Deptford Yellow 258 Posted January 22, 2023 I sure hope so …… Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrdi 373 Posted January 22, 2023 We should’ve seen the end of it after the first 3 or 4 games last season. The persistence with it, not least as it nullified the effectiveness of our own best players, was baffling. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,748 Posted January 22, 2023 Has Dean Smith had stuck with the diamond formation with Sargent and Pukki up front, instead of abandoning it after one game, he may still be in a job today Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TIL 1010 4,738 Posted January 22, 2023 Hopefully seen the end of the obsession with xg. Waits.......... 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
littleyellowbirdie 2,545 Posted January 22, 2023 What am I missing here? Literally every source I look at says both our last games were 4-3-3, including transfermarkt and the BBC. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64194822 https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64272456 https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/3856938 https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/3857009 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,658 Posted January 22, 2023 11 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said: What am I missing here? Literally every source I look at says both our last games were 4-3-3, including transfermarkt and the BBC. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64194822 https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64272456 https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/3856938 https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/3857009 They weren't. But both your sources are very lazy 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hank shoots Skyler 2,094 Posted January 22, 2023 12 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said: What am I missing here? Literally every source I look at says both our last games were 4-3-3, including transfermarkt and the BBC. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64194822 https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/64272456 https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/3856938 https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/3857009 I think you’re missing that all those sources show Sargent playing as a central midfielder… Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hank shoots Skyler 2,094 Posted January 22, 2023 I think you can call it a 4-2-3-1, or a 4-2-2-2, even a 4-2-2-1-1 depending on how you see Sargent sitting slightly behind Pukki. Certainly not close to 4-3-3 though Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Branston Pickle 3,656 Posted January 22, 2023 1 minute ago, hogesar said: They weren't. But both your sources are very lazy If they weren’t they weren’t that far off. In any case, most formations are fairly fluid, it always bemuses me why people get quite so caught up on them. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
littleyellowbirdie 2,545 Posted January 22, 2023 6 minutes ago, hogesar said: They weren't. But both your sources are very lazy Curious as to which sources had it listed correctly in that case, if the BBC and Transfermarkt can't be trusted? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newtopia 517 Posted January 22, 2023 I really hope so. I am bit nervous that we may struggle for width against the better sides if the fullbacks are struggling to get forward as the opposition press them back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,658 Posted January 22, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said: Curious as to which sources had it listed correctly in that case, if the BBC and Transfermarkt can't be trusted? 12 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said: If they weren’t they weren’t that far off. In any case, most formations are fairly fluid, it always bemuses me why people get quite so caught up on them. Probably worth following journalists actually at the game like Michael Bailey. We've played a hybrid 4-2-3-1 for the most part although we often end up in a 4-1-1-3-1 as Kenny is so much deeper. The fact those sources often stated Sargent was out wide or part of a central 3 tell you how reliable they are! EDIT: with the ball it's more a back 3 including McLean with both full backs high enough to be midfielders. Edited January 22, 2023 by hogesar 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shefcanary 2,397 Posted January 22, 2023 The narrative from the Pink Un had Sara and McLean as a double pivot with Sargent playing behond Pukki. That suggests 4-2-3-1 to me. Can anyone find an average player position graphic to share and confirm the set up? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
repman 635 Posted January 22, 2023 1 hour ago, shefcanary said: The narrative from the Pink Un had Sara and McLean as a double pivot with Sargent playing behond Pukki. That suggests 4-2-3-1 to me. Can anyone find an average player position graphic to share and confirm the set up? Arguments about formations are basically pointless in my view. They serve as the starting point for the defensive side of the game but people more often use them as the reason for attacking problems. The reason '4-3-3' didn't work under Smith was because we weren't coached well enough, no formation was ever going to fix that. 2 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shefcanary 2,397 Posted January 22, 2023 48 minutes ago, repman said: Arguments about formations are basically pointless in my view. They serve as the starting point for the defensive side of the game but people more often use them as the reason for attacking problems. The reason '4-3-3' didn't work under Smith was because we weren't coached well enough, no formation was ever going to fix that. Cheers Repman, defo 4-2-3-1 in my eyes! 😀 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GenerationA47 751 Posted January 22, 2023 45 minutes ago, shefcanary said: Cheers Repman, defo 4-2-3-1 in my eyes! 😀 No.. that right there is clearly 2-3-2-2-1 😉 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chicken 2,624 Posted January 22, 2023 6 hours ago, TIL 1010 said: Hopefully seen the end of the obsession with xg. Waits.......... The only people left with any "obsession" with xg are the ones claiming everyone else has an obsession with xg. Ironic. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Petriix 2,834 Posted January 22, 2023 I was going to write a post about the formation. There's a strong argument that we were basically playing a 3-5-2 with Kenny as the third CB when we had the ball. But it's ostensibly a 4-2-3-1 with a slightly exaggerated 6/8 pairing of McLean and Sara and very high fullbacks. Notably Hernandez played a bit higher and wider than Dowell who tended to drop a little deeper. I disagree with @repman. I think the formation is significant because the starting position dictates to an extent what patterns of play will emerge. In the 4-3-3 the absence of a number 10 or strike partner for Pukki left him isolated and ineffective while the high, wide wingers left the fullbacks exposed. Dowell was particularly unable to perform the winger role while he excels playing narrower. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chicken 2,624 Posted January 22, 2023 I came here to say the same as @repman. I don't think anyone can ever stick to one formation unless it works against every opponent. Also, what Repman is sort of saying is that ideally, formations are flexible and adaptable. The reason the 4-2-3-1 works so well is what @Petriix explains. You can be 4-2-3-1, then move to a 3-5-2 or even a 4-3-3 if the middle of the AM 3 drops a bit more and the wide AM push more. Equally, the central AM could push up to be closer to the striker and it look more like a 4-4-2. Teams usually don't like to set up without width and a 4-2-3-1 at least gives us that. It's one of the most flexible systems I think there is. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,658 Posted January 23, 2023 1 hour ago, chicken said: The only people left with any "obsession" with xg are the ones claiming everyone else has an obsession with xg. Ironic. Yes, quite. Although I will update my one thread on the entire forum when I get a chance tomorrow 🙂 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
littleyellowbirdie 2,545 Posted January 23, 2023 7 hours ago, hogesar said: Yes, quite. Although I will update my one thread on the entire forum when I get a chance tomorrow 🙂 I nearly posted a question about it on there yesterday, but I didn't want to be accused of trolling. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dylanisabaddog 4,914 Posted January 23, 2023 13 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said: Curious as to which sources had it listed correctly in that case, if the BBC and Transfermarkt can't be trusted? Perhaps try watching? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
littleyellowbirdie 2,545 Posted January 23, 2023 5 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said: Perhaps try watching? To be honest, it's a finer detail I've never got the hang of. The players keep on moving about. If they'd just stand still all the time it'd be easier to identify. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wcorkcanary 4,334 Posted January 23, 2023 13 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said: To be honest, it's a finer detail I've never got the hang of. The players keep on moving about. If they'd just stand still all the time it'd be easier to identify. At last , some honesty. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
littleyellowbirdie 2,545 Posted January 23, 2023 Just now, wcorkcanary said: At last , some honesty. I'm always honest. Just like you're always boring. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rock bus 851 Posted January 23, 2023 33 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said: To be honest, it's a finer detail I've never got the hang of. The players keep on moving about. If they'd just stand still all the time it'd be easier to identify. To be fair, they seemed to be pretty much be doing that when Smith was here! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
littleyellowbirdie 2,545 Posted January 23, 2023 Just now, rock bus said: To be fair, they seemed to be pretty much be doing that when Smith was here! Out of reactions, but that's a good one. 😁 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Google Bot 3,275 Posted January 23, 2023 I was thinking during the game that Wagner isn't caught up on conventions so much. We're not even that symmetrical when you think about it. The role Dowell plays on the right vs Onel is completely different. And the amount of times that Max went back. and held the CB position was interesting. Workrate and individuals knowing what they should be doing at any given moment trumps formation for me. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wcorkcanary 4,334 Posted January 23, 2023 47 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said: I'm always honest. Just like you're always boring. Nah mate, not havin it. Boring? Literally no one is backing you with your pro smith campaign , trying to rewrite history in order to appear balanced and having more insight than tbe rest of us . Can tell you for nothing that the forces saved you so much embarrassment when they rejected you, you wouldnt have lasted five minutes with a know all holier than thou attitude. Now back to some obscure point you were trying to make about scoring 4 goals.......how many times did we score 4 under Deano? 😇 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt. Pants 4,226 Posted January 23, 2023 12 hours ago, repman said: Arguments about formations are basically pointless in my view. They serve as the starting point for the defensive side of the game but people more often use them as the reason for attacking problems. The reason '4-3-3' didn't work under Smith was because we weren't coached well enough, no formation was ever going to fix that. That's the first half view unless they've combined McCallum in with Dimi. I thought 2nd half we had better shape with McLean and Sara more or less in line. Consequently we controlled midfield far better, kept the ball and were pretty commanding really. I agree it will always be fluid and there'll be a bit of drift in graphics such as this from some players, eg Dowell, who play where they like. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites