Would you sell Gibson & Hanley?

[nutty nigel 7,509]

4 hours ago, Indy said:

Purely hypothetical but if a decent offer can in for either would you sell? Or are they vital part of the squad?

Could we rely on Sorensen, Omobamdele & Tomkinson and would they be any worse than we’ve seen this season?

Not now but the next centre half has to be a step up. I wouldn't want to go into another season with these two being first choice.

Indy, make an old man happy and start the same thread about Kenny. Or maybe TVB could do a poll in him...

🙃🙃🙃

[Indy 3,283]

1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

Not now but the next centre half has to be a step up. I wouldn't want to go into another season with these two being first choice.

Indy, make an old man happy and start the same thread about Kenny. Or maybe TVB could do a poll in him...

🙃🙃🙃

We’ll never sell McLean, he’ll become a coach and in 2035 will be our manager!😉

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

4 hours ago, jaberry2 said:

Gibson yes if any value there. 

His uncle might pay £1m for him, other than that can't see where money would come from.

[unique 434]

Both. In a heartbeat.

[Yellow Green Army 237]

I’d be looking at some of the Blackburn CB’s after the last game. Thought they were superb for them, no nonsense, kept everything out and had to deal with an early setback with the substitution. (Hyam and Phillips) I think it was.

[Newtopia 517]

Gibson, I love his attitude, and he left footed, which is a rare commodity for a centre back.  Hanley screwed up last week, but he was playing on that left side, so if he leaves we need a solid replacement.

Omobalidele and Tomkinson seem like good players, but they are very young and inexperienced.  To give context, Godfrey still looks young and inexperienced, and he has been playing regularly for 3 or 4 years longer than these guys.

With respect to Hanley I think as Norwich fans we are bonkers.  He is a Scottish international who defends with all of his heart, and he is flipping rapid.  If you talk to opposition fans they all rate him.  Let him go and watch as our replacement centre back struggles to be anywhere as good.

So in conclusion we can sell any of them, but if we lose Hanley we need to spend Millions on an experienced operator to help support the young guys through.

[Keith Scott 243]

Yep to both. One of the most calamitous centre back pairings in the league. The fact one of them is the captain only exacerbates the situation.

All the best. Big Keith Scott.

[Ken Hairy 3,759]

Sell them? I'd be happy them going for free to free up wages.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

I’d sell Gibson in a second, I’d keep Hanley for a sub when opposition are throwing balls into the box repeatedly, he has pace and can generally be a defensive head when needed. That’s basically it though so cameos only. Shame as he seems like a good bloke, but in our first prem season under DF let’s not forget he was 4th choice centre back and only used due to injury crisis. The fact he is now our first choice CB tells a bit of a story in itself about our trajectory and signings since. 

[mannings bandy legs 385]

Wagner will have had a week to see and work with this lot. If come Saturday the team picked is much the same as it has been,I feel we are FU(£€D this season!!!!

[chicken 2,604]

4 hours ago, Barham Blitz said:

I'm in a minority in that I would keep Gibson and sell Hanley.

Omo is a more natural Hanley replacement and plays on the right.  We would then have two centre backs who can actually pass a ball without thinking about it for an age.

The problem is, Gibson gives the ball away as much if not more than Hanley. Mackay was less able than Hanley with the ball at his feet, but with Fleming, they were a well balanced pair. Sometimes you need someone who is a great "stopper" alongside someone who can play the ball out.

Man Utd had successful sides built on that idea. Rio was by far the better passer and less rugged and direct in defending than Vidic for example.

We need a LCB no matter what really, even with Gibson, as has been proven this season, when he's been inconsistent to the point of making regular mistakes, we are forced to play without a left footed LCB, not that it's the be all and end all.

I think folks forget that the last promotion season, our defence had more time because of having Skipp alongside still having Tettey, with McLean, Vrancic and Rupp. All hard workers when we don't have the ball.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

39 minutes ago, chicken said:

The problem is, Gibson gives the ball away as much if not more than Hanley. Mackay was less able than Hanley with the ball at his feet, but with Fleming, they were a well balanced pair. Sometimes you need someone who is a great "stopper" alongside someone who can play the ball out.

Man Utd had successful sides built on that idea. Rio was by far the better passer and less rugged and direct in defending than Vidic for example.

We need a LCB no matter what really, even with Gibson, as has been proven this season, when he's been inconsistent to the point of making regular mistakes, we are forced to play without a left footed LCB, not that it's the be all and end all.

I think folks forget that the last promotion season, our defence had more time because of having Skipp alongside still having Tettey, with McLean, Vrancic and Rupp. All hard workers when we don't have the ball.

Agree re Gibson. Seen as a good ball player but aside from a small number of genuinely incisive passes over a few seasons I see the same thing week in and out from him. He is very slow and lingers n the ball, while gesturing with his hand that players need to find towards him. I watched last league game on 2/1/23 and he did it about 6-7 times only to pass to the nearest player and gain nothing except loss of fast ball movement, allowing the oppo midfield and defence to be organised and ready to intercept any forward ball or run. I think in general we held Into the bell for too long under smith and Gibson was the worst at this 

[HB1989 27]

Is this a serious question? People need to realise that you win and lose a game in midfield.

Just how bad does Liverpool’s defence look now because they have lost Wijnaldum and coupled with the fact that their midfield is past it and out of form. Van Dijk and Matip have not turned into awful players other night and that they should be selling them now if a decent offer comes in.

Dimi, Gibson and Hanley were brilliant in the 20/21 season because they had a certain Oli Skipp protecting them. Wouldn’t matter who we have at the back with no protection. Sort our midfield out by getting a capable DM in and our defence will perform better. 

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

47 minutes ago, HB1989 said:

Is this a serious question? People need to realise that you win and lose a game in midfield.

Just how bad does Liverpool’s defence look now because they have lost Wijnaldum and coupled with the fact that their midfield is past it and out of form. Van Dijk and Matip have not turned into awful players other night and that they should be selling them now if a decent offer comes in.

Dimi, Gibson and Hanley were brilliant in the 20/21 season because they had a certain Oli Skipp protecting them. Wouldn’t matter who we have at the back with no protection. Sort our midfield out by getting a capable DM in and our defence will perform better. 

I think most of the views are based on how poor a lot of the passes and decisions being made by both are and the number of unforced errors that we are seeing. Agree that a good defensive midfielder protects and filters out a lot of the threat but some of the errors made are self inflicted. I wouldn’t sell without a replacement coming in and selling both would be very destabilising, but neither have really shown they’re at the required level we aspire to reaching so we should be looking very seriously at replacements in the summer at least 

[chicken 2,604]

2 hours ago, HB1989 said:

Is this a serious question? People need to realise that you win and lose a game in midfield.

Just how bad does Liverpool’s defence look now because they have lost Wijnaldum and coupled with the fact that their midfield is past it and out of form. Van Dijk and Matip have not turned into awful players other night and that they should be selling them now if a decent offer comes in.

Dimi, Gibson and Hanley were brilliant in the 20/21 season because they had a certain Oli Skipp protecting them. Wouldn’t matter who we have at the back with no protection. Sort our midfield out by getting a capable DM in and our defence will perform better. 

I did note that in my post, and I have made the point of saying that our midfield has been an issue since Webber and Farke arrived. It's also not just the DM, it's the entire midfield. In fairness, when we played 4-2-3-1 with Buendia and Cantwell wide (with Hernandez as back up), with Stiepermann behind Pukki, we had players willing to run and work hard too, they gave protection as well as decent forward play. Especially with Buendia in the last season he played for us. 

That may sound a bit harsh, as we have made loan signings that have improved it, but generally, we haven't found a young central midfield player that our midfield can be built around for a good two to three seasons or more. We had Reed and Skipp on loan, both good players that did well for us, but then had to return to parent clubs. Reed was seemingly out of our price bracket at the time at least.

We must have had at least a dozen central midfielders in that time. Tettey was the only one really retained from the pre-Webber-Farke-lution. So:
Tettey, Skipp, Reed, Trybull, Vrancic, Leitner, Lees-Melou, McLean, Normann, Gilmore, Sara, Nunez, Hayden, Sorensen, Gibbs...

Off the top of my head. I'm not including AM, mainly those problematic double pivot positions. If you look at those players, how many have cemented their place in the side, how many others looked good in flashes but never managed to make the position their own. Obviously the latest signings still deserve some time... but McLean has been the only really consistent player over that time frame really, being a regular pretty much since he joined.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,251]

7 hours ago, chicken said:

I did note that in my post, and I have made the point of saying that our midfield has been an issue since Webber and Farke arrived. It's also not just the DM, it's the entire midfield. In fairness, when we played 4-2-3-1 with Buendia and Cantwell wide (with Hernandez as back up), with Stiepermann behind Pukki, we had players willing to run and work hard too, they gave protection as well as decent forward play. Especially with Buendia in the last season he played for us. 

That may sound a bit harsh, as we have made loan signings that have improved it, but generally, we haven't found a young central midfield player that our midfield can be built around for a good two to three seasons or more. We had Reed and Skipp on loan, both good players that did well for us, but then had to return to parent clubs. Reed was seemingly out of our price bracket at the time at least.

We must have had at least a dozen central midfielders in that time. Tettey was the only one really retained from the pre-Webber-Farke-lution. So:
Tettey, Skipp, Reed, Trybull, Vrancic, Leitner, Lees-Melou, McLean, Normann, Gilmore, Sara, Nunez, Hayden, Sorensen, Gibbs...

Off the top of my head. I'm not including AM, mainly those problematic double pivot positions. If you look at those players, how many have cemented their place in the side, how many others looked good in flashes but never managed to make the position their own. Obviously the latest signings still deserve some time... but McLean has been the only really consistent player over that time frame really, being a regular pretty much since he joined.

Off topic, but he’d have been good for us at this level I think. 

[Ulfotto 623]

These threads are pretty worrying to be honest if we find ourselves still in the championship after the end of parachute payments we will need to be very careful about giving away good championship players I would put Gibson and Hanley in that category.

Any remember the days when we sold Jason Shackell and replaced him with Dean Stefanovic probably one of the worst decisions in the club’s history. Akinbiyi and Cureton. The club cannot afford to lose good players.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Ulfotto

[The Bristol Nest 513]

Hanley is our new Russ. 

[lake district canary 4,531]

8 hours ago, chicken said:

I did note that in my post, and I have made the point of saying that our midfield has been an issue since Webber and Farke arrived. It's also not just the DM, it's the entire midfield. In fairness, when we played 4-2-3-1 with Buendia and Cantwell wide (with Hernandez as back up), with Stiepermann behind Pukki, we had players willing to run and work hard too, they gave protection as well as decent forward play. Especially with Buendia in the last season he played for us.

When you put it like that, that forward midfield sounds so balanced. That midfield three was very good together, with Stiepy being the strong lynchpin with Cantwell and Buendia buzzing around, with Hernandez as an option. No wonder Pukki scored so many with those behind him.

[Danke bitte 965]

10 hours ago, HB1989 said:

Is this a serious question? People need to realise that you win and lose a game in midfield.

Just how bad does Liverpool’s defence look now because they have lost Wijnaldum and coupled with the fact that their midfield is past it and out of form. Van Dijk and Matip have not turned into awful players other night and that they should be selling them now if a decent offer comes in.

Dimi, Gibson and Hanley were brilliant in the 20/21 season because they had a certain Oli Skipp protecting them. Wouldn’t matter who we have at the back with no protection. Sort our midfield out by getting a capable DM in and our defence will perform better. 

Excellent post and I wonder if @Petriix might have something to add to this re: formation and the apparent soft centre we’ve had since… I can remember (bar Skipp)

[Petriix 2,834]

18 minutes ago, Danke bitte said:

Excellent post and I wonder if @Petriix might have something to add to this re: formation and the apparent soft centre we’ve had since… I can remember (bar Skipp)

I've said it ever since we switched to 4-3-3 and I was even ranting about it earlier in Farke's tenure that the defensive issues were rooted in midfield. Yes Skipp was very good for us, but it was as much about the system as the personnel.

With the latter implementation of the 4-2-3-1 the fundamental structure out of possession was all about making us hard to break down. The AM roles were crucial to this with Buendia and Cantwell working hard to track back whenever possession was lost and Pukki himself having the awareness to chase all the way back when one of the AMs was ahead of him.

Playing the wide attackers higher and wider in the 4-3-3 leaves a huge hole on each flank. This is partially mitigated by sacrificing the number 10, but that causes other problems in my opinion because there is now a creative hole behind the striker.

You're left with three central midfielders trying to provide the central pivot, cover the wide areas and get forward into the 10 position. Trying to cover too much space inevitably leads to positional errors and overloads.

The other real issue is how defence links to midfield in possession. There is a fundamental disjoint there where the CBs are reluctant to pass into feet and when they do the ball always comes straight back. Under Farke's 4-2-3-1 the wide AMs came looking for the ball which created space for the 10 and Pukki to run in behind. In the 4-3-3 the only option seems to be hitting the channels. It's a viable tactic if you've got dangerous wingers (or inside forwards) who can use their individual skill to create goals, but less so if it's Hernandez.

So, yes, I think the defence is largely ok and the midfield is our area of concern. The solution is to revert to Farke's system. But fans always seem to blame the defender who is exposed 2 on 1 rather than questioning who should have been picking up the spare man... 

[rock bus 850]

36 minutes ago, Petriix said:

So, yes, I think the defence is largely ok and the midfield is our area of concern. The solution is to revert to Farke's system. But fans always seem to blame the defender who is exposed 2 on 1 rather than questioning who should have been picking up the spare man... 

Really good post and I agree with almost all of it with the exception of the last point.

A better system will certainly help the team but we also need defenders being switched on for the entire game and not making so many stupid mistakes (which I think is often due to complacency in terms of Hanley and confidence for Gibson - Mcallum and Giannoulis are just erratic).

The system played no part in Blackburns goal.....it was just Hanley making an idiotic mistake. 

[Canarywary 104]

I find it utterly baffling that so many people think we should get rid of Hanley - how many better CBs are there in the Champ right now? I think CBs have the sort of role, much like keepers, where people tend to only notice the mistakes, and therefore every club's fanbase is excessively critical of their own CBs. I bet if you asked all the fans across the Champ, they'd all say the grass was greener at other clubs in terms of their defenders.

[Ray 111]

I find it interesting that a defender (including the keeper) makes a mistake (e.g. a missed hit pass) and is castigated, when there are another six or seven players on the pitch who miss hit passes and shots throughout the game and very little is said.  It happens, obviously we would all rather it didn’t, but then I would also rather all the passes our midfield make find their target and all the shots taken by our forwards are at least on target.  Grant Hanley in particular has been our saviour on many occasions and often makes last ditch/covering tackles and often, without thought for his own safety, puts his body on the line for the team.

In general, and in my opinion, defenders make fewer mistakes than midfielders and forwards and typically are rewarded less, both in praise and in their pocket.

Such is life I guess.

[Canarywary 104]

Exactly. If Pukki makes a heavy touch under pressure and loses possession - no harm done, Gibson does it and potentially the whole match result is placed at his feet. How many CBs below the elite (Van Dijk, Cannavaro etc) are capable of never making mistakes?

Edited January 12, 2023 by Canarywary

[Petriix 2,834]

2 hours ago, rock bus said:

The system played no part in Blackburns goal.....it was just Hanley making an idiotic mistake. 

I actually disagree. The goal was ultimately scored by someone running unmarked into the box. Maybe you could blame McLean for running into the goalmouth rather than covering the man, but someone should have been tracking him.