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Eiran Cashin - Derby County

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If we sign a 21 year centre back in this window then I think that's a sign that we're embarking on a rebuild for next season rather than chasing a play-off promotion this season.

Not saying I'd be against that, in fact I think that might be the smarter thing to do, cut our cloth, shed high earners and have a reset. Just that it means Pukki will be gone in the summer and that saddens me greatly.

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7 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

If we sign a 21 year centre back in this window then I think that's a sign that we're embarking on a rebuild for next season rather than chasing a play-off promotion this season.

Not saying I'd be against that, in fact I think that might be the smarter thing to do, cut our cloth, shed high earners and have a reset. Just that it means Pukki will be gone in the summer and that saddens me greatly.

To be fair signing a 21 year old CB when you've got late 20s Gibson/Hanley/Byram as your main choices makes decent business sense, especially if we don't have much money laying around like it's been touted. Problem is decent prime players cost lots of money these days. 

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I’m so much more optimistic about signing young up and coming players with Wagner at the helm because I think he presents as someone that can provide them a place to develop with their shackles off a bit. I’m basing this on not much more than Huddersfield but also that German connection. I posted a while ago that I felt Mumba should stay at Plymouth rather than be recalled into a Smith team and called Deano the ‘talent destroyer’. Obviously I could’ve been totally wrong but I just feel so much better about our future now. 

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55 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

If we sign a 21 year centre back in this window then I think that's a sign that we're embarking on a rebuild for next season rather than chasing a play-off promotion this season.

Not saying I'd be against that, in fact I think that might be the smarter thing to do, cut our cloth, shed high earners and have a reset. Just that it means Pukki will be gone in the summer and that saddens me greatly.

That would be utterly absurd, and not something in the clubs thoughts at all. We are a few points off a play off place and will throw everything at Going up. or do we tell the players 'sorry lads, don't bother winning, oh and forget any bonuses based on finishing in the top six, or even top two". Yep that's going to happen.

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3 minutes ago, PockthorpePete said:

That would be utterly absurd, and not something in the clubs thoughts at all. We are a few points off a play off place and will throw everything at Going up. or do we tell the players 'sorry lads, don't bother winning, oh and forget any bonuses based on finishing in the top six, or even top two". Yep that's going to happen.

Webber didn't wait until the end of parachute payments to embark on a rebuild last time did he.

Throwing everything into a promotion will require investment in this squad I feel, need a DM and a wide player at the very least, problem is the finance chap said no spending without selling, so who are we going to sell? Max Aarons? That isn't going to help with a promotion bid is it.

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1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

If we sign a 21 year centre back in this window then I think that's a sign that we're embarking on a rebuild for next season rather than chasing a play-off promotion this season.

No it isn't. It's no different to us signing Tzolis, or Sargent or McCallum. A player that the current manager is thought to be able to improve. 

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2 minutes ago, YellaYellowYella said:

No it isn't. It's no different to us signing Tzolis, or Sargent or McCallum. A player that the current manager is thought to be able to improve. 

It is when our extremely limited budget could be spent on a player to improve our XI immediately.

If we're serious about promotion I'd suggest we need a DM and a winger capable of improving the first XI.

Our finance director has already said the pot is empty unless we sell. If there is a little bit of money we could use it to finance a loan fee for a player who strengthen our promotion bid.

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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Just now, TeemuVanBasten said:

It is when our extremely limited budget could be spent on a player to improve our XI immediately.

If we're serious about promotion I'd suggest we need a DM and a winger capable of improving the first XI.

Yes but what you think we need to mount a promotion push and what Webber/Wagner think could well be two very different things. Doesn't indicate an abandonment of promotion ambitions.

Besides, CB is the one position we don't actually need in a rebuild given everyone in that position remains under contract. 

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1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

If we sign a 21 year centre back in this window then I think that's a sign that we're embarking on a rebuild for next season rather than chasing a play-off promotion this season.

Not saying I'd be against that, in fact I think that might be the smarter thing to do, cut our cloth, shed high earners and have a reset. Just that it means Pukki will be gone in the summer and that saddens me greatly.

Seems an odd investment to me, we have Omobalidele, Tomkinson, Hill, and Warner, all tall fast strong 20 year old centre backs.  Plus didn’t we also sign a 19 year old centre back from Cortiba….   Unless we think a couple of them are no where near it seems there are other areas which need investment.

Edited by Newtopia

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3 hours ago, Newtopia said:

Seems an odd investment to me, we have Omobalidele, Tomkinson, Hill, and Warner, all tall fast strong 20 year old centre backs.  Plus didn’t we also sign a 19 year old centre back from Cortiba….   Unless we think a couple of them are no where near it seems there are other areas which need investment.

Or - as is most likely the case - it's nonsense. 

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9 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Webber didn't wait until the end of parachute payments to embark on a rebuild last time did he.

Throwing everything into a promotion will require investment in this squad I feel, need a DM and a wide player at the very least, problem is the finance chap said no spending without selling, so who are we going to sell? Max Aarons? That isn't going to help with a promotion bid is it.

We sold Maddison, spent very little, and still got promoted in the same season. Webber has been very clear in his statements that promotion is the priority. 

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I know nothing about him and if he is a regular in their team. I wouldn't be against signing him and loaning him back to Derby in case they need him in their push for promotion 😉

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Like Newtopia has said I also think it would be a surprise signing. We do need a new CB and have several coming through the academy, but if we sign one I think they would be ready to break into the first team straight away (aged ~26), as we want to get rid of Gibson because he’s no longer the player he was in our last promotion season, and Hanley is ageing and starting to be a liability

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4 hours ago, horsefly said:

We sold Maddison, spent very little, and still got promoted in the same season. Webber has been very clear in his statements that promotion is the priority. 

I wouldn't say £15m is "very little", it's more than we've spent this season. 

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14 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Webber didn't wait until the end of parachute payments to embark on a rebuild last time did he.

Throwing everything into a promotion will require investment in this squad I feel, need a DM and a wide player at the very least, problem is the finance chap said no spending without selling, so who are we going to sell? Max Aarons? That isn't going to help with a promotion bid is it.

No, it does not require investment. Other than a new coach who is now in place. Whereas you further added "embarking on a rebuild for next season". So where is te money for that rebuilt to come from, if we don't have it now, as you claim.  Wagner has shown that this squad is capable of winning, and winning well. There is money for a couple of loanees, if only the money from Ramsey, and the knowledge that money will come in from the sale of Rashica and even possibly Tzolis No club is going to announce it is awash with money. And there is no certainty of where we will be this time next year so it is absurd to try to reign in a winning team (if it is at all possible) on the basis we will do it next year.  "Right lads, we are one nil down at half time in the FA Cup semi final, so I want you to not bother and we'll give it a go next season"

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47 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I wouldn't say £15m is "very little", it's more than we've spent this season. 

According to transfermarkt.com we spent 5.45m euros in the season we sold Maddison (2018/19). Where did you get the figure £15m? (not a confrontational question btw, I'm just curious if the usually reliable transfermarkt got it wrong).

https://www.transfermarkt.com/norwich-city/transfers/verein/1123/saison_id/2018

Just to add for all those who think we should not strive for promotion this season. In 2018/19 we sold players to the value of 35m euros and still posted a loss of £38m for the season https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/norwich-city-losses-2018-19-finances-premier-league/?zephr_sso_ott=ddMRQt

Had Farke not produced a miracle that season (something a lot less likely now as every season sees the gap grow between PL and the Champs), I hate to think where we would have been without the cash injected from promotion.

Edited by horsefly

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I doubt we're in for any 7-figure purchases this window, particularly not a young CB with Tomkinson just having gone out on loan.

I also wouldn't expect to hear much about incoming before Cantwell, Hugill and Rashica are off the books.

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12 minutes ago, horsefly said:

According to transfermarkt.com we spent 5.45m euros in the season we sold Maddison (2018/19). Where did you get the figure £15m? (not a confrontational question btw, I'm just curious if the usually reliable transfermarkt got it wrong).

https://www.transfermarkt.com/norwich-city/transfers/verein/1123/saison_id/2018

Just to add for all those who think we should not strive for promotion this season. In 2018/19 we sold players to the value of 35m euros and still posted a loss of £38m for the season https://www.sportspromedia.com/news/norwich-city-losses-2018-19-finances-premier-league/?zephr_sso_ott=ddMRQt

Had Farke not produced a miracle that season (something a lot less likely now as every season sees the gap grow between PL and the Champs), I hate to think where we would have been without the cash injected from promotion.

According to the post-balance sheet accounts we spent £4.2m on buying/acquiring Buendia (a fee), Pukki (free), Krul (free) and Leitner (a fee) and paying for the loans of Rhodes and Passlack. With a possible £9m in add-ons. But that £4.2m figure does not include however much we paid for Marshall - presumably that happened before the end of the financial year - and however much we paid for Heise in the January window.

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2 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

According to the post-balance sheet accounts we spent £4.2m on buying/acquiring Buendia (a fee), Pukki (free), Krul (free) and Leitner (a fee) and paying for the loans of Rhodes and Passlack. With a possible £9m in add-ons. But that £4.2m figure does not include however much we paid for Marshall - presumably that happened before the end of the financial year - and however much we paid for Heise in the January window.

Perhaps it was the 9m in add-ons that TVB is referring to. But those, I assume would have been conditional on clauses relating to promotion, appearances etc.

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4 hours ago, PockthorpePete said:

No, it does not require investment. Other than a new coach who is now in place. 

Everybody getting way too excited by one game. Yes it was our best performance of the season, it was also Prestons fourth consecutive home defeat. 

I'm pleased we've got Wagner too but there are still some big gaps in quality in our squad, we've no fit defensive midfielders and a shortage of quality wide players for a start.

Let's not forget we managed to fail to score from 20 corners against Blackburn. 

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Paul Warne was asked about this and said he knew nothing about it. Also said he spoke to Norwich's "head of football operations" just a couple of hours prior to the press conference, so unless he's being kept very much in the dark, this is not true. Also said the only contact anyone had made over Derby's players occurred early in the window and was a speculative enquiry.

Sounds like we can put this one to bed. 

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36 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Everybody getting way too excited by one game. Yes it was our best performance of the season, it was also Prestons fourth consecutive home defeat. 

I'm pleased we've got Wagner too but there are still some big gaps in quality in our squad, we've no fit defensive midfielders and a shortage of quality wide players for a start.

Let's not forget we managed to fail to score from 20 corners against Blackburn. 

You're like a lot of football fans in that you've got no idea about how likely a team is to score from a corner. Enlighten yourself by reading the article below. Having 20 corners in one game and not scoring from one of them really is no big deal at all.

https://sqaf.club/goals-from-corners-stats/

 

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16 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

You're like a lot of football fans in that you've got no idea about how likely a team is to score from a corner. Enlighten yourself by reading the article below. Having 20 corners in one game and not scoring from one of them really is no big deal at all.

https://sqaf.club/goals-from-corners-stats/

Let's make it interesting then and have thrown ins down the ends. 

Keeper tips it around the post, throw in from right next to the post.

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I mean, I think it makes sense if we sign him even if we do go up next season. After all, last time round we signed 21yr old Kabak on loan. Why not own the player?

There is another aspect to this too, financially. If you have a look about, generally, players move for less money in the championship and lower leagues. The same players, going to premier league clubs would see their prices increase. I sort of see it as a sort of tax. Clubs have more money, EFL clubs want to get more of that. If a EPL club comes knocking, the player in question might be worth more than clubs thought so the price goes up.

I always think Toney is a good example. £5m to a championship club, but Peterborough clearly thought he was premier league able, so wanted double upon promotion. If a prem club was to go for a top League 1 striker, you are probably looking at £8-10m right off the bat. None of this £5m+£5m. 

Additionally, options. Last time out we had five CB's in the premier league. We currently have three with senior experience worth of note, with further cover offered by Byram and Sorensen. Looking at more CB's could well be looking for that fourth of fifth option as well as the possibility of Byram not being offered new terms and leaving in the summer. It also means if Tomkins or any others need to be loaned to clubs for more experience next season, we have the flexibility to do that with a young player who already has lower league experience under his belt.

And that's before looking at added value going forwards etc.

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1 hour ago, chicken said:

I mean, I think it makes sense if we sign him even if we do go up next season. After all, last time round we signed 21yr old Kabak on loan. Why not own the player?

There is another aspect to this too, financially. If you have a look about, generally, players move for less money in the championship and lower leagues. The same players, going to premier league clubs would see their prices increase. I sort of see it as a sort of tax. Clubs have more money, EFL clubs want to get more of that. If a EPL club comes knocking, the player in question might be worth more than clubs thought so the price goes up.

I always think Toney is a good example. £5m to a championship club, but Peterborough clearly thought he was premier league able, so wanted double upon promotion. If a prem club was to go for a top League 1 striker, you are probably looking at £8-10m right off the bat. None of this £5m+£5m. 

Additionally, options. Last time out we had five CB's in the premier league. We currently have three with senior experience worth of note, with further cover offered by Byram and Sorensen. Looking at more CB's could well be looking for that fourth of fifth option as well as the possibility of Byram not being offered new terms and leaving in the summer. It also means if Tomkins or any others need to be loaned to clubs for more experience next season, we have the flexibility to do that with a young player who already has lower league experience under his belt.

And that's before looking at added value going forwards etc.

Plus you can't always count on some of the younger players making the grade, and not fulfilling original potential.

Think he's highly rated so hope we can add him in the hope he can step up and replace Hanly or Gibson. Personally was hoping we would go in for this Porteous chap from Hibs, but can't see that happening

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Posters on here have been complaining that we don’t have five CBs for years. Would this keep them happy?

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