it's also possible that it is due to a relative lack of fitness. We do know Wagner's brought back double sessions so he's clearly decided that the lads need to get fitter, but halfway through a tough season like the Championship is not where you're going to see the benefits.

[Danke bitte 965]

2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I think you'll see pace on the wings either as a weapon in itself or a means of causing overlaps on them, and much more emphasis on crosses instead of through balls as a means of attack. On top of that, much more pace up top should give us a more threatening press (or help us get back faster if beaten). So my guess is you'll see more changes of pace. Some periods of slow possession just to slow it down for us and make the opposition run around, then try to strike. I suspect you'll see a lot of diagonal balls from deep hit to a wing as a counter and an attempt to change the pace.

What we won't see is possession play in Farke's purist possession style. And in that way Farke was a poisoned chalice in that the football he gave us when it clicked was often stunning to watch - waves upon waves of fluid, incessant attacking in possession. You might get some phases where it looks similar, but nowhere near as prolonged.

I'm not sure we are underperforming by all that much (after all, Watford aren't tearing up trees either and in Sarr, they've got a serious weapon in their ranks), and am beginning to think that Wagner's travails indicate that the problem was neither Smith nor him, but either within the team, or something else behind the scenes.

It is definitely possible that the pressing is not as good for the reason you say, but I'll say it's also possible that it is due to a relative lack of fitness. We do know Wagner's brought back double sessions so he's clearly decided that the lads need to get fitter, but halfway through a tough season like the Championship is not where you're going to see the benefits.

Perfectly insightful post! Thank you! : )