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Yellow Fever

IQ / Education & Brexit escape thread.

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Just a place for those that wish to argue/discuss this off the main football thread.

I will add my two-penneth (imperial).

Debates on here on contentious issues such as Covid or Brexit generally have been extremely good as compared to the even more raucous debates generally in the media and yah- boo-sucks. I put that down to the tacit understanding that although we many disagree on many subjects  - we have a common bond as city supporters and the ups and down that alway entails. Long may it contunue.

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Ill kick it off and watch the sparks fly.

The pro-Brexit vote correlates with being elderly and less formal education.

Dylanisabaddog threw up the following more recent study

https://kar.kent.ac.uk/60902/

 

These statements are just statistical facts not open to misinterpretation like it or not. Indeed I recall it being stated that if one wished to imagine a typical (modal) Brexiteer one should think of an elderly poorly educated East Anglican!

The discussion is surely about what caused such people to vote the way they did - and why today (in the light of experience) many would of changed their minds.

I suspect as ever it was head and heart. Those more educated (I don't like IQ) or used to making value judgments on facts tended to vote Remain. Those with less skin in the game either had little to lose (protest vote) or were swayed by nebulous targeted arguments such as sovereignty or indeed immigration  (which is as mythical as ever).   

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24 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

The pro-Brexit vote correlates with being elderly and less formal education.

  

It does, but that's partly because a significant number of under-35s with more formal education didn't bother to vote, thereby flushing their future down the toilet.  They weren't as clever as they imagined.

Edited by benchwarmer
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14 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

It does, but that's partly because a significant number of under-35s with more formal education didn't bother to vote.  They weren't as clever as they thought.

If I recall I think that has been largely been debunked (I nee to find links). The young did vote but not quite in the same numbers - may of been those with less education that didn't - but then again we have a growing and serious demographic imbalance too. 

 

There you go 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

Edited by Yellow Fever

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"No, I'm not calling you stupid .  You're just badly educated.  There is a difference, but then I don't suppose you would know that given your lack of education.....anyway, I'll do the thinking for both of us,  so there's a good boy you vote like I tell you to, it's for your own good"

"No, i don't care how you are feeling, it's not about feelings, it's about facts and the fact is i have a lot to lose...You maybe less so...but here's a graph of projected GDP over the next few years"

Edited by Barbe bleu
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29 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

If I recall I think that has been largely been debunked (I nee to find links). The young did vote but not quite in the same numbers - may of been those with less education that didn't - but then again we have a growing and serious demographic imbalance too. 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

Turnout was twice as high as originally thought at 64% for 18-24 year olds, but compared to the 90% of over 65s voted that's a big shortfall.

Also, it's not quite as binary as that on age. Granted, it was heavily remain for 18-24 year olds with a 27:73 split, but for the 35-44 age group it was a 48:52 split for remain and 45-54 age group, which is still before retirement age, were 56:44 for leave; the 'young/old' divide argument ignores a lot of people in the middle; the trend is to be less likely to be  pro-EU as age increases though.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36616028

I witnessed a lot of leavers accusing remainers of patronising them, and I witnessed a lot of remainers belittling poor spelling by leavers in online exchanges. So, on the point of IQ itself I think a lot of remainers perceived a lot of leavers to be less intelligent, and a lot of leavers perceived remainers to be intellectual snobs, but there's not really a lot of info on the actual IQ correlation with voting choice, only that poorer, less-educated democraphics tended to be more in favour of leave; you would expect there to be a degree of correlation between economic achievement and IQ though.

As an aside, I skimmed an interesting document a while back that showed a trend for less overlap in IQ between university-educated and non-university educated as time has progressed that I would have thought might be relevant, but unfortunately I can't seem to find it again.

Edited by littleyellowbirdie
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4 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Ill kick it off and watch the sparks fly.

The pro-Brexit vote correlates with being elderly and less formal education.

Dylanisabaddog threw up the following more recent study

https://kar.kent.ac.uk/60902/

 

These statements are just statistical facts not open to misinterpretation like it or not. Indeed I recall it being stated that if one wished to imagine a typical (modal) Brexiteer one should think of an elderly poorly educated East Anglican!

The discussion is surely about what caused such people to vote the way they did - and why today (in the light of experience) many would of changed their minds.

I suspect as ever it was head and heart. Those more educated (I don't like IQ) or used to making value judgments on facts tended to vote Remain. Those with less skin in the game either had little to lose (protest vote) or were swayed by nebulous targeted arguments such as sovereignty or indeed immigration  (which is as mythical as ever).   

Well, you started a thread so at least I will make one contribution. And I feel I may not quite know what I might add because my feelings emerge as I write but your heading has brought me tons of thoughts.

I don't tend to correlate intelligence and Brexit as much as I might correlate intelligence with any matter really. For example, I was in Morrisons yesterday and being an impatient sort, I was frustrated at the slowness of folk doing their self checkout! It was the speed of mind I concluded that annoyed me. It's the same in conversations - I can get frustrated in people talking an age. That tells you more about me though than them. 

If I ever do those IQ tests and I've done dozens (in some cases I had to in work roles on those 'development' days) and I'm always around 132/135. That's apparently above average. But I agree with a poster on the football forum, maybe it's because I'm okay at doing those tests? Spatial awareness for example.

On many occasions on here I've stated I'm quick dim. And I will stand by that. It's clear to me by the degree of analysis that other posters bring, that their ability to align their mind to their ability to write - often succinctly and logically - shows a level of intelligence I don't possess. They also have a broader knowledge of world history. Lots of polymaths about. I couldn't compete! Not that it's a game. To pick one poster - yourself YF, you've a wonderfully broad understanding of world affairs. If we were to meet you'd find me very boring I'm sure of that🙂 I couldn't marshall my thoughts orally in the way I'm sure you could. I have to reflect and even write before I know what I've been thinking (hence occasional long posts. I'm just trying to work it out myself).

So ... intelligence! I've also met lots of people who can talk, present, argue with ease. My mind works far more intuitively. I'm all over the place connecting all kinds of thoughts and concepts to try and make sense. I'm therefore not very logical. It's a feeling sense for me. Is that intelligence? Hmmmm, I'm not sure. I feel my sons and wife are brighter. Sharper or they have more common sense.

As a boss (when I now look back I notice now that it was virtually my whole working life) I never felt anyone knew less than me. I took as much time talking to the caretaker as a business contact. I think I became a boss because (a) I tended to get bored and always wanted to learn more and I could define my own path more easily (b) as a person at the head of things I was on my own. Which I now believe / understand is what I always wanted! In other words, the role suited me being alone. I could think and just reflect. At no time did I have a career plan or ambition or a need for power. Just tended to drift. I was also influenced by my customers, my clients and my staff as much as anyone. I always learnt things. Is that intelligence or does it show a lack? That one is building one's ideas.

I give those little snippets from my time because it hints that intelligence is not easy to define. Knowledge and intelligence and intuition and creativity are all linked I believe. They are difficult to separate.

Many folk who are Brexiters on these threads have shown intelligence for me - they knew why they voted and moreover, could explain. I didn't agree of course nor did they share some of my values. I tried a few times but you can't tell anybody anything anyway!

Brexit was for me about a feeling and more importantly, because I always wanted to learn from others. And I've mentioned before that I felt privileged to meet some fantastic Europeans from many countries. They gave me so many new ways of thinking about things, about organising, about work problems. To use a football analogy I found out - shock horror to me 😅-  that I was basically a person playing in the National Leagues. They were Premier League.

And as I'm now retired I feel more strongly than ever that I'm a nobody (not in any self-parodic way, nor a depressive thing)  purely, a recognition I am quite irrelevant. I suppose that's a bit spiritual😅 but it is very freeing. Nothing much bothers me (because there is no-'one' to bother!).

I do agree with you about the making of value judgements however. In terms of values, If you are someone who watches and observes silently then you cannot help learning more. It becomes more a second nature.

I came across a saying by Gilles Deleuze (never heard of him before) that "discussion is just an exercise in narcissism where everyone takes turns showing off". I think I agree and I've wondered a few times about simply leaving here, not posting. That's because of the feeling that I haven't much to offer (apart from elements of myself - though as mentioned above that self is quite irrelevant!). It's a proper dilemma. But maybe I'm always better as an observer than a person who posts things? Is it better to be silent or say things? I've chosen the latter in the last year in order to show moral support for posters like yourself, folk for whom I feel I have an affinity.

Brexit has been a watershed moment for me definitely. It has shown me that people I thought I knew quite well have other sides to them. There were correlations to xenophobia in my personal experience. But far more importantly the Brexit friends I had were very fixed in mind. And that was the big thing it has been difficult to get around. So, flexibility of mind is far more important to me than purer ideas of intelligence. I like more folk who change their minds, who remain open. It's one of the whole meanings of life for the likes of me.

To conclude, thank goodness for the open minded on these threads.

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1 hour ago, sonyc said:

Well, you started a thread so at least I will make one contribution. And I feel I may not quite know what I might add because my feelings emerge as I write but your heading has brought me tons of thoughts.

I don't tend to correlate intelligence and Brexit as much as I might correlate intelligence with any matter really. For example, I was in Morrisons yesterday and being an impatient sort, I was frustrated at the slowness of folk doing their self checkout! It was the speed of mind I concluded that annoyed me. It's the same in conversations - I can get frustrated in people talking an age. That tells you more about me though than them. 

If I ever do those IQ tests and I've done dozens (in some cases I had to in work roles on those 'development' days) and I'm always around 132/135. That's apparently above average. But I agree with a poster on the football forum, maybe it's because I'm okay at doing those tests? Spatial awareness for example.

On many occasions on here I've stated I'm quick dim. And I will stand by that. It's clear to me by the degree of analysis that other posters bring, that their ability to align their mind to their ability to write - often succinctly and logically - shows a level of intelligence I don't possess. They also have a broader knowledge of world history. Lots of polymaths about. I couldn't compete! Not that it's a game. To pick one poster - yourself YF, you've a wonderfully broad understanding of world affairs. If we were to meet you'd find me very boring I'm sure of that🙂 I couldn't marshall my thoughts orally in the way I'm sure you could. I have to reflect and even write before I know what I've been thinking (hence occasional long posts. I'm just trying to work it out myself).

So ... intelligence! I've also met lots of people who can talk, present, argue with ease. My mind works far more intuitively. I'm all over the place connecting all kinds of thoughts and concepts to try and make sense. I'm therefore not very logical. It's a feeling sense for me. Is that intelligence? Hmmmm, I'm not sure. I feel my sons and wife are brighter. Sharper or they have more common sense.

As a boss (when I now look back I notice now that it was virtually my whole working life) I never felt anyone knew less than me. I took as much time talking to the caretaker as a business contact. I think I became a boss because (a) I tended to get bored and always wanted to learn more and I could define my own path more easily (b) as a person at the head of things I was on my own. Which I now believe / understand is what I always wanted! In other words, the role suited me being alone. I could think and just reflect. At no time did I have a career plan or ambition or a need for power. Just tended to drift. I was also influenced by my customers, my clients and my staff as much as anyone. I always learnt things. Is that intelligence or does it show a lack? That one is building one's ideas.

I give those little snippets from my time because it hints that intelligence is not easy to define. Knowledge and intelligence and intuition and creativity are all linked I believe. They are difficult to separate.

Many folk who are Brexiters on these threads have shown intelligence for me - they knew why they voted and moreover, could explain. I didn't agree of course nor did they share some of my values. I tried a few times but you can't tell anybody anything anyway!

Brexit was for me about a feeling and more importantly, because I always wanted to learn from others. And I've mentioned before that I felt privileged to meet some fantastic Europeans from many countries. They gave me so many new ways of thinking about things, about organising, about work problems. To use a football analogy I found out - shock horror to me 😅-  that I was basically a person playing in the National Leagues. They were Premier League.

And as I'm now retired I feel more strongly than ever that I'm a nobody (not in any self-parodic way, nor a depressive thing)  purely, a recognition I am quite irrelevant. I suppose that's a bit spiritual😅 but it is very freeing. Nothing much bothers me (because there is no-'one' to bother!).

I do agree with you about the making of value judgements however. In terms of values, If you are someone who watches and observes silently then you cannot help learning more. It becomes more a second nature.

I came across a saying by Gilles Deleuze (never heard of him before) that "discussion is just an exercise in narcissism where everyone takes turns showing off". I think I agree and I've wondered a few times about simply leaving here, not posting. That's because of the feeling that I haven't much to offer (apart from elements of myself - though as mentioned above that self is quite irrelevant!). It's a proper dilemma. But maybe I'm always better as an observer than a person who posts things? Is it better to be silent or say things? I've chosen the latter in the last year in order to show moral support for posters like yourself, folk for whom I feel I have an affinity.

Brexit has been a watershed moment for me definitely. It has shown me that people I thought I knew quite well have other sides to them. There were correlations to xenophobia in my personal experience. But far more importantly the Brexit friends I had were very fixed in mind. And that was the big thing it has been difficult to get around. So, flexibility of mind is far more important to me than purer ideas of intelligence. I like more folk who change their minds, who remain open. It's one of the whole meanings of life for the likes of me.

To conclude, thank goodness for the open minded on these threads.

I can agree with nearly all of this SC - and its why I don't like IQ a opposed to 'more formal education' as a correlation - which in itself correlates with broader life experiences.

You actually noted my comment in the other thread 'spatial' intelligence. Factually I recalled reading that Australian aboriginals tend not to to do so well on formal (western inspired) IQ tests - but are startling good at knowing where they are and where to go without sat nav anywhere in Australia. Superb spatial intelligence. Built in google maps 😉 . So just what are we measuring with our IQ tests? I've never done a test myself nor wish too - I've been described as 'genius' in my field by two different companies on different continents for what I've done for them - but am equally totally useless at languages, can't put names to faces and have poor memory of my past compared to my younger siblings (topically I now suspect/certain even I have aphantasia). Good spatial memory and awareness though! I suspect I would be average (I note Nobel prize winners have had IQs measured as less than yours - still hope for you yet 🙂). In summary we all think differently - strengths and weaknesses.

All that said the facts are the facts about the how people voted the way they did. Mention those statistical facts to many of the Brexit persuasion and a torrent of defensive (especially vs education) emotional rhetoric follows as opposed to a factual assessment of why they voted the way they did. I however now regard it as inevitable that we will move to realign with the EU in due course - indeed a recent Telegraph editorial said as much (even re-joining the SM faster than expected) as the failure that is Brexit becomes ever more apparent and the polls shift ever more towards 60/40. Of course a small section of the population can never admit that and will find ever more far fetched excuses - the latest is we haven't done it properly, must try harder, 50 years etc. One day like the prodigal son returning  we'll be proper committed Europeans again - just a little wiser 😉

Oh - an anecdote - yesterday was sorting out a Japanese brides' wedding dress in Tokyo with the bride. We both agreed on the dress - Phew. Don't ask! Japan has a falling and already very low birth rate and is desperately trying to to do something about it. On some studies they say that in a few decades or less Japans populations could FALL by 25% - and financial disaster / melt down would follow (not enough young people to support / pay taxes for the huge number of retiring elderly). Although Japan is very 'conservative' on immigration they are realizing they need lots - urgently - and that's almost the same conundrum we have with the elderly being the most opposed  / conservative here!  Sometimes it's far easier to see our problems reflected in a foreign country.

 

Edited by Yellow Fever
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7 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Oh - an anecdote - yesterday was sorting out a Japanese brides' wedding dress in Tokyo with the bride. We both agreed on the dress - Phew. Don't ask! Japan has a falling and already very low birth rate and is desperately trying to to do something about it. On some studies they say that in a few decades or less Japans populations could FALL by 25% - and financial disaster / melt down would follow (not enough young people to support / pay taxes for the huge number of retiring elderly). Although Japan is very 'conservative' on immigration they are realizing they need lots - urgently - and that's almost the same conundrum we have with the elderly being the most opposed  / conservative!  Sometimes it's far easier to see our problems reflected in a foreign country.

 

Japan's very interesting in that they do mirror us in some respects as an island nation with an imperial past.The flip side is that Japan's own culture fascinates so many people as something very distinct from the general trends in the rest of the western world, maintaining a social structure and common values reflected in the incredibly low crime rates.

It'll be interesting to see how multiculturalism goes down there as immigration grows and whether those values survive.

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12 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Japan's very interesting in that they do mirror us in some respects as an island nation with an imperial past.The flip side is that Japan's own culture fascinates so many people as something very distinct from the general trends in the rest of the western world, maintaining a social structure and common values reflected in the incredibly low crime rates.

It'll be interesting to see how multiculturalism goes down there as immigration grows and whether those values survive.

There are lots of similarities and big differences - us and the French - them and the Koreans - love/hate and lots of historical wars (with the weather coming to the rescue) ! And yes an island mentality vs the continent. Industrialized very early on.

Then again when I work there quite often at lunchtime time would go out for an Indian at the local centre!

Edited by Yellow Fever
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6 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

There are lots of similarities and big differences - us and the French - them and the Koreans - love/hate and lots of historical wars (with the weather coming to the rescue) ! And yes an island mentality vs the continent. Industrialized very early on.

Then again when I work there quite often at lunchtime time would go out for an Indian at the local centre!

On another slight culinary tangent, when I visited my nephew in Dusseldorf, I was taken to an Indian/German fusion restaurant by a German friend, and ended up profiting from the huge range of authentic Japanese restaurants there!

I did get a bit of German cuisine: A home-cooked meal by my nephew's girlfriend... and a Bratwurst on the way back from a Borussia Dortmund game!

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4 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

and a Bratwurst on the way back from a Borussia Dortmund game!

Bratwurst and beer at a Dortmund game isn’t it ? 😁

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Its very difficult to say what intelligence means or equates to.

Obviously it means the ability to understand and store knowledge. But also it is the means to analyse information and interpret whether the information is important or useful.

So when Mum and Dad sent me to Sunday School, my lack of intelligence and belief that what I was told was gospel, encouraged me to believe in God and all things biblical. When accrued some intelligence, I analysed what I had been told and became agnostic before eventually atheist. Mum and Dad no more believed in God but wanted a kiss and cuddle on Sunday morning.

But of course, I know there are people I would consider intelligent who believe vehemently in God's existence. And science tells me there are black holes but I have never seen one either. But I believe those that tell me are intelligent.

However, when it came to Brexit, I don't honestly believe it had anything to do with intelligence. It was a belief. As much as I dare say French or German people say the British are just out for themselves, we did have an argument based not on intelligence but dislike of all things foreign. With no proof of course. Personally I had no clue whether Brexit would be good for the country but reasoned that if I didn't know what the future held, why change it.

But as we know, and we have seen countless examples of people rambling on about things they have no intelligence about but what they hear suits their belief. Cornwall voted overwhelmingly to leave yet the intelligence says Cornwall gained dramatically thanks to our membership. So where did intelligence reason differently? I recently saw a chap rabbiting on about WTO rules but couldn't say what those rules were. And you only have to look at MAGA and Qanon in the US to see that intelligence is second to belief.

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3 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Indeed I recall it being stated that if one wished to imagine a typical (modal) Brexiteer one should think of an elderly poorly educated East Anglican!

Yeah! those bloody Church of England bast*ards. Whereas those East Anglians, they're even worse!!!

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29 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

But as we know, and we have seen countless examples of people rambling on about things they have no intelligence about but what they hear suits their belief

Me too. The core of the issue is the way some people  express their beliefs. Having a huge confidence in oneself goes a long way. I've seen many people in high ranking positions who are 'right up themselves' but blag it out. Somehow having a sense or feeling of superiority can masquerade as intelligence. It encourages some people to trust and have confidence in the person. And there are enough people who will follow.

Having a balance and a sense of perspective is a lifelong challenge - you want your children to be confident and assured in themselves but not to the point of arrogance. That is the challenge of a parent in bringing up happy and balanced children.

Has Brexit taken away a degree of tolerance in society?  Has it had the effect on other attitudes becoming more polarised?

Edited by sonyc

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1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Its very difficult to say what intelligence means or equates to.

Obviously it means the ability to understand and store knowledge. But also it is the means to analyse information and interpret whether the information is important or useful.

So when Mum and Dad sent me to Sunday School, my lack of intelligence and belief that what I was told was gospel, encouraged me to believe in God and all things biblical. When accrued some intelligence, I analysed what I had been told and became agnostic before eventually atheist. Mum and Dad no more believed in God but wanted a kiss and cuddle on Sunday morning.

But of course, I know there are people I would consider intelligent who believe vehemently in God's existence. And science tells me there are black holes but I have never seen one either. But I believe those that tell me are intelligent.

However, when it came to Brexit, I don't honestly believe it had anything to do with intelligence. It was a belief. As much as I dare say French or German people say the British are just out for themselves, we did have an argument based not on intelligence but dislike of all things foreign. With no proof of course. Personally I had no clue whether Brexit would be good for the country but reasoned that if I didn't know what the future held, why change it.

But as we know, and we have seen countless examples of people rambling on about things they have no intelligence about but what they hear suits their belief. Cornwall voted overwhelmingly to leave yet the intelligence says Cornwall gained dramatically thanks to our membership. So where did intelligence reason differently? I recently saw a chap rabbiting on about WTO rules but couldn't say what those rules were. And you only have to look at MAGA and Qanon in the US to see that intelligence is second to belief.

I think you nailed it KG. 

I seem to recall the famous LBC call with a listener ranting on about all the EU laws that affected him - but when asked which ones couldn't name any. His 'belief' overruled any intelligence he may of possibly had.

Have we yet removed the 5% VAT on gas/electricity?  Seems not (for more pragmatic reasons). I really thought that would of been an easy Brexit win

Hmm. Nil point to Brexit it seems.

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2 hours ago, horsefly said:

Yeah! those bloody Church of England bast*ards. Whereas those East Anglians, they're even worse!!!

It's too good a foo-pah to change. Obviously the spell checker has a much better sense of humour (aka smarter) than me 😉

 

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5 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

... on the point of IQ itself I think a lot of remainers perceived a lot of leavers to be less intelligent, and a lot of leavers perceived remainers to be intellectual snobs, but there's not really a lot of info on the actual IQ correlation with voting choice, only that poorer, less-educated democraphics tended to be more in favour of leave; you would expect there to be a degree of correlation between economic achievement and IQ though.

Try reading the second post from Yellow Fever above. Kent University did a huge survey and study on the subject. Among other things, they concluded that the average leave voter had an IQ 12% lower than the average remain voter.

But to quote Michael Gove, they're experts so what would they know......

My sister, who is of below average intelligence but very lovely nonetheless, told me quite confidently before the vote - 

It would be the easiest trade deal ever

They had more to lose than us

We would strike trade deals across the world and be richer than ever 

Turkey was going to join the EU and all 70m of them were going to move here

If we didn't leave we would be swamped with Syrians

The EU is undemocratic 

The EU would fall apart when we left. 

 

I debunked all these theories which had been fed to her by Cambridge Analytica on Facebook which is her only news source. Despite the fact that I provided evidence to show her all this was nonsense she voted Leave because she trusted Boris Johnson. She still does...... 

 

Edited by dylanisabaddog
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1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

I think you nailed it KG. 

I seem to recall the famous LBC call with a listener ranting on about all the EU laws that affected him - but when asked which ones couldn't name any. His 'belief' overruled any intelligence he may of possibly had.

Have we yet removed the 5% VAT on gas/electricity?  Seems not (for more pragmatic reasons). I really thought that would of been an easy Brexit win

Hmm. Nil point to Brexit it seems.

I am positive people like Johnson managed to sway people's opinion regarding Brexit by his assumed intelligence. Give them a bit of Latin mixed with a touch of Plato and they will fall for anything because they assume I am intelligent and know what I'm talking about.

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4 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Japan's very interesting in that they do mirror us in some respects as an island nation with an imperial past.The flip side is that Japan's own culture fascinates so many people as something very distinct from the general trends in the rest of the western world, maintaining a social structure and common values reflected in the incredibly low crime rates.

It'll be interesting to see how multiculturalism goes down there as immigration grows and whether those values survive.

Have you read any of Murakami's novels? The Wind Up-Bird Chronicle I find particularly fascinating. Under the superficial layer of western culture the much deeper, older Japan keeps breaking through. I'd love to go there but I'm too old now.

As for Brexit, I've stated my reasons for wishing to exit the EU many times now & I'm not going to reiterate them.

 

Edited by ron obvious
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4 hours ago, ron obvious said:

Have you read any of Murakami's novels? The Wind Up-Bird Chronicle I find particularly fascinating. Under the superficial layer of western culture the much deeper, older Japan keeps breaking through. I'd love to go there but I'm too old now.

As for Brexit, I've stated my reasons for wishing to exit the EU many times now & I'm not going to reiterate them.

 

I will have a look. Thanks for the recommendation!

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18 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Its very difficult to say what intelligence means or equates to. 

What intelligence means is very interesting. I saw a programme about Wayne Rooney that included an interview with someone who had coached Rooney when he was 11. The coach was fascinated by his ability and at one point stopped him on the halfway line and put his hand over Rooney's eyes. Rooney was able to tell him where everyone on the pitch was and where they were going. He went on to explain his options with the ball based on the varying abilities of all the other players and where they were. The coach said he'd never seen anything like it from an adult let alone an eleven year old. He described him as a genius even though at that time Rooney couldn't read or write very well. 

It seems that IQ is very limited in what it can tell us about someone. During my working life I got to meet a huge number of owners of medium size businesses. Those sort of people employ approaching 30% of the working population. As an ice breaker I used to ask them about their personal history and history of their businesses, most of which had started from scratch. The number of people who replied that they had left school with little or no qualifications was extraordinary. One of them even told me that it was a good job he was thick because he was too stupid to realise the financial risks he had taken. 

It would seem that a high IQ is no guarantee of success or happiness. 

 

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12 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

One of them even told me that it was a good job he was thick because he was too stupid to realise the financial risks he had taken

Is this going to be Zahawi's excuse ?

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1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

What intelligence means is very interesting. I saw a programme about Wayne Rooney that included an interview with someone who had coached Rooney when he was 11. The coach was fascinated by his ability and at one point stopped him on the halfway line and put his hand over Rooney's eyes. Rooney was able to tell him where everyone on the pitch was and where they were going. He went on to explain his options with the ball based on the varying abilities of all the other players and where they were. The coach said he'd never seen anything like it from an adult let alone an eleven year old. He described him as a genius even though at that time Rooney couldn't read or write very well. 

It seems that IQ is very limited in what it can tell us about someone. During my working life I got to meet a huge number of owners of medium size businesses. Those sort of people employ approaching 30% of the working population. As an ice breaker I used to ask them about their personal history and history of their businesses, most of which had started from scratch. The number of people who replied that they had left school with little or no qualifications was extraordinary. One of them even told me that it was a good job he was thick because he was too stupid to realise the financial risks he had taken. 

It would seem that a high IQ is no guarantee of success or happiness. 

 

A psychologist once conducted a chess IQ test by setting up a board with a position probably halfway through a game, with some pieces taken and several not in their original positions. He picked four players, from a club player through to a former world champion and they had ten seconds to look at the position.

In reconstructing it the other three all made mistakes, although the best of them, of master strength,  only got one thing wrong. But the former world champion not only did it perfectly but added comments on which side was better placed.

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Education is the biggest dividing line in US politics and it is going that way here too.

People with degrees vote democrat in the states, those that don't vote republican. It is the single biggest predictor of voting behaviour. 

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3 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Is this going to be Zahawi's excuse ?

Uncle Festa had magical powers to produce electricity...but I'm not sure that Zahawi will be able to magically slip through this latest scandal in the Tory Party. 

There is a slight resemblance between the two but only in looks.

 

IMG_20230125_121823.jpg

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3 hours ago, king canary said:

Education is the biggest dividing line in US politics and it is going that way here too.

People with degrees vote democrat in the states, those that don't vote republican. It is the single biggest predictor of voting behaviour. 

I left school at 16 but went to night school in my 40s and obtained a history degree in 1998.  Was I more intelligent than I was before?  No, but I'd exercised it to learn a vital skill: how to interrogate facts, what questions to ask to arrive at a conclusion.  Lower levels of education are (or were when I was young) far more concerned with absorbing facts as an end in itself. 

I learned above all that the big questions of history hardly ever have a simple yes/no answer.  So when it came to the referendum, I was unconvinced by promises of a Brexit nirvana and voted Remain even though I was well aware that the EU is far from perfect. 

The EU referendum is a prime example of "Ask a stupid question and you get a stupid answer".  It should never have taken place, and if Cameron had spent less time trashing restaurants in Oxford and more time on his studies we might be in a very different place now.

Edited by benchwarmer
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2 hours ago, king canary said:

Education is the biggest dividing line in US politics and it is going that way here too.

People with degrees vote democrat in the states, those that don't vote republican. It is the single biggest predictor of voting behaviour. 

And of course Cambridge Analytica can do it using Facebook. They claim that with 95% accuracy they can predict from Facebook when someone's relationship is ending. That is before the person concerned knows. Absolutely terrifying 

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4 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

I left school at 16 but went to night school in my 40s and obtained a history degree in 1998.  Was I more intelligent than I was before?  No, but I'd exercised it to learn a vital skill: how to interrogate facts, what questions to ask to arrive at a conclusion.  Lower levels of education are (or were when I was young) far more concerned with absorbing facts as an end in itself. 

I learned above all that the big questions of history hardly ever have a simple yes/no answer.  So when it came to the referendum, I was unconvinced by empty promises of a Brexit nirvana and voted Remain even though I had become more aware than before that the EU is far from perfect. 

The EU referendum is a prime example of "Ask a stupid question and you get a stupid answer".

Yes and it is unfortunate that the absolute binary nature of debates is becoming more prevelent (on both wings of the political spectrum) rather than lesser. There are so many issues out there that are complicated and require nuance, thoughtfulness and compromise but those things have gone so far out of fashion. 

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