Worst Norwich squad since..

[By Hook or Ian crook 943]

For me this squad has to go down as the worst Norwich squad in a decade. Even with previous mid table finishes we had exciting talents like Hoolahan, Huckerby and Maddison. I can’t remember watching a Norwich side so devoid of quality since we got relegated under Gunn. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by By Hook or Ian crook

[Nexus_Canary 1,206]

The last squad to lose to ip5sh1t.

That's your yardstick.

[norfolkngood 1,174]

20 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

For me this squad has to go down as the worst Norwich squad in a decade. Even with previous mid table finishes we had exciting talents like Hoolahan, Huckerby and Maddison. I can’t remember watching a Norwich side so devoid of quality since we got relegated under Gunn. 

i think it is the most expensive thats what is the real lump in the throat  ,

if we had these players and bought them for cheap money then nobody could complain 

but the money that has been wasted to build this squad is unbelievable 

[canarydan23 4,761]

1 hour ago, norfolkngood said:

i think it is the most expensive thats what is the real lump in the throat  ,

if we had these players and bought them for cheap money then nobody could complain 

but the money that has been wasted to build this squad is unbelievable 

It really is. For a Championship side it is dreadful. In the last three years;

Tzolis - £9.5 million

Sara - £9 million

Sargent - £8 million

Gibson - £8 million

Giannoulis - £6 million

Gunn - £5 million

McCallum - £3.5 million

Nunez - £3.5 million

Nunez would be the record transfer fee for Preston, Luton and Millwall. It's been five years since Sunderland spent more than £3 million on a player. It's been over two decades since Coventry have spent more than £2 million on a player. Blackburn have spent over £1 million on just one player in the last three years.

Watford are in a similarly bad position to us in that they're struggling with a massively expensive squad for a Championship club, but at least they netted over £20 million profit in their summer transfer dealings, we forked out an eight-figure sum and sit just three points ahead of them. Burnley netted £30 million plus profit in their summer transfers and sit 30 points ahead of us.

Webber could teach McNally a whole ****ing degree course on pissing money up the wall.

[cambridgeshire canary 7,798]

1 hour ago, Nexus_Canary said:

The last squad to lose to ip5sh1t.

That's your yardstick.

1

D Marshall

2

J Otsemobor

4

J Shackell

12

G Doherty

21

R Bertrand

7

L Croft

8

S Clingan

20

D Russell

17

A Gow

23

A Lee

18

D Mooney

Substitutes

25

S Nelson

19

S Lappin

27

C McDonald

22

A Leijer

30

K Smith

[keelansgrandad 6,680]

Worst time for the club in a decade. Hopefully it will come good.

[nutty nigel 7,902]

Exactly. So why was it Smith's fault?

[sonyc 6,144]

4 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Exactly. So why was it Smith's fault?

Exactly. Nothing is ever one person's entire fault. Smith, like Wagner, like Farke in the PL and so on couldn't get it to work very well. There are so many variables and in a season you also have luck or you don't. You have a perfect team spirit or you don't. No one single team can expect to always be at the top.

There is responsibility however and it rests mainly at the top table. As it does in any company all round the world. What will happen we wait to see. Change is afoot, a change of the guard...maybe that very fact might indicate a huge transition, an end of a cycle and our season is just a kind of microcosm of it all. 

Our expectations were higher at the start of our campaign...always a dangerous thing. Sometimes it is healthier to lower our expectations. I'm neither being apologist to the present set up or team or manager nor am I uncritical. We can always look forward to new ownership as an opportunity for change, a new team and a new season. No point in losing too much sleep on something completely out of our control.

[Making Plans 957]

15 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Exactly. So why was it Smith's fault?

Crap squad + crap manager = perfect storm

You have to change something and you can't get rid or replace a whole squad in mid season

 

[nutty nigel 7,902]

5 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Exactly. Nothing is ever one person's entire fault. Smith, like Wagner, like Farke in the PL and so on couldn't get it to work very well. There are so many variables and in a season you also have luck or you don't. You have a perfect team spirit or you don't. No one single team can expect to always be at the top.

There is responsibility however and it rests mainly at the top table. As it does in any company all round the world. What will happen we wait to see. Change is afoot, a change of the guard...maybe that very fact might indicate a huge transition, an end of a cycle and our season is just a kind of microcosm of it all. 

Our expectations were higher at the start of our campaign...always a dangerous thing. Sometimes it is healthier to lower our expectations. I'm neither being apologist to the present set up or team or manager nor am I uncritical. We can always look forward to new ownership as an opportunity for change, a new team and a new season. No point in losing too much sleep on something completely out of our control.

It is what it is Sonyc.

But the blame game we've gone through this season you couldn't even make up. The final straw for me was the happiness that Kenny and Hanley had bad injuries. Hand on heart I believe we'd be in the top six this morning if they hadn't. It's not lost on me that missing these two so much is an indication of how poor this squad is. But like with the unwarranted criticism of Delia it's been totally unfair.

Should Kenny get POTS? Probably, there's been no one better. Will he get it? Probably not.

[Dr Greenthumb 792]

39 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Exactly. So why was it Smith's fault?

Which Smith?

[Midlands Yellow 4,682]

59 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

It really is. For a Championship side it is dreadful. In the last three years;

Tzolis - £9.5 million

Sara - £9 million

Sargent - £8 million

Gibson - £8 million

Giannoulis - £6 million

Gunn - £5 million

McCallum - £3.5 million

Nunez - £3.5 million

Nunez would be the record transfer fee for Preston, Luton and Millwall. It's been five years since Sunderland spent more than £3 million on a player. It's been over two decades since Coventry have spent more than £2 million on a player. Blackburn have spent over £1 million on just one player in the last three years.

Watford are in a similarly bad position to us in that they're struggling with a massively expensive squad for a Championship club, but at least they netted over £20 million profit in their summer transfer dealings, we forked out an eight-figure sum and sit just three points ahead of them. Burnley netted £30 million plus profit in their summer transfers and sit 30 points ahead of us.

Webber could teach McNally a whole ****ing degree course on pissing money up the wall.

I’d pick Gibson from that list for the biggest waste of money award (£40k wages per week swing it) 

[canarydan23 4,761]

1 minute ago, Midlands Yellow said:

I’d pick Gibson from that list for the biggest waste of money award (£40k wages per week swing it) 

Possibly, but he was very good for us whilst on loan. But yeah, since he's been our player he's been absolute dog****.

[sonyc 6,144]

2 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

It is what it is Sonyc.

But the blame game we've gone through this season you couldn't even make up. The final straw for me was the happiness that Kenny and Hanley had bad injuries. Hand on heart I believe we'd be in the top six this morning if they hadn't. It's not lost on me that missing these two so much is an indication of how poor this squad is. But like with the unwarranted criticism of Delia it's been totally unfair.

Should Kenny get POTS? Probably, there's been no one better. Will he get it? Probably not.

Yes Grant Hanley is a stalwart for sure...not my favourite CB, but you can argue that we do look less assured at the back when he hasn't been playing. He wouldn't be in the Scotland team either had he not have been better than his contemporaries. Steve Clarke is no fool of a manager. We may not see him back for quite a while.

As for Kenny, he had my vote. He clearly (in my eyes) has been like the captain nearly all the season. He has given it all. Just what my eyes have told me. Sara is the better player but he has been great for about half the season.

Delia will stand down I think. Whatever all of the plusses and minuses of her time with us, the overall scorecard is in massive credit. I would bet nearly every club in the country might have wished for an owner like her. She will be remembered very well and its been a matter of pride for me that she has been our owner.  But then I like the way she sees the world anyway...plus she sticks to what she believes.

 

[Midlands Yellow 4,682]

15 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

It is what it is Sonyc.

But the blame game we've gone through this season you couldn't even make up. The final straw for me was the happiness that Kenny and Hanley had bad injuries. Hand on heart I believe we'd be in the top six this morning if they hadn't. It's not lost on me that missing these two so much is an indication of how poor this squad is. But like with the unwarranted criticism of Delia it's been totally unfair.

Should Kenny get POTS? Probably, there's been no one better. Will he get it? Probably not.

I think he will get it and possibly deserves it. That said when a player of Kenny McLeans ability is your POTS then you ain’t making the top 6. 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Midlands Yellow

[By Hook or Ian crook 943]

55 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Exactly. So why was it Smith's fault?

Not all the problems come from the manager but the things that were his fault were. 
 

- poor style of play (which is being echoed by Wagner now) 

- inability to coach a defence to defend properly 

- inability to get simple triangles, pass and move style implemented by players who had previously been capable of said style under Farke. 
 

for me the main difference between this squad and the squad we last won promotion with ( bar the massive Buendia hole who I believe won that league almost singlehanded), is having a capable manager who can implement his football philosophy on the group and they buy into it. Everything under both Smith and now Wagner seems so disjointed and inconsistent. 

[nutty nigel 7,902]

10 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Not all the problems come from the manager but the things that were his fault were. 
 

- poor style of play (which is being echoed by Wagner now) 

- inability to coach a defence to defend properly 

- inability to get simple triangles, pass and move style implemented by players who had previously been capable of said style under Farke. 
 

for me the main difference between this squad and the squad we last won promotion with ( bar the massive Buendia hole who I believe won that league almost singlehanded), is having a capable manager who can implement his football philosophy on the group and they buy into it. Everything under both Smith and now Wagner seems so disjointed and inconsistent. 

But a manager won't put his mark on a club with the players he inherits unless he inherits a good squad like Alex Neil did. They need more than one transfer window. They need more time. If Farke had been sacked after a year, like so many wanted, the success that followed wouldn't have happened.

 

[nutty nigel 7,902]

29 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

I think he will get it and possibly deserves it. That said when a player of Kenny McLeans ability is your POTS then you ain’t making the top 6. 

No you don't think that unless you agree every thing you posted previously is nonsense.

[Midlands Yellow 4,682]

8 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

No you don't think that unless you agree every thing you posted previously is nonsense.

He’s the epitome of a 6/10 (3,4 in the Premier League) most weeks squad player. There’s clearly far better players than Kenny at Norwich but them having one good game in two or three matches is why we’re not going up. 

You’re quite correct in that I don’t really rate him but I don’t particularly rate any other player on a consistent level this season. I think you and Hoggy should present him with the award pitch side before the Blackpool match. 
 

Edited April 20, 2023 by Midlands Yellow

[Barham Blitz 869]

Now I'm going to be the first to admit that we haven't bought well in recent seasons but there are some perfectly adequate players in the squad.  It is just wildly unbalanced with some obvious and glaring gaps, no clear tactical direction since Farke and the playing squad is currently an unholy balance of three different approaches most of which are largely incompatible.

For all the money we have spent, a quick glance at Transfer Market demonstrates that we are operating at a massive transfer surplus since 17/18 despite the additional Premiership income and bearing in mind the impact of COVID.  So yes we have spent some money - a lot of money by our standards - but we have also generated a lot in sales over a longer period.

The issue for me remains that last Premiership season additions in particular have all massively underperformed and the squad as a whole cannot seemingly be moulded into a coherent system.  Which is an indictment of the SD model designed to avoid precisely this issue as well as a wage structure which apparently swallows any Premiership money faster than success - and net player sales across a wider period - can earn it.

We need a clear tactical vision and a clear out of players unsuited to that vision. 

Of course that is not to say that the squad as a whole is good.  It has gone backwards in the last 5-6 years and of the players we have bought very few - maybe Sara and Gunn (and technically Aaron's) will have have appreciated in value.  Which considering the income generated and the fact that we apparently have nothing left in the kitty to rebuild is frankly embarrassing.

But to look at how much we have spent (and I would agree largely wasted) without looking at overall net expenditure is only looking at half the story.  It was the gamble last Premiership season which has cost us - betting the farm on promising but relatively expensive players to support a flawed tactical approach which has resulted in the careful building across five or six seasons to disintegrate into the mess we are currently experiencing.  

To compare us to other Championship team's expenditure is slightly disengenuous.  We have operated in a different market to them for the last three seasons.  The Burnley comparison is more apt and more damning however.  We need to recoup whatever we can on the likes of Rashica and Tzolis and start building again towards a coherent system and squad to get us back to sustainably challenging in the championship, hopefully supported by the odd yo-yo foray into the Premiership but not dependent on it.

[Ulfotto 798]

1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

Exactly. So why was it Smith's fault?

It was the hangover from last season that did for Smith. If he had his record from this season had been appointed in the summer he would still be charge and we would be in the playoffs albeit from just

i feel Wagner record from this season will ultimately mean next season will be very similar to this year. In that after two poor performances at home the natives will be restless which is what ultimately did for Smith. At the moment Wagner is Smith with better PR.

[By Hook or Ian crook 943]

35 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

But a manager won't put his mark on a club with the players he inherits unless he inherits a good squad like Alex Neil did. They need more than one transfer window. They need more time. If Farke had been sacked after a year, like so many wanted, the success that followed wouldn't have happened.

 

This is true can’t argue with that 

[Nexus_Canary 1,206]

2 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

1

D Marshall

2

J Otsemobor

4

J Shackell

12

G Doherty

21

R Bertrand

7

L Croft

8

S Clingan

20

D Russell

17

A Gow

23

A Lee

18

D Mooney

Substitutes

25

S Nelson

19

S Lappin

27

C McDonald

22

A Leijer

30

K Smith

Wow people complain about our current squad.

Not sure I would entertain any of those as back up even, 

Clingan, Lappin the stand outs?

Croft and Doc for some maybe.

But yeh none of those could make it into our first team currently.

 

[canarydan23 4,761]

1 hour ago, Midlands Yellow said:

I think he will get it and possibly deserves it. That said when a player of Kenny McLeans ability is your POTS then you ain’t making the top 6. 

Exactly. McLean is a decent Championship midfielder, he's proven that over three Championship seasons with us.

But if he's going to be one of your top two or three players (or even your top one) then you're not getting promoted from the Championship. You need several players much better than him to be a promotion contender. I can't remember who was top 3 in the last title-winning season, but you'd put Buendia, Skipp, Pukki, Krul, Hanley, Gibson and Aarons ahead of him in any POTS award. Two years prior to that he only really came good towards the end of the season so you'd have Pukki, Hernandez, Zimmermann, Aarons, Stiepermann, Klose, Godfrey, Vrancic, Leitner, Tettey and Lewis all ahead of him.

The fact that he will deservedly be in the top 3, and possibly win, POTS is a damning indictment on Webber's ability to assemble a competitive squad in the past two seasons.

[Indy 3,471]

It's not at all the worst squad, in a decade and going back further people appear to forget the Roeder year and post that......we had some ****e even playing the ginger Pele up front as we didn't have a striker, Andy Hughes anyone! utterly rubbish.

This team is absolutely devoid of confidence and has lost all focus, we still in touch of top 6 and so it's a blow not to get promoted but daft to be so dramatic, there are too many on here who started post 2000 when before that we drew a crowd of 13K and had some really poor teams.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Indy

[Midlands Yellow 4,682]

4 minutes ago, Indy said:

It's not at all the worst squad, in a decade and going back further people appear to forget the Roeder year and post that......we had some ****e even playing the ginger Pele up front as we didn't have a striker, Andy Hughes anyone! utterly rubbish.

This team is absolutely devoid of confidence and has lost all focus, we still in touch of top 6 and so it's a blow not to get promoted but daft to be so dramatic, there are too many on here who started post 2000 when before that we drew a crowd of 13K and had some really poor teams.

The good old days. Cash accepted at the juvenile turnstile even in my early 20s. 

[crispeduk 282]

Agree there’s been big underachievement by the squad and several individuals, but that doesn’t equate to them all being poor players (even though they might be) and disagree with the idea it didn’t matter who the head coach was. Maybe it didn’t, but while both this season’s coaches have been hampered by the hand they were dealt, from memory one has not even had the benefit of more than a few days unbroken coaching never mind a pre-season. Of the players who want to stick around and who are wanted by by the club a training and coaching camp could well have us seeing steady improvement among some of the ‘expensive flops’ and certainly greater intensity across the squad. It’s been bad for us watching on, but just getting through this season will have been a make do and mend treadmill for some of the players. I see little live football these days and know that however good tv coverage is, it’s not the same and so bow to the judgement of regulars, especially the away support if I'm wrong. But I just can’t help looking ahead as a glass half full person and my feeling is that Wagner has much more about him than we have seen.

[By Hook or Ian crook 943]

55 minutes ago, crispeduk said:

Agree there’s been big underachievement by the squad and several individuals, but that doesn’t equate to them all being poor players (even though they might be) and disagree with the idea it didn’t matter who the head coach was. Maybe it didn’t, but while both this season’s coaches have been hampered by the hand they were dealt, from memory one has not even had the benefit of more than a few days unbroken coaching never mind a pre-season. Of the players who want to stick around and who are wanted by by the club a training and coaching camp could well have us seeing steady improvement among some of the ‘expensive flops’ and certainly greater intensity across the squad. It’s been bad for us watching on, but just getting through this season will have been a make do and mend treadmill for some of the players. I see little live football these days and know that however good tv coverage is, it’s not the same and so bow to the judgement of regulars, especially the away support if I'm wrong. But I just can’t help looking ahead as a glass half full person and my feeling is that Wagner has much more about him than we have seen.

Since 2013 which is a decade ago, only the squad from 2017/18 which finished 14th would have a lower placed finish than this current squad. That was the team that was blessed with the likes of James Maddison, Wes, the Murphy twins, Godfrey,  Lewis, Pinto, vrancic, Jerome, Oliviera, Harrison Reed. 5 of those are now established Prem players. On paper that squad looks miles ahead of us now for talent. 

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,789]

1 hour ago, Indy said:

It's not at all the worst squad, in a decade and going back further people appear to forget the Roeder year and post that......we had some ****e even playing the ginger Pele up front as we didn't have a striker, Andy Hughes anyone! utterly rubbish.

This team is absolutely devoid of confidence and has lost all focus, we still in touch of top 6 and so it's a blow not to get promoted but daft to be so dramatic, there are too many on here who started post 2000 when before that we drew a crowd of 13K and had some really poor teams.

Very very hard to argue with any of this. 
 

 

[AJ 1,359]

5 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

1 D Marshall

2 J Otsemobor

4 J Shackell

12 G Doherty

21 R Bertrand

7 L Croft

8 S Clingan

20 D Russell

17 A Gow

23 A Lee

18 D Mooney

Substitutes

25 S Nelson

19 S Lappin

27 C McDonald

22 A Leijer

30 K Smith

Because why not, let's have a little comparison

1 D Marshall = Gunn - Probably not a lot in this one, both good shot toppers, Gunn has pretty good distribution which probably edges it

2 J Otsemobor < Max Aarons - Max every time

4 J Shackell = Andy Omo - Probably not a lot in this

12 G Doherty > Sorensen - in midfield he's better, but I'd rather have ol' Gary

21 R Bertrand > McCallum/Dimi - Arguably Bertrand is better than either of our LBs

7 L Croft > Marquinhos - Crofty probably wins this one, at least you knew he was on the pitch

8 S Clingan < Sara - Sara is a baller, our best player this season by a country mile 

20 D Russell = Hayden - honestly, haven't seen enough from Hayden to suggest he's better than Russell or Clingan.

17 A Gow < Hernandez - Onel every day of the week

23 A Lee < Gibbs - Gibbs has plenty to learn but is showing enough

18 D Mooney < Sargent - I think Sargent edges it, but worth pointing out that Mooney scored 3 in 9, a much better return than Sargents 

Substitutes

25 S Nelson > Byram - The Admiral might not have had the ability, but he had leadership and passion

19 S Lappin > McCallum - king of spain every day of the week!

27 C McDonald = Idah - really is there much difference between these two? Run a lot and not do a lot else looking very much out of their depth! 

22 A Leijer

30 K Smith = Tzolis - honestly, Korey could probably edge this

So overall, worryingly, there's a number of scary similarities.