Should the Tower of London be Demolished?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

Of recent years, we've seen successful campaigns to remove statutes of people who have contributed to British society for historic involvement in slavery. This week, Welsh Rugby Union has made a conscious effort to suppress the playing of the Tom Jones hit Delilah for supposedly glorifying the murder of women, in spite of statements by Tom Jones that this takes the song too literally.

More than a hundred people have been beheaded historically at the Tower of London. Is celebrating capital punishment in this manner by both preserving the site and seeking to profit by encouraging tourists to go there unacceptable for a society that rejects capital punishment?

Edited February 4, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie
Correction on number of people beheaded.

[dylanisabaddog 4,871]

22 executed inside the Tower 

100 executed outside 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

4 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

22 executed inside the Tower 

100 executed outside 

Corrected

[The Real Buh 3,423]

Towers are essentially Penises of the sky

coincidence?

 

[Herman 9,717]

[benchwarmer 624]

29 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

22 executed inside the Tower 

100 executed outside 

Let's get this in proportion.

According to Wikipedia there were 7 executions in the Tower pre-20th century and 12 for espionage during WW1 and WW2.

112 were executed on Tower Hill over 400 years.

In a single year March 2021-22 in the UK, 125 women were killed by men.

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by benchwarmer

[dylanisabaddog 4,871]

14 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

Towers are essentially Penises of the sky

coincidence?

 

No one likes a show off Buh! 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

1 hour ago, benchwarmer said:

Let's get this in proportion.

According to Wikipedia there were 7 executions in the Tower pre-20th century and 12 for espionage during WW1 and WW2.

112 were executed on Tower Hill over 400 years.

In a single year March 2021-22 in the UK, 125 women were killed by men.

 

Are you suggesting that some of those women might not have been killed if Tom Jones hadn't written Delilah, or is it simply the case that Tom Jones' lyrics reflect things that happen anyway? Is it healthy to suppress art simply because it reflects the uglier side of human nature?

Should we prohibit the broadcast of depictions of rape and murder in drama  on free to air television in line with this philosophy?

Furthermore, where does proportion come into it? What proportion of the population spent much time thinking about the lyrics of Delilah before one or two people chose to highlight it and make an issue of it in 2014?

British citizens such as Shamima Begum have been accessories to brutal beheadings elsewhere. Was the awareness of the acceptance of beheading in our past and the willingness of the state to embrace it by profiting from tourism related to it a contributing factor to her radicalisation and willingness to accept this brutality by ISIS?

Edited February 4, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[benchwarmer 624]

25 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Are you suggesting that some of those women might not have been killed if Tom Jones hadn't written Delilah, or is it simply the case that Tom Jones' lyrics reflect things that happen anyway? Is it healthy to suppress art simply because it reflects the uglier side of human nature?

Should we prohibit the broadcast of depictions of rape and murder in drama  on free to air television in line with this philosophy?

Furthermore, where does proportion come into it? What proportion of the population spent much time thinking about the lyrics of Delilah before one or two people chose to highlight it and make an issue of it in 2014?

One thing is clear.  Despite the title of this thread, your OP has nothing to do with the Tower of London and everything to do with Delilah. 

If it looks like a troll and sounds like a troll . . .

[Midlands Yellow 3,941]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

22 executed inside the Tower 

100 executed outside 

Tower Green and Tower Hill. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

6 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

One thing is clear.  Despite the title of this thread, your OP has nothing to do with the Tower of London and everything to do with Delilah. 

If it looks like a troll and sounds like a troll . . .

You say that, but most people would have dismissed arguments to suppress popular art in Welsh culture as trolling seven years ago; now it's celebrated policy of Welsh Rugby Union.

How do we know that those who raised the argument about Tom Jones weren't simply trolling? I think these questions about the Tower of London are no less legitimate questions than any of the others reshaping our society in the face of strong public objection.

Edited February 4, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

No. It is one of the most visited attractions in the UK. All foreign revenue is welcome. And the biggest attraction inside the walls are the Crown Jewels which are symbols of even more attitudes that are not accepted in general.

Capital punishment was widespread when it was built of course. And maybe if its occupants came back they might give us a reason for it. You can't really have a balanced argument without Henry VIII present.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

12 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

No. It is one of the most visited attractions in the UK. All foreign revenue is welcome. And the biggest attraction inside the walls are the Crown Jewels which are symbols of even more attitudes that are not accepted in general.

Capital punishment was widespread when it was built of course. And maybe if its occupants came back they might give us a reason for it. You can't really have a balanced argument without Henry VIII present.

Very good points, but is this philosophically consistent with the decision to remove monuments commemorating people who contributed to British society in other ways because of their involvement with slavery, in spite of slavery being an accepted practise in Britain in their lifetimes? I stress the importance of the need of philosophical consistency here, because your arguments are in line with those used to justify the dismantling of those memorials and statues; the arguments were not considered a good enough defence to allow them to stand.

Edited February 4, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[benchwarmer 624]

33 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You say that, but most people would have dismissed arguments to suppress popular art in Welsh culture as trolling seven years ago; now it's celebrated policy of Welsh Rugby Union.

How do we know that those who raised the argument about Tom Jones weren't simply trolling? I think these questions about the Tower of London are no less legitimate questions than any of the others reshaping our society in the face of strong public objection.

There's nothing particularly Welsh about Delilah. It was written by two English composers. Tom Jones is a Welsh icon, and "Green Green Grass of Home" sung at the Principality Stadium before an international rugby match would be much more appropriate to the occasion.

Edited February 4, 2023 by benchwarmer

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

3 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

There's nothing particularly Welsh about Delilah. It was written by two English composers. Tom Jones is a Welsh icon, but "Green Green Grass of Home" would be far more appropriate.

That's irrelevant to the wider point. Welsh Rugby fans chose Delilah as a de facto anthem.

Edited February 4, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

26 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Very good points, but is this philosophically consistent with the decision to remove monuments commemorating people who contributed to British society in other ways because of their involvement with slavery, in spite of slavery being an accepted practise in Britain in their lifetimes? I stress the importance of the need of philosophical consistency here, because your arguments are in line with those used to justify the dismantling of those memorials and statues; the arguments were not considered a good enough defence to allow them to stand.

True. But the statues were erected a long time ago when slavery was accepted. They were a tribute because at the time the recipient of the honour had done some good for his community.

So yes, they may have been slave traders but it was accepted and the community they lived in gave it little or no thought because their lives had improved.

Now we think differently thank goodness. But that does not obscure the fact that many of those protesting their existence may still be benefitting from what happened centuries ago however indirectly.

They are symbols. They are why there is still the camp at Auschwitz. They are a reminder of mans inhumanity to his fellows. And I would wager that the majority, an important word in this issue, of those imprisoned there want it left to remind us all, now and in the future.

Should Rock and Roll have been played in the movie Joker because its singer was in prison serving a sentence for paedophilia? The movie won an Oscar and that scene was intrinsic to the movie. No. Glitter or Gadd was convicted and the world should remember that.

However distasteful history or our own memories are, there has to be the dark side thrust at us.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

30 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

True. But the statues were erected a long time ago when slavery was accepted. They were a tribute because at the time the recipient of the honour had done some good for his community.

So yes, they may have been slave traders but it was accepted and the community they lived in gave it little or no thought because their lives had improved.

Now we think differently thank goodness. But that does not obscure the fact that many of those protesting their existence may still be benefitting from what happened centuries ago however indirectly.

They are symbols. They are why there is still the camp at Auschwitz. They are a reminder of mans inhumanity to his fellows. And I would wager that the majority, an important word in this issue, of those imprisoned there want it left to remind us all, now and in the future.

Should Rock and Roll have been played in the movie Joker because its singer was in prison serving a sentence for paedophilia? The movie won an Oscar and that scene was intrinsic to the movie. No. Glitter or Gadd was convicted and the world should remember that.

However distasteful history or our own memories are, there has to be the dark side thrust at us.

 

Very good points. At the time the statues campaign was initiated, it was suggested to add plaques at sites of statues acknowledging the practise of slavery and the subjects' role in it, along with expressing modern regret for it; this would be in line with the German philosophy over Auschwitz, but this approach was rejected in favour of simply removing the statues.

The decision over the statues does set a precedent regarding how we should approach the Tower of London as a monument to state violence against its subjects, which leads to the next question: Is our approach to historical monuments and buildings that raise uncomfortable points about our past wrong or is the German approach wrong?

Edited February 4, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

The German approach is spot on - in fact, their Haus der Geschichte der Bundesrepublik Deutschland in Bonn was well worth the visit in terms of a pretty dispassionate look at the development of Germany. Not been in over 20 years though - went there in my teens and also went there when I was in Bonn on a placement.

[Barbe bleu 815]

1 hour ago, benchwarmer said:

There's nothing particularly Welsh about Delilah. It was written by two English composers. Tom Jones is a Welsh icon, and "Green Green Grass of Home" sung at the Principality Stadium before an international rugby match would be much more appropriate to the occasion.

Green green grass has absolutely nothing to do with Wales or the Welsh. It would be a bizarre choice of replacement.

 

 

[Barbe bleu 815]

3 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

22 executed inside the Tower 

100 executed outside 

This tells me that we should knock london down and keep the tower

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

1 minute ago, Barbe bleu said:

Green green grass has absolutely nothing to do with Wales or the Welsh. It would be a bizarre choice of replacement.

 

 

Yma o Hyd's better. That is an absolute tune.

[benchwarmer 624]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

That's irrelevant to the wider point. Welsh Rugby fans chose Delilah as a de facto anthem.

It's sung by a section of the crowd.  Sad isn't it when they have the best national anthem in the world - "Hen Wlad fy Nhadau" (with "Flower of Scotland") a close second. Stirs the emotions even if you aren't Welsh.  Have a listen on YouTube.

It's a bit like England rugby fans singing "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" with its echoes of slavery. Irrelevant to the occasion, and if "God Save The King" wasn't such a dirge perhaps they wouldn't need to. (England really needs its own national anthem, but that's another issue.)  I wouldn't ban it though, and if the Welsh RU thinks banning "Delilah" will make people believe they're serious about institutional misgyny they're very much mistaken.

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by benchwarmer

[The Real Buh 3,423]

At the end of the day, all that matters is Norfolk 

everywhere else can swivel 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

11 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

The German approach is spot on - in fact, their Haus der Geschichte der Bundesrepublik Deutschland in Bonn was well worth the visit in terms of a pretty dispassionate look at the development of Germany. Not been in over 20 years though - went there in my teens and also went there when I was in Bonn on a placement.

In that case, if the German approach is right, how is removing historic statues or other monuments with negative historical associations, regardless of popular support, defensible? How is influential bodies actively offending their supporters by pointedly rejecting  elements of popular culture for specious reasoning acceptable?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

7 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

It's sung by a section of the crowd.  Sad isn't it when they have the best national anthem in the world - "Hen Wlad fy Nhadau" (with "Flower of Scotland") a close second. Stirs the emotions even if you aren't Welsh.  Have a listen on YouTube.

It's a bit like England rugby fans singing "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" with its echoes of slavery. Irrelevant to the occasion, and if "God Save The King" wasn't such a dirge perhaps they wouldn't need to. (England really needs its own national anthem, but that's another issue.)  I wouldn't ban it though, and if the Welsh FA thinks banning "Delilah" will make people believe they're serious about institutional misgyny they're very much mistaken.

 

No amount of whataboutism deflects from the point that Delilah was adopted by fans and widely accepted by fans and is the song that Welsh Rugby  Union's authorities chose to put in the spotlight on the back of campaigning by a minority on specious grounds. Where is there evidence of any popular support for Welsh Rugby's decision or the reasoning behind it?

Welsh Rugby Union made a point of drawing attention to the decision. There was nothing stopping them quietly instructing future performers not to perform it without making any public statement about it. They felt it was desirable to bring it to public attention.

Edited February 4, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Barbe bleu 815]

1 minute ago, benchwarmer said:

It's sung by a section of the crowd.  Sad isn't it when they have the best national anthem in the world - "Hen Wlad fy Nhadau" (with "Flower of Scotland") a close second. Stirs the emotions even if you aren't Welsh.  Have a listen on YouTube.

It's a bit like England rugby fans singing "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" with its echoes of slavery. Irrelevant to the occasion, and if "God Save The King" wasn't such a dirge perhaps they wouldn't need to. (England really needs its own national anthem, but that's another issue.)  I wouldn't ban it though, and if the Welsh FA thinks banning "Delilah" will make people believe they're serious about institutional misgyny they're very much mistaken.

 

The is ban delilah thing is cynical window dressing designed to create a false impression and to deflect from real questions  being asked.  People ask what 'woke' is and why it is wrong; Here is an example. 

I'm not sure I can agree with the rest though.  The crowd will sing land of my fathers with gusto, even if its only the gwlad, gwlad part.   We might only have one song but the passion  of Wales rugby requiress a song book, you can't replace delilah with a song that's already in that book.

The history of swing low is a bit contested.  the song itself has roots in slavery but it sure doesn't glorify the practice. It's adoption by the  england crowd as song #1 is a little suspect if viewed through today's more cynical eyes but it was part of rugby culture at that time and was relevant.  Bit crude if you do the actions though...

 

 

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

6 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

In that case, if the German approach is right, how is removing historic statues or other monuments with negative historical associations, regardless of popular support, defensible? How is influential bodies actively offending their supporters by pointedly rejecting  elements of popular culture for specious reasoning acceptable?

How is asking other entertainers to step in line and not to perform a song that they themselves stopped performing eight years ago, yet seemingly allowing fans to sing what they please, a "pointed rejection"?

Removing statues is fine, that's precisely what a museum is for. Not to mention a good museum will give them far more context.

[king canary 7,580]

My wife and son are there this afternoon so if we could hold of until tomorrow I'd appreciate it.

[benchwarmer 624]

28 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

The is ban delilah thing is cynical window dressing designed to create a false impression and to deflect from real questions  being asked.  People ask what 'woke' is and why it is wrong; Here is an example. 

 

Thank you, that's the clearest explanation of 'woke' that I've seen.

Edited February 4, 2023 by benchwarmer

[Herman 9,717]

25 minutes ago, king canary said:

My wife and son are there this afternoon so if we could hold of until tomorrow I'd appreciate it.

Their apologism for state sanctioned murder won't go unnoticed. Harrumph!