I was convinced Krul would go...

[Michael Starr 519]

I was completely convinced Krul was off this January window and felt that him being played ahead of Gunn recently was a golden handshake to give Krul some much needed game time fitness wise for potential suiters. Now that the window is closed, it will be interesting to see if Gunn returns for Burnley. If he does, it really would imply that either a deal fell through or didn't materialise as expected for Timmy.

One things for sure, only if we go up will Krul stay, there's no way we go into next season in tier 2 with Gunn and Krul on the books. We are soo blessed with goalkeepers right now, even our third choice is decent at this level and all three are (were) internationals one way or another.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Michael Starr

[The Bunny 309]

I don't think the club (or any club frankly) would play a second fiddle goalkeeper in multiple league games just to improve his fitness for a potential suiter. It's pretty obvious that Wagner still rates him for whatever reason. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by The Bunny

[Google Bot 3,273]

No way was it a golden handshake.

If you want to create competition for places in a team you setup in a way that the younger less experienced players have a carrot dangled to displaced the older more experienced players.

That's basically what's going on there.  If you start with Gunn, then where's the future/card up the sleeve to play?  We can only move forwards in this arrangement.

[jaberry2 550]

Im still gobsmacked as to why Gunn was dropped for Krul when Wagner came in. Gunn is a far better keeper and the stats prove that fact. Guessing Wagner wanted an older head at the back.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

15 minutes ago, Michael Starr said:

I was completely convinced Krul was off this January window and felt that him being played ahead of Gunn recently was a golden handshake to give Krul some much needed game time fitness wise for potential suiters. Now that the window is closed, it will be interesting to see if Gunn returns for Burnley. If he does, it really would imply that either a deal fell through or didn't materialise as expected for Timmy.

One things for sure, only if we go up will Krul stay, there's no way we go into next season in tier 2 with Gunn and Krul on the books. We are soo blessed with goalkeepers right now, even our third choice is decent at this level and all three are (were) internationals one way or another.

The above IS possible.  It is NOT probable. It is even LESS likely. 

[Google Bot 3,273]

Just now, jaberry2 said:

Gunn is a far better keeper and the stats prove that fact.

Krul - 3 Losses in 15 games (20% Rate)

Gunn - 7 Losses in 13 games  (53% Rate)

I think Wagner knows what he's doing.  Personally I rate Krul over Gunn, he's stronger, more commanding and doesn't fall down like Rob Green when making a save.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,707]

Wonder if he wants to stay? End of the day while I love the guy and he is a top bloke he is clearly a little past his best, about to turn 35 and is probably on quite high wages. I imagine it would be rather hard to shift him on and I don't really see any top flight clubs taking a gamble on buying him to be 1st choice.

And end of the day he's been here a while. He knows our club and players inside out and does seem to be quite the leader both on and off the pitch.

Edited February 2, 2023 by cambridgeshire canary

[shefcanary 2,393]

15 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Wonder if he wants to stay? End of the day while I love the guy and he is a top bloke he is clearly a little past his best, about to turn 35 and is probably on quite high wages. I imagine it would be rather hard to shift him on and I don't really see any top flight clubs taking a gamble on buying him to be 1st choice.

And end of the day he's been here a while. He knows our club and players inside out and does seem to be quite the leader both on and off the pitch.

I think he is very settled in Norfolk now, certainly seems to be well at home and fits in with the Mulbarton Media mafia!

[rock bus 851]

31 minutes ago, jaberry2 said:

Im still gobsmacked as to why Gunn was dropped for Krul when Wagner came in. Gunn is a far better keeper and the stats prove that fact. Guessing Wagner wanted an older head at the back.

I'm far from convinced that Gunn is the better keeper and not sure stats do prove that... happy for you to show which ones do.

They are both decent keepers but with weakness eg Krul's distribution is awful but he commands the area much better. 

Krul at his peak was a far better keeper than Gunn is now, my hope is that Gunn continues to grow and learn from Krul so we have a seamless transition to him either again this season or for next season.

[alex_ncfc 662]

50 minutes ago, jaberry2 said:

Im still gobsmacked as to why Gunn was dropped for Krul when Wagner came in. Gunn is a far better keeper and the stats prove that fact. Guessing Wagner wanted an older head at the back.

What? 😂

The stats do anything BUT that - what's the most important stat to you? For me, it's winning games.

Krul is far better a keeper than Gunn.

[canarybubbles 1,915]

46 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Krul - 3 Losses in 15 games (20% Rate)

Gunn - 7 Losses in 13 games  (53% Rate)

I think Wagner knows what he's doing.  Personally I rate Krul over Gunn, he's stronger, more commanding and doesn't fall down like Rob Green when making a save.

On the other hand, Gunn doesn't make a suicide pass to one of the opposing forwards every other game.

[Greavsy 2,412]

Unless injured Krul will start Saturday. 

 

[jaberry2 550]

Stats suggested not long ago he was by far the best keeper in the championship. How people think Krul is a better goalkeeper is beyond me with his decision making and kicking questionable at best. I just dont understand why you would drop him over Krul, but Wagner has made in my opinion some questionable inclusions but we're winning for the timebeing, so who am I to question. Winning is essentially all that matters.

[king canary 7,603]

4 minutes ago, jaberry2 said:

Stats suggested not long ago he was by far the best keeper in the championship. How people think Krul is a better goalkeeper is beyond me with his decision making and kicking questionable at best. I just dont understand why you would drop him over Krul, but Wagner has made in my opinion some questionable inclusions but we're winning for the timebeing, so who am I to question. Winning is essentially all that matters.

Goalkeepers are notoriously difficult to analyse statistically. Things like command of the area, organisation etc can't be measured. 

I remember years ago Whoscored putting out a table that said the best goalkeeper in the Premier League that season was Vito Mannone at Sunderland, who were rock bottom.

I also remember a few years ago Burnley signed Joe Hart. On highlights you'd see him making loads of great saves but they kept losing. Eventually he was dropped (I think for Nick Pope) and results improved because there is more to being a keeper than making saves.

[king canary 7,603]

1 hour ago, The Bunny said:

I don't the club (or any club frankly) would play a second fiddle goalkeeper in multiple league games just to improve his fitness for a potential suiter. It's pretty obvious that Wagner still rates him for whatever reason. 

Yes, it is a bizarre theory. 

My guess is Wagner likes him due to leadership qualities. Smith talked about the lack of vocal leaders in the team before and maybe Wagner has identified Krul as the best leader for the defence, 

[TheGunnShow 5,938]

8 minutes ago, king canary said:

Goalkeepers are notoriously difficult to analyse statistically. Things like command of the area, organisation etc can't be measured. 

I remember years ago Whoscored putting out a table that said the best goalkeeper in the Premier League that season was Vito Mannone at Sunderland, who were rock bottom.

I also remember a few years ago Burnley signed Joe Hart. On highlights you'd see him making loads of great saves but they kept losing. Eventually he was dropped (I think for Nick Pope) and results improved because there is more to being a keeper than making saves.

Nothing - and as someone who was a capable goalie in local, small-sided leagues in both England and Germany - hacks me off more when it comes to goalkeeping-related matters than a goalie that doesn't command enough. And even when I referee, I will often tell a young goalie that they have to learn to find their voices - shout and organise their defenders - to make their own game easier.

Peter Schmeichel was the most obvious example. Not only physically very imposing, but woe betide a defender whose concentration had slipped. Grobbelaar wasn't averse to letting rip either. A keeper needs that. Gunn's missing it a little. Which baffles me, to be honest - it wasn't as if Bryan wouldn't grab hold of his defensive line and bawl at them!

Edited February 2, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 hour ago, jaberry2 said:

 Gunn is a far better keeper and the stats prove that fact. 

I think Krul is better at organising the people in front of him.

[repman 635]

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

Krul - 3 Losses in 15 games (20% Rate)

Gunn - 7 Losses in 13 games  (53% Rate)

I think Wagner knows what he's doing.  Personally I rate Krul over Gunn, he's stronger, more commanding and doesn't fall down like Rob Green when making a save.

I don't know who the better keeper is but using win rate doesn't make much sense to me. I don't think the keeper has some magical effect on the performance of the rest of the team. 

[jaberry2 550]

11 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I think Krul is better at organising the people in front of him.

Well he is probably is a tad more vocal. But organising a defence is all well and good, but when your kicking and decision making is questionable at best it kinda renders organising the people in front of you worthless. I have been calling for Gunn in goal long before his recent stint, so as you can tell I am very pro Gunn. Regards, Bryan Gunn

Edited February 2, 2023 by jaberry2

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

4 minutes ago, jaberry2 said:

Well he is probably is a tad more vocal. But organising a defence is all well and good, but when your kicking and decision making it kinda renders organising the people in front of you worthless. I have been calling for Gunn in goal long before his recent stint, so as you can tell I am very pro Gunn. Regards, Bryan Gunn

I suspect that Wagner just wanted experienced heads for a turnaround situation and that the shirt is still very much Gunn's to play for.

[repman 635]

8 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I think Krul is better at organising the people in front of him.

I see people say this a lot and I just don't understand it. Do you mean from set pieces? 

In most cases I don't see how the keeper has an effect on the shots he faces. 

[shefcanary 2,393]

32 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Peter Schmeichel was the most obvious example. Not only physically very imposing, but woe betide a defender whose concentration had slipped. Grobbelaar wasn't averse to letting rip either. A keeper needs that. Gunn's missing it a little. Which baffles me, to be honest - it wasn't as if Bryan wouldn't grab hold of his defensive line and bawl at them!

His mother being a "sensitive" artist probably has something to do with it? 😉 

[Well b back 3,201]

2 hours ago, jaberry2 said:

Im still gobsmacked as to why Gunn was dropped for Krul when Wagner came in. Gunn is a far better keeper and the stats prove that fact. Guessing Wagner wanted an older head at the back.

Depends what stat you look at, as has been pointed out ( for whatever the reason was ) we only won 3 games with Gunn in goal. 

[Google Bot 3,273]

1 hour ago, repman said:

I don't know who the better keeper is but using win rate doesn't make much sense to me. I don't think the keeper has some magical effect on the performance of the rest of the team. 

Teams i've played in the keeper was a massive part of the team.  Its not magic, just comes down to character and confidence.

And that was loss% that I posted, not win%..  Which directly relates to the goals you concede, so I hope there's some sense there.

[repman 635]

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

Teams i've played in the keeper was a massive part of the team.  Its not magic, just comes down to character and confidence.

I don't disagree it's more that I don't believe it actually has a huge impact and that our problems were not down to the keeper switch. Certainly there's a factor of having the confidence that your keeper will sweep up balls in behind or come out to claim crosses but that doesn't cover most shots from open play. Krul got dropped after the Preston game which was the end of our winning run and basically the beginning of the end for Smith. During that poor run I don't remember anyone calling for Gunn to be dropped.

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

And that was loss% that I posted, not win%..  Which directly relates to the goals you concede, so I hope there's some sense there.

I see the point but it doesn't make sense to purely blame a keeper for not winning games. I posted this after the Preston game over the debate:

Krul/Gunn

Games played: 13/13
Goals conceded: 13/16
Shots on target against: 43/56
Save percentage: 68%/75%

It's right to say we conceded more with Gunn in goal but you can see it was from more shots on target (there's also the xG but I'll steer clear of that right now). 

The biggest factor in results going the wrong way with Gunn in goal is that we scored less goals. In Krul's games we scored 20 and in Gunn's we scored 12. In 5 of Gunn's games we failed to score as opposed to just 1 for Krul. If you don't score you can't win and you're much more likely to lose. Similarly if we carry on scoring 4 goals every game we could probably get away with playing the worst keeper in the league. 

I think generally there's very little between the two keepers and I don't buy that Krul is that superior a shot stopper, the big concern for me is Krul's kicking which in the last 2 games alone could've easily led to goals conceded and if it continues it definitely will do. 

 

[Google Bot 3,273]

11 minutes ago, repman said:

I don't disagree it's more that I don't believe it actually has a huge impact and that our problems were not down to the keeper switch.

I Was purely responding to the remark that "Gunn is a far better keeper and the stats prove that fact.". 

Not said or claimed any of what you've written above, you can think what you like but fact is we lost more than 50% of games Gunn played and only 20% where Krul played.  He's been part of two great wins, and it's a case of putting experience first with the younger man chasing that position.

That's all there is to it, really.

[CDMullins 436]

Krul is a better goalkeeper in every respect, other than distribution.

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,135]

His distribution is always shaky when he comes back into the side after some time out. It's nothing new and he gets up to speed eventually. People have been very quick to write him off and I'm a little surprised by that, last season he was one of our best players and aside from one or two games he was pretty good at the start of this season.

He's still one of the best keepers in this league and while Gunn is better with the ball at his feet his leadership, organisational skills and position leave a lot to be desired at times. There isn't much between them and we're lucky to have both, whoever is sitting on the bench for any period is by far and away the best second choice GK in the league.

[Jersey Canary 143]

7 hours ago, repman said:

I don't know who the better keeper is but using win rate doesn't make much sense to me. I don't think the keeper has some magical effect on the performance of the rest of the team. 

A decent keeper breeds confidence in the defence and the rest of the team surely?

[shefcanary 2,393]

Moot point for the next fortnight now that Gunn is injured. Let's pray Krul stays fit.