Overpopulation and sustainability in the UK

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

According to a charity on sustainable population, the target sustainable population of the UK should be 20,000,000. It's currently 67,000,000

https://populationmatters.org/overpopulation-in-the-uk/#:~:text=The population size of the,pass 70 million in 2031.

That's more than three times the resource requirements that our island can sustain and over three times the housing requirements. This chimes in well with the recent David Attenborough series pointing to the crisis in British biodiversity.

We don't have the land and resources to support our population, as evidenced by the persistent export deficit over many years and the need to transition to a service industry economy instead of a manufacturing economy.

We have an ageing population, so left to its own devices, our population can fall, albeit unlikely as low as 20,000,000. With this in mind, should the UK persist in wanting ever-increasing economic growth and seeking to fill labour shortages with immigration, or would it be preferable to aim to manage the economy to diminish in overall size and support a smaller, more sustainable population as older generations die that supports a future UK that can deliver a better quality of life for its people?

Edited March 17, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Until the movement away not to the Metropolitans begins, the idea that we don't have enough to sustain us will roll on. There is ample land. The British obsession with massive gardens and privacy and a Monarch who would like it to stay that way ensures that the larger places just expand outwards towards the agricultural belt and Nimbys.

 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,680]

Dont worry we only import around 400,000 to 500,000 people a year so we only need to build a city the size of Edinburgh every year easily done

Edited March 17, 2023 by cambridgeshire canary

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

55 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Until the movement away not to the Metropolitans begins, the idea that we don't have enough to sustain us will roll on. There is ample land. The British obsession with massive gardens and privacy and a Monarch who would like it to stay that way ensures that the larger places just expand outwards towards the agricultural belt and Nimbys.

 

Agricultural land for intensive farming, necessary to support a large population is not land that delivers anything in terms of biodiversity; quite the opposite, in fact.

UK food production represents 54% of the required production for the consumption requirements of the UK population.  So the UK is dependent on food imports from elsewhere, but still fails to preserve its biodiversity.

Even to make that level, we've seen a 41% decline in species in the UK since the 1970s as a result of diminishing areas for wildlife.

The pandemic illustrated starkly that those in the countryside suffered far less from mental health problems than those in cities; we need space.

The main incentive for more younger people, be it through reproduction or immigration, is for more economic activity, but economic activity should only be a reflection of what's needed to sustain people, not as some end in itself in a never-ending quest to reach new heights; that capitalist tenet of maximisation is at odds with the needs of reaching a sustainable compromise with nature.

The question that runs from this is whether its in the interests for the UK to incentivise older people with the means to emigrate from the UK? For example, exempt those moving abroad from paying stamp duty if they sell their house as a carrot. Putting in place measures to ensure healthcare support in popular destination countries?

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

11 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Agricultural land for intensive farming, necessary to support a large population is not land that delivers anything in terms of biodiversity; quite the opposite, in fact.

UK food production represents 54% of the required production for the consumption requirements of the UK population.  So the UK is dependent on food imports from elsewhere, but still fails to preserve its biodiversity.

Even to make that level, we've seen a 41% decline in species in the UK since the 1970s as a result of diminishing areas for wildlife.

The pandemic illustrated starkly that those in the countryside suffered far less from mental health problems than those in cities; we need space.

The main incentive for more younger people, be it through reproduction or immigration, is for more economic activity, but economic activity should only be a reflection of what's needed to sustain people, not as some end in itself in a never-ending quest to reach new heights; that capitalist tenet of maximisation is at odds with the needs of reaching a sustainable compromise with nature.

The question that runs from this is whether its in the interests for the UK to incentivise older people with the means to emigrate from the UK? For example, exempt those moving abroad from paying stamp duty if they sell their house as a carrot. Putting in place measures to ensure healthcare support in popular destination countries?

 

There is plenty of space. Its just not where people want it.

Why do we in the South West have so many rapeseed fields? For cosmetics obviously. Absolute nonsense.

Until we prioritise there will always be a ntion that the market dictates rather than necessity. MacDonalds may be very popular but is totally unecessary in the scheme of things. 

[A Load of Squit 5,135]

It's coming sometime and maybe

I give a wrong time, stop a traffic line

Your future dream is a shopping scheme.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

There is plenty of space. Its just not where people want it.

Why do we in the South West have so many rapeseed fields? For cosmetics obviously. Absolute nonsense.

Until we prioritise there will always be a ntion that the market dictates rather than necessity. MacDonalds may be very popular but is totally unecessary in the scheme of things. 

Rapeseed has a few more uses than that. Edible oils, animal feed, and biodiesel for a start.

When you start talking about cutting back to what's necessary to survive then you're implicitly arguing that it's better to cram more people in with a lower quality of life. What's the point of that?

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,182]

According to wiki The UK is in 52nd place of most densely populated countries 

1 - I like wiki, but don't always trust some of its pages of statistics 

2 - Some of the territories above the UK are not really comparable 

That said, a few are. If The UK has a problem, what about Japan, Netherlands & Belgium? If there's one thing I've learned in life it's that very little stays the same. As new challenges present themselves, then we need to look for different solutions 

Edit - 52nd in "main table", 15th in the table below it

Edited March 17, 2023 by How I Wrote Elastic Man

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Rapeseed has a few more uses than that. Edible oils, animal feed, and biodiesel for a start.

When you start talking about cutting back to what's necessary to survive then you're implicitly arguing that it's better to cram more people in with a lower quality of life. What's the point of that?

I never said survival mode. For a start, eat seasonal. Is it really necessary to have Sprouts watching Wimbledon and Strawberries watching the King's Speech? There is very little that is luxury food in the UK anymore.

Edible oils cause their own problems. Biodiesel and yet we are moving to electric. And rapeseed in animal feed is not very nutritional.

Start planting proper food in fields. But of course, many can't be bothered because its easier doing what they are doing now.

We haven't had meat since the weekend at home. We aren't vegetarians but have had some lovely meals with just good old natural vegetables.

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,182]

Interesting that Rwanda has nearly double the population density of the UK 

🤔

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

29 minutes ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

Interesting that Rwanda has nearly double the population density of the UK 

🤔

Other governments can worry about their own overpopulation issues.

[Herman 9,717]

6 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Dont worry we only import around 400,000 to 500,000 people a year so we only need to build a city the size of Edinburgh every year easily done

Don't worry, a vote for David Cameron will bring these numbers down. Oh.....

Don't worry, a vote for Brexit will bring these numbers down. Oh.....

Don't worry, a vote for Theresa May will bring these numbers down. Oh.....

Don't worry, a vote for Boris Johnson will bring these numbers down. Oh.....

Don't worry, now we've got Brexit done, these numbers will come down. Oh......

Don't worry, a vote for Liz Truss will bring these numbers down. Oh.....

Don't worry, a vote for Rishi Sunak will bring these numbers down. Oh.....

Ever get the feeling you've been had??

 

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,182]

28 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Other governments can worry about their own overpopulation issues.

Sure

I'm pointing out that The UK may not be overpopulated...it, along with other countries, may just need  to introduce policies that that reflect changing times 

Try to make better use of the land, try to reduce unnecessary transportation, etc. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 minute ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

Sure

I'm pointing out that The UK may not be overpopulated...it, along with other countries, may just need  to introduce policies that that reflect changing times 

Try to make better use of the land, try to reduce unnecessary transportation, etc. 

It isn't over populated. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

It isn't over populated. 

About the same population here in France with twice the land.

Just saying.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

1 hour ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

Sure

I'm pointing out that The UK may not be overpopulated...it, along with other countries, may just need  to introduce policies that that reflect changing times 

Try to make better use of the land, try to reduce unnecessary transportation, etc. 

Try try try... that charity isn't winding people up. It's 3.5 times over the limit for self-sufficiency and sustainability. Trying to save that much is like arguing to save the NHS through management restructuring.

It's massively overpopulated. If it was left to the domestic population then it'd sort itself out seeing as couples have 1.75 kids, except apparently you want to take in loads of people from around the world, complete with setting up stations around the world to invite them in, including from parts of the world where the habit is to have way more than 2 kids per couple.

Good luck.

Edited March 17, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,182]

10 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Try try try... that charity isn't winding people up. It's 3.5 times over the limit for self-sufficiency and sustainability. Trying to save that much is like arguing to save the NHS through management restructuring.

It's massively overpopulated. If it was left to the domestic population then it'd sort itself out seeing as couples have 1.75 kids, except apparently you want to take in loads of people from around the world, complete with setting up stations around the world to invite them in, including from parts of the world where the habit is to have way more than 2 kids per couple.

Good luck.

I never said any of that 

I pointed out the irony of sending illegal immigrants to a 3rd country with a population density far in excess of the UK 

Population matters is concerned with the population of the whole world  rather than just the UK, and makes some good points about reducing consumption 

It's a shame you want to turn a valid discussion into a row😔

Good luck 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

1 hour ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

I never said any of that 

I pointed out the irony of sending illegal immigrants to a 3rd country with a population density far in excess of the UK 

Population matters is concerned with the population of the whole world  rather than just the UK, and makes some good points about reducing consumption 

It's a shame you want to turn a valid discussion into a row😔

Good luck 

So far, it's been a battle simply to even get agreement that it's overpopulated in spite of the evidence supporting it. Nothing has yet been offered regarding the original talking points I tried to offer.

The only people going to Rwanda are people who didn't start in the UK in the first place, don't qualify to stay in the UK, won't go voluntarily, and international law blocks us from removing more straightforwardly. It's barely relevant to the thread.

Population matters makes commentary specifically about the state of the UK in the article I shared and that's what I tried to start a conversation about. Attenborough's recent comments play into that.

If a national megacity with people of wide ranges of cultures at each others throats with no nature whatsoever and starving from food shortages because it's dependent on imports as the world goes to hell is your aspiration for your kids then more power to you.

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[A Load of Squit 5,135]

20 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Dont worry we only import around 400,000 to 500,000 people a year so we only need to build a city the size of Edinburgh every year easily done

Can you explain why a city the size of Edinburgh doesn't get built every year?

I'm sure we'd of noticed if it had.

[ron obvious 1,501]

I can recommend P J O'Rourke's All The Trouble In The World to give some perspective on population, particularly a chapter entitled something like: Way Too Many Of You, Just The Right Number of Me.

Also this map's interesting

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_population_density_in_England_as_at_the_2011_census.png

Edited March 18, 2023 by ron obvious

[cambridgeshire canary 6,680]

28 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

Can you explain why a city the size of Edinburgh doesn't get built every year?

I'm sure we'd of noticed if it had.

Beacause one Edinburgh is bad enough

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

1 hour ago, ron obvious said:

I can recommend P J O'Rourke's All The Trouble In The World to give some perspective on population, particularly a chapter entitled something like: Way Too Many Of You, Just The Right Number of Me.

Also this map's interesting

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_population_density_in_England_as_at_the_2011_census.png

I like the sound of that.

Funnily enough, that's exactly the same name as another Norwich fan I used to work with many years ago when I was still in Norwich.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

All environmental problems we face can be mitigated when there are fewer of us. And they are exaggerated when there are more of us.

Practically any objection to the notion of overpopulation seems to stem from an overly human-centric approach without wondering much about other flora/fauna, and also from thinking that Third World countries won't develop and take on similar levels of consumption that we do - which stresses resources even further.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

14 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

About the same population here in France with twice the land.

Just saying.

But that doesn't mean the UK is over populated.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

1 minute ago, keelansgrandad said:

But that doesn't mean the UK is over populated.

You live in Cornwall. Spend a month in Kent and get back to me on how you feel about it.

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,182]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

So far, it's been a battle simply to even get agreement that it's overpopulated in spite of the evidence supporting it. Nothing has yet been offered regarding the original talking points I tried to offer.

The only people going to Rwanda are people who didn't start in the UK in the first place, don't qualify to stay in the UK, won't go voluntarily, and international law blocks us from removing more straightforwardly. It's barely relevant to the thread.

Population matters makes commentary specifically about the state of the UK in the article I shared and that's what I tried to start a conversation about. Attenborough's recent comments play into that.

If a national megacity with people of wide ranges of cultures at each others throats with no nature whatsoever and starving from food shortages because it's dependent on imports as the world goes to hell is your aspiration for your kids then more power to you.

 

maybe it was my fault for mentioning Rwanda

Back to the point, I don´t agree the planet is "overpopulated". I believe our current population presents some challenges, so here are 2 ideas

1 - cut back on meat consumption

2 - cut back on needless transportation by making it easier to access services locally

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

I'm surprised overpopulation isn't blatantly obvious just when taking the notion of World Overshoot Day (consumption within countries of renewable resources within a year) into account, frankly. And that's without taking the needs of flora/fauna into consideration.

Edited March 18, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You live in Cornwall. Spend a month in Kent and get back to me on how you feel about it.

I know Kent very well. My Daughter in Law is from there. It is so overpopulated that she could only have three horses in the fields.

And this was about 100 yards from their house. The village of Meopham. Not everywhere is Dover.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

2 minutes ago, How I Wrote Elastic Man said:

maybe it was my fault for mentioning Rwanda

Back to the point, I don´t agree the planet is "overpopulated". I believe our current population presents some challenges, so here are 2 ideas

1 - cut back on meat consumption

2 - cut back on needless transportation by making it easier to access services locally

What if people don't want to cut back on meat consumption?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

9 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You live in Cornwall. Spend a month in Kent and get back to me on how you feel about it.

So what are you saying? Why isn't there more people in Cornwall? Suburbia only started increasing because so many of the largest places were bomb damaged during WWII. Instead of taking people to the work, take the work to people.

When I lived in Wellington NZ, there was a plan to take certain industries to the suburbs. The chaos that results in leaving everything to the large cities has led to soaring house prices, Emission free zones, endless hours on public transport and road ruined by haulage rather than using the railways.