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Manager in defending player he picked shocker....... 

He doesn't need to dig Krul out, he knows he's made an error. 

 

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Managers will seldom publicly critise individual players so I'm not paying much attention to that.

Kicking is a facet of Krul's game that is simply awful. If we are to continue to play out from the back then he has to be replaced.

To be fair Hanley is equally culpable.

Edited by Capt. Pants

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44 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

I agree with him, we shouldn't change everything just because of one mistake, unfortunately, this isn't just one mistake, it's happening with increasing frequency...

It was a huge gaffe given the match it was - and it's not even that it's happening with more frequency - he has always looked a bit dodgy at passing the ball out.  It's so predictable - he gets the ball, waits and waits and by the time he has done that the opposition have closed in and give the defenders less space. 

Gunn is a bit better at it - he doesn't delay like Krul does. The way Barden did it in his short run as goalie was brilliant - quick, accurate and no nonsense.

Honestly at this point, if Gunn is fit, then he imo should have the shirt. 

Edited by lake district canary

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We have to accept that neither Krul nor Gunn may be the answer if that's the way we want to play. 

Was Krul this bad when Farke was here? What's changed? He got away with it at Preston but the better teams aren't letting you off the hook.

 

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19 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

We have to accept that neither Krul nor Gunn may be the answer if that's the way we want to play. 

Was Krul this bad when Farke was here? What's changed? He got away with it at Preston but the better teams aren't letting you off the hook.

 

The fact is playing from the back is fine is you have quality throughout your team and especially defence/keeper. We can play this way which is fine, but the personnel really arent fully equipped to play this way and clearly get flustered when any pressure is on them.

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3 minutes ago, jaberry2 said:

We can play this way which is fine, but the personnel really arent fully equipped to play this way and clearly get flustered when any pressure is on them.

Most of the back five have played that way to a title winning standard at this level though.  Surely we just allow a bit more time than a few weeks to start writing them all off? 

Not saying that Hanley, Krul etc. can suddenly become ballers, but there's elements Wagner can put in place to make sure that receiving players make themselves better available, or we play the simple ball first time than pondering over it.... Plus, there's always a safety option to take.

Edited by Google Bot
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1 minute ago, jaberry2 said:

The fact is playing from the back is fine is you have quality throughout your team and especially defence/keeper. We can play this way which is fine, but the personnel really arent fully equipped to play this way and clearly get flustered when any pressure is on them.

We're not I agree, and having Hanley on his wrong side doesn't help as if the LB is marked (and they will be) he has to move the ball to his right towards our goal, which from my seat looks bloody scary!

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That’s the issue isn’t it, Farke played out the back, had Tettey & Skipp to help shore up that CDM both were excellent at Championship level. We could play through to Cantwell & Buendia who always wanted the ball.

We don’t have that level of skill in this squad, noticeable against the best high press and energy of an excellent Burnley side, unlike the low energy unfit ****e of Smith for the past 12 months we’re behind the best teams in this league.

As pointed out we have made double the mistakes of Rotherham we’re prone to it and costing us goals, even before Krull’s howler McLean made a mistake which nearly lead to a goal, after that all he did was look to pass it back or pick it up on the edge of the box and hit a 40 yard pass which didn’t work.

We really do need to cut out the errors but I’m not sure the skill set of this current squad can play that way, maybe given time and confidence we might just cut out the stupid mistakes so frequently!

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8 minutes ago, Indy said:

That’s the issue isn’t it, Farke played out the back, had Tettey & Skipp to help shore up that CDM both were excellent at Championship level. We could play through to Cantwell & Buendia who always wanted the ball.

We don’t have that level of skill in this squad, noticeable against the best high press and energy of an excellent Burnley side, unlike the low energy unfit ****e of Smith for the past 12 months we’re behind the best teams in this league.

As pointed out we have made double the mistakes of Rotherham we’re prone to it and costing us goals, even before Krull’s howler McLean made a mistake which nearly lead to a goal, after that all he did was look to pass it back or pick it up on the edge of the box and hit a 40 yard pass which didn’t work.

We really do need to cut out the errors but I’m not sure the skill set of this current squad can play that way, maybe given time and confidence we might just cut out the stupid mistakes so frequently!

Yes I'm sure that's a big part of the problem.

Having said that Gunn's ability with his feet is far ahead of Krul's. I'm not saying he's a world beater at it but Krul has a long standing problem which isn't going to suddenly improve. As for the other positions, they're s going to be much harder to improve. Personally I think Gibbs does a decent job at making himself available and not losing possession but other than him I don't see too many options.

Edited by Hairy Canary

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8 minutes ago, Indy said:

We really do need to cut out the errors but I’m not sure the skill set of this current squad can play that way, maybe given time and confidence we might just cut out the stupid mistakes so frequently!

Watching the Burnley match our lack of movement off the ball was pretty shabby in comparison, so many players allowing themselves to be blocked makes you wonder how much they want to take the ball in those defensive areas while being pressed.   

I know Kenny gets a lot of stick, but he's always making himself available and calling for it.   But he's not of the same ilk of Tettey or Skipp - they just had the habit of being in the right place at the right time.

Edited by Google Bot
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1 hour ago, Capt. Pants said:

We have to accept that neither Krul nor Gunn may be the answer if that's the way we want to play. 

Was Krul this bad when Farke was here? What's changed? He got away with it at Preston but the better teams aren't letting you off the hook.

 

Gunn is fine at it. Krul is not.

There are a number of issues with how we attempt to play it out from the back. Krul's poor kicking is one of them. Another is that the centre backs (mainly Hanley but also Gibson when he plays) take to long to move the ball and play or or two passes to many so we get penned in. The other is not having midfielders who drop deep for the ball and are capable receiving it and truning to then progress the move forward. We are fine when teams sit of us (like Preston did) but as soon as someone presses Kenny, the full backs get penned in and we caugh up the ball too easily. That stat sky were showing about errors leading to shots was ridiculous.

Back to Krul,  however, the issue is that it was not a one off mistake. he plays us into trouble at least once in almost every game. he's certainly done it in every game since Gunn was unfairly dropped when Wagner came in. I think statistically Gunn was one of if not the best performing keeper in the championship. It was ridiulous to drop him in my view. 

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5 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Another is that the centre backs (mainly Hanley but also Gibson when he plays) take to long to move the ball and play or or two passes to many so we get penned in.

What I don't get is that the pass is on as soon as they receive the ball and they look at the free player... Then they turn, look the other way, then panic and then turn back and play a loose ball to original receiver who's now got company themselves.

It's like they're trying to do something clever, when all that is needed is simplistic spreading of the ball at a tempo that keeps everything moving fluid.

Edited by Google Bot
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27 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Gunn is fine at it. Krul is not.

There are a number of issues with how we attempt to play it out from the back. Krul's poor kicking is one of them. Another is that the centre backs (mainly Hanley but also Gibson when he plays) take to long to move the ball and play or or two passes to many so we get penned in. The other is not having midfielders who drop deep for the ball and are capable receiving it and truning to then progress the move forward. We are fine when teams sit of us (like Preston did) but as soon as someone presses Kenny, the full backs get penned in and we caugh up the ball too easily. That stat sky were showing about errors leading to shots was ridiculous.

Back to Krul,  however, the issue is that it was not a one off mistake. he plays us into trouble at least once in almost every game. he's certainly done it in every game since Gunn was unfairly dropped when Wagner came in. I think statistically Gunn was one of if not the best performing keeper in the championship. It was ridiulous to drop him in my view. 

'Nail on head'. Krul has these gaffes in his make up which is really unfortunate considering he's a great keeper otherwise. Problem is his indecision is now eroding the confidence of his teammates and that's a very unhealthy cocktail to have.  

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2 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

Krul has these gaffes in his make up which is really unfortunate considering he's a great keeper

Gunn was also awful when coming in to the team though, he was kicking straight off the field.  I don't think he's all that better than people are making out, but then it's hard to judge as we've not seen him in this setup yet.

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14 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Gunn was also awful when coming in to the team though, he was kicking straight off the field.  I don't think he's all that better than people are making out, but then it's hard to judge as we've not seen him in this setup yet.

The Gunn thing is hilarious, people are making out he's the next Buffon. 

He's 27 and should have played 250-300 career games by now; there's a reason why he hasn't.

And there's a reason why Southampton barely used him in the Prem. He's a bang-average keeper, and Wagner sees this.

Even if Krul is dropped and/or moved on, we need a new keeper. 

Edited by alex_ncfc
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9 minutes ago, alex_ncfc said:

The Gunn thing is hilarious, people are making out he's the next Buffon. 

He's 27 and should have played 250-300 career games by now, there's a reason why he hasn't.

And there's a reason why Southampton barely used him in the Prem. He's a bang-average keeper, and Wagner sees this.

Even if Krul is dropped and/or moved on, we need a new keeper. 

Im sorry but this post makes no sense. Before he was dropped/injured he was the championships best keeper which was supported by many people. I dont think anyone is making out that he is a world class keeper like Buffon, the fickle nature of many on this forum jump on anyone and change their mind after one mistake by a player, but I think what is quite clear (to me anyway) Gunn is a better keeper than Krul. Krul is a good shot stopper but his other attributes other than command of area are quite poor for a keeper. Gunn was starting to show consistency and kicking on when in the team recently. He is 27 which is still very young for a keeper.

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It was a howler no doubt. Anything DW said we already know because DF played it that way. So lets move on from that mistake and say if your judgement is clouded then its safety first. In this case it was nothing to do with tactics or which player was most suited like Skipp. He just kicked it straight to the opposition.

I think he needs to practice being more accurate with his longer balls. Not the ones to the opposition half but ones to the full backs or wide midfield players. Ederson is a case in point of how you can play the ball accurately. In fact Angus has a Dad who was renowned as one of the most accurate.

I think the more pressing item is how much better Burnley were than us.

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Wagner is completely right not to critercise Krul, it is not personal and Tim will know. 

I think if we are going to play out from the back Angus is much better, he strikes the ball cleaner, consequently his range of passing is better, he is not perfect, if I have a critercism of him with his feet it is that he can panic and choose the longer out ball too often, which we often lose.  

As a set of fans we aren't patient and we are critical, Angus and Tim are good keepers.

If we are going to play out from the back like Brighton or Man City Tim can't do it, and neither can Grant.  Therefore we either play players in our squad who are better at it, or we go long.  These decisions are the reason Wagner is at the wheel.  OTBC

The comments saying Angus or Tim are awful are just ridiculous.

 

Edited by Newtopia

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The video of Wagner''s at the post game presser on this subject was really telling. Wagner had to work so hard with his answer to Paddy's direct question on Krul's mistake, he was very ponderous in his reply. He was trying desperately not to land Krul in it, but also avoid openly admitting he as Coach had been out thought. So whilst Krul played an absolute howler, as KG said the real question was why were Burnley so much better at the press than us, whilst we still looked more likely to create a goal?

Ben Lee's analysis on the Pink'Un app today explains this. Wagner was truly outfoxed. Our players stuck to what they had been told to do, but Burnley's press was more effective than we hoped. People have commented about Sara's invisibility in that first half, Ben Lee explains that he was being instructed to mark one of Burnley's deeper lying players. Unfortunately this meant that Kenny did not have a simple out ball more often than not (perhaps explaining his panic early on in the game). Krul then had a mind**** moment when he thought he could see a way out of the Burnley press which wasn't there. As others have said such instances have become a part of Krul's game, as has Kenny's panic. Norwich's press began to fall apart once Burnley took the lead, becoming so desperate that many players lost their discipline, chasing horizontally rather than staying in vertical pressing patterns as the game wore on.

Overall Burnley didn't have to do much more than force Norwich into errors, or wait until Norwich made one (those corners ... 🤦🏻‍♂️).

Barnes et all frequently bullied Norwich players into playing safe and Norwich's confidence ebbed away. Burnley were just too good at the dark arts. Every time the ball was there to be won in the air the Burnley player vying for the ball would nudge the Norwich player before take off.  Every run Norwich players attempted to go on, a little dig in the ribs from the Burnley marker on the other side of the view for the ref knocked the Norwich player out of their stride.  Whereas Norwich looked so naïve as they tried to stop Burnley playing, definitely earning their bookings because they failed to hide their intentions. A better ref would have been a bit more sussed and evened things up, but that is the way better teams win decisions and matches.
 
If anything it was a very Dyche-like performance by Burnley; despite the ease of their victory, did they actually create an opportunity from free flowing football in open play? I was disappointed in that respect with Kompany , but he has learnt a few lessons from Pep in the dark arts and is ably assisted by Bellers who is a past master at winding up opposition players.
 
Wagner has to impart some of these skills to the squad, but there is also a real need for proper leadership on the pitch. Your skipper should be leading by example in this respect, Hanley doesn't cut it for me. His only dark art is to fall over a ball as he runs toward the corner flag (its becoming comical now and he will be caught soon and it will prove disastrous), we need more accuracy from him in the air and we need him to instil real fight and passion into his colleagues if he is to retain that captaincy. But I just don't think he is capable ...
 
There's a lot to be done, but thankfully we don't face a well drilled outfit like Burnley every week.
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1 hour ago, alex_ncfc said:

The Gunn thing is hilarious, people are making out he's the next Buffon. 

He's 27 and should have played 250-300 career games by now; there's a reason why he hasn't.

And there's a reason why Southampton barely used him in the Prem. He's a bang-average keeper, and Wagner sees this.

Even if Krul is dropped and/or moved on, we need a new keeper. 

He was playing pretty well this season. Makes more saves than Krul and less errors. I really don’t get why Wagner changed it other than perhaps going on reputation and experience. 

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1 hour ago, jaberry2 said:

Im sorry but this post makes no sense. Before he was dropped/injured he was the championships best keeper which was supported by many people. I dont think anyone is making out that he is a world class keeper like Buffon, the fickle nature of many on this forum jump on anyone and change their mind after one mistake by a player, but I think what is quite clear (to me anyway) Gunn is a better keeper than Krul. Krul is a good shot stopper but his other attributes other than command of area are quite poor for a keeper. Gunn was starting to show consistency and kicking on when in the team recently. He is 27 which is still very young for a keeper.

Is Krul a good shot stopper? He’s good when shots are in the air. Not convinced he saves as many as he should when they are low shots. 

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6 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I really don’t get why Wagner changed it other than perhaps going on reputation and experience. 

It's more about creating a hunger and competition for places.  You start with Gunn, where do you go from there?

Start with Krul and you have Gunn to push.  Krul now knows he has a few matches to get this right, before Gunn is recovered from injury.   For a coach thats a great position to have players in.

Edited by Google Bot

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I assume they are practicing playing out from the back in training using our own players to do the press? So strange we looked so rubbish at it, yet it's a system used by Farke and Smith. 

There's something not quite right in our midfield setup. Kenny was way too deep, almost a 3rd CB at times, and Sara and Dowell either not looking or in the wrong position to receive the ball.

Onwards and upwards, better we learn this lesson now whilst there are still games to do something about it.

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3 hours ago, shefcanary said:

The video of Wagner''s at the post game presser on this subject was really telling. Wagner had to work so hard with his answer to Paddy's direct question on Krul's mistake, he was very ponderous in his reply. He was trying desperately not to land Krul in it, but also avoid openly admitting he as Coach had been out thought. So whilst Krul played an absolute howler, as KG said the real question was why were Burnley so much better at the press than us, whilst we still looked more likely to create a goal?

Ben Lee's analysis on the Pink'Un app today explains this. Wagner was truly outfoxed. Our players stuck to what they had been told to do, but Burnley's press was more effective than we hoped. People have commented about Sara's invisibility in that first half, Ben Lee explains that he was being instructed to mark one of Burnley's deeper lying players. Unfortunately this meant that Kenny did not have a simple out ball more often than not (perhaps explaining his panic early on in the game). Krul then had a mind**** moment when he thought he could see a way out of the Burnley press which wasn't there. As others have said such instances have become a part of Krul's game, as has Kenny's panic. Norwich's press began to fall apart once Burnley took the lead, becoming so desperate that many players lost their discipline, chasing horizontally rather than staying in vertical pressing patterns as the game wore on.

Overall Burnley didn't have to do much more than force Norwich into errors, or wait until Norwich made one (those corners ... 🤦🏻‍♂️).

Barnes et all frequently bullied Norwich players into playing safe and Norwich's confidence ebbed away. Burnley were just too good at the dark arts. Every time the ball was there to be won in the air the Burnley player vying for the ball would nudge the Norwich player before take off.  Every run Norwich players attempted to go on, a little dig in the ribs from the Burnley marker on the other side of the view for the ref knocked the Norwich player out of their stride.  Whereas Norwich looked so naïve as they tried to stop Burnley playing, definitely earning their bookings because they failed to hide their intentions. A better ref would have been a bit more sussed and evened things up, but that is the way better teams win decisions and matches.
 
If anything it was a very Dyche-like performance by Burnley; despite the ease of their victory, did they actually create an opportunity from free flowing football in open play? I was disappointed in that respect with Kompany , but he has learnt a few lessons from Pep in the dark arts and is ably assisted by Bellers who is a past master at winding up opposition players.
 
Wagner has to impart some of these skills to the squad, but there is also a real need for proper leadership on the pitch. Your skipper should be leading by example in this respect, Hanley doesn't cut it for me. His only dark art is to fall over a ball as he runs toward the corner flag (its becoming comical now and he will be caught soon and it will prove disastrous), we need more accuracy from him in the air and we need him to instil real fight and passion into his colleagues if he is to retain that captaincy. But I just don't think he is capable ...
 
There's a lot to be done, but thankfully we don't face a well drilled outfit like Burnley every week.

While I agree with a lot of this, the fact is that Wagner has only had a few weeks to work with the squad.  We saw lots of problems against Coventry, it was just that some of our errors weren't punished (some were though, fortunately after we'd scored 3 !) and we were able to take the game to them more because they are not as strong a side as Burnley.  Even against Preston the 4-0 scoreline was distinctly flattering IMO.  In both those games we deserved to win, but you could see issues that need work.


The difference with Burnley is that they are the best side in the division and have a very effective combination of quality players and streetwise/cynical approach.  And then we gave them a suicidal opening which put them ahead very early on, it's not surprising we were rattled.  To our credit we came back into it pretty well towards the end of the first half.  Had Dowell's shot go in rather than hitting the keeper's leg, it could have been different.

 

Ironically it was in the second half when the game was much more even that we conceded a couple of poor goals from set pieces.  As you've pointed out, they didn't create much from open play, the damage was largely self-inflicted.


So I'm not as downbeat as many on here.  As I said before the game, the true test for us this season is not the games against Burnley/Sheff Utd, it's the rest of the games that will decide whether or not we get in the playoffs.

 

I totally agree with your last line - a lot to do, but you don't play the best team in the division every week.

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