Have we seen the end of 433 ?

[Deptford Yellow 258]

I sure hope so ……

[mrdi 373]

We should’ve seen the end of it after the first 3 or 4 games last season. The persistence with it, not least as it nullified the effectiveness of our own best players, was baffling. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,735]

Has Dean Smith had stuck with the diamond formation with Sargent and Pukki up front, instead of abandoning it after one game, he may still be in a job today 

[TIL 1010 4,719]

Hopefully seen the end of the obsession with xg.

Waits..........

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

What am I missing here? Literally every source I look at says both our last games were 4-3-3, including transfermarkt and the BBC.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64194822

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64272456

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/3856938

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/3857009

[hogesar 9,616]

11 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

What am I missing here? Literally every source I look at says both our last games were 4-3-3, including transfermarkt and the BBC.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64194822

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64272456

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/3856938

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/3857009

They weren't. But both your sources are very lazy

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

12 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

What am I missing here? Literally every source I look at says both our last games were 4-3-3, including transfermarkt and the BBC.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64194822

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64272456

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/3856938

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/3857009

I think you’re missing that all those sources show Sargent playing as a central midfielder…

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

I think you can call it a 4-2-3-1, or a 4-2-2-2, even a 4-2-2-1-1 depending on how you see Sargent sitting slightly behind Pukki.

Certainly not close to 4-3-3 though 

[Branston Pickle 3,634]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

They weren't. But both your sources are very lazy

If they weren’t they weren’t that far off. In any case, most formations are fairly fluid, it always bemuses me why people get quite so caught up on them. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

6 minutes ago, hogesar said:

They weren't. But both your sources are very lazy

Curious as to which sources had it listed correctly in that case, if the BBC and Transfermarkt can't be trusted?

[Newtopia 517]

I really hope so.  I am bit nervous that we may struggle for width against the better sides if the fullbacks are struggling to get forward as the opposition press them back.

[hogesar 9,616]

10 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Curious as to which sources had it listed correctly in that case, if the BBC and Transfermarkt can't be trusted?

 

12 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

If they weren’t they weren’t that far off. In any case, most formations are fairly fluid, it always bemuses me why people get quite so caught up on them. 

Probably worth following journalists actually at the game like Michael Bailey.

We've played a hybrid 4-2-3-1 for the most part although we often end up in a 4-1-1-3-1 as Kenny is so much deeper.

The fact those sources often stated Sargent was out wide or part of a central 3 tell you how reliable they are!

 

EDIT: with the ball it's more a back 3 including McLean with both full backs high enough to be midfielders.

Edited January 22, 2023 by hogesar

[shefcanary 2,383]

The narrative from the Pink Un had Sara and McLean as a double pivot with Sargent playing behond Pukki. That suggests 4-2-3-1 to me.

Can anyone find an average player position graphic to share and confirm the set up? 

[repman 634]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

The narrative from the Pink Un had Sara and McLean as a double pivot with Sargent playing behond Pukki. That suggests 4-2-3-1 to me.

Can anyone find an average player position graphic to share and confirm the set up? 

 

Arguments about formations are basically pointless in my view. They serve as the starting point for the defensive side of the game but people more often use them as the reason for attacking problems. The reason '4-3-3' didn't work under Smith was because we weren't coached well enough, no formation was ever going to fix that.

[shefcanary 2,383]

48 minutes ago, repman said:

 

Arguments about formations are basically pointless in my view. They serve as the starting point for the defensive side of the game but people more often use them as the reason for attacking problems. The reason '4-3-3' didn't work under Smith was because we weren't coached well enough, no formation was ever going to fix that.

Cheers Repman, defo 4-2-3-1 in my eyes! 😀

[GenerationA47 747]

45 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Cheers Repman, defo 4-2-3-1 in my eyes! 😀

No.. that right there is clearly 2-3-2-2-1 😉

[chicken 2,604]

6 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

Hopefully seen the end of the obsession with xg.

Waits..........

The only people left with any "obsession" with xg are the ones claiming everyone else has an obsession with xg. Ironic. 

[Petriix 2,834]

I was going to write a post about the formation. There's a strong argument that we were basically playing a 3-5-2 with Kenny as the third CB when we had the ball. But it's ostensibly a 4-2-3-1 with a slightly exaggerated 6/8 pairing of McLean and Sara and very high fullbacks. Notably Hernandez played a bit higher and wider than Dowell who tended to drop a little deeper.

I disagree with @repman. I think the formation is significant because the starting position dictates to an extent what patterns of play will emerge. In the 4-3-3 the absence of a number 10 or strike partner for Pukki left him isolated and ineffective while the high, wide wingers left the fullbacks exposed. Dowell was particularly unable to perform the winger role while he excels playing narrower.

[chicken 2,604]

I came here to say the same as @repman.

I don't think anyone can ever stick to one formation unless it works against every opponent. Also, what Repman is sort of saying is that ideally, formations are flexible and adaptable. The reason the 4-2-3-1 works so well is what @Petriix explains.

You can be 4-2-3-1, then move to a 3-5-2 or even a 4-3-3 if the middle of the AM 3 drops a bit more and the wide AM push more. Equally, the central AM could push up to be closer to the striker and it look more like a 4-4-2. Teams usually don't like to set up without width and a 4-2-3-1 at least gives us that. It's one of the most flexible systems I think there is.

[hogesar 9,616]

1 hour ago, chicken said:

The only people left with any "obsession" with xg are the ones claiming everyone else has an obsession with xg. Ironic. 

Yes, quite. Although I will update my one thread on the entire forum when I get a chance tomorrow 🙂

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

7 hours ago, hogesar said:

Yes, quite. Although I will update my one thread on the entire forum when I get a chance tomorrow 🙂

 

I nearly posted a question about it on there yesterday, but I didn't want to be accused of trolling.

[dylanisabaddog 4,867]

13 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Curious as to which sources had it listed correctly in that case, if the BBC and Transfermarkt can't be trusted?

Perhaps try watching? 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

5 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Perhaps try watching? 

To be honest, it's a finer detail I've never got the hang of. The players keep on moving about. If they'd just stand still all the time it'd be easier to identify.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

13 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

To be honest, it's a finer detail I've never got the hang of. The players keep on moving about. If they'd just stand still all the time it'd be easier to identify.

At last , some honesty. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

Just now, wcorkcanary said:

At last , some honesty. 

I'm always honest. Just like you're always boring.

[rock bus 850]

33 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

To be honest, it's a finer detail I've never got the hang of. The players keep on moving about. If they'd just stand still all the time it'd be easier to identify.

To be fair, they seemed to be pretty much be doing that when Smith was here!

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

Just now, rock bus said:

To be fair, they seemed to be pretty much be doing that when Smith was here!

Out of reactions, but that's a good one. 😁

[Google Bot 3,256]

I was thinking during the game that Wagner isn't caught up on conventions so much.  We're not even that symmetrical when you think about it.   The role Dowell plays on the right vs Onel is completely different.   And the amount of times that Max went back. and held the CB position was interesting.

Workrate and individuals knowing what they should be doing at any given moment trumps formation for me.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

47 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I'm always honest. Just like you're always boring.

Nah mate, not havin it. Boring? Literally no one is backing you with your pro smith campaign , trying to rewrite history in order to appear balanced  and having more insight than tbe rest of us . Can tell you for  nothing that the forces saved you so much embarrassment  when they rejected you, you wouldnt have lasted five minutes with a know all holier than thou attitude. 

Now back to some obscure point you were trying to make about scoring 4 goals.......how many times did we score 4 under Deano? 😇

[Capt. Pants 4,195]

12 hours ago, repman said:

 

Arguments about formations are basically pointless in my view. They serve as the starting point for the defensive side of the game but people more often use them as the reason for attacking problems. The reason '4-3-3' didn't work under Smith was because we weren't coached well enough, no formation was ever going to fix that.

That's the first half view unless they've combined McCallum in with Dimi. I thought 2nd half we had better shape with McLean and Sara more or less in line. Consequently we controlled midfield far better, kept the ball and were pretty commanding really.

I agree it will always be fluid and there'll be a bit of drift in graphics such as this from some players, eg Dowell, who play where they like.