Big summer clear out

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

Lots of contracts up at the end of the season and a real chance to trim the wage bill, shift the deadwood, move on those who have lost the hunger and sign a few hungry up n coming players to suit Wagner’s style. 
 

Am pretty sure Webber agrees which is why he won’t sign anyone this January but bank the cash and just let things play out. It’s also why he said DW won’t be judged on this season. 
 

And. You know what? I find myself strangely happy about it. I think Krul, Pukki wt al have had their day and we need the new stars to emerge. Let’s hope board room gets a shake up too - as that is what inflicts the ceiling we can’t break

[norfolkngood 1,086]

13 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Lots of contracts up at the end of the season and a real chance to trim the wage bill, shift the deadwood, move on those who have lost the hunger and sign a few hungry up n coming players to suit Wagner’s style. 
 

Am pretty sure Webber agrees which is why he won’t sign anyone this January but bank the cash and just let things play out. It’s also why he said DW won’t be judged on this season. 
 

And. You know what? I find myself strangely happy about it. I think Krul, Pukki wt al have had their day and we need the new stars to emerge. Let’s hope board room gets a shake up too - as that is what inflicts the ceiling we can’t break

i Agree sad really we have spent all that money and need to rebuild ,

i would even replace Hanley and Gibson we have let in goals even when we have been successful

the whole squad needs a shake up 

 

 

 

 

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

It’s appalling given that we are back at square one with little to show for it. Most will leave on a free and not many left who we could sell to fund incoming.

But it is what it is. And I would rather watch 11 young players fighting with all they have than a bunch of journey men going through the motions. This season has not been much fun. 
 

Time for a new chapter 

[nutty nigel 7,506]

12 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

It’s appalling given that we are back at square one with little to show for it. Most will leave on a free and not many left who we could sell to fund incoming.

But it is what it is. And I would rather watch 11 young players fighting with all they have than a bunch of journey men going through the motions. This season has not been much fun. 
 

Time for a new chapter 

We are not. We have plenty to show for it.

[lake district canary 4,531]

I don't see it as a mass clear out and would rather think of it as an evolution, with young players coming through......a young squad full of running to play the Wagner style - Rowe, Thompkinson, Omobamidele, Mumba, Idah, Sargent, Nunez, Sara, Gibbs, Springett - all 23 or under that's a whole team if you add Gunn to it.

So losing one or two and replacing them would be natural evolution of the squad, not a mass clear out.

 

[repman 633]

It's always tempting to rip it up and start again when you fail but the club will also see a squad that they view as good enough to compete at the top end of the championship, as well as both fan and financial pressure to return to the PL as soon as possible. I think a lot of the problems we see now set in after our first PL relegation in 19/20, where I think we got our transfer strategy wrong. You can group pretty much all the signings into 2 groups.

Depth: Sorensen, Placheta, Dowell
Expensive prime age players: Gibson, Hugill

The only player who was both young and a clear first teamer was Skipp, who was obviously only on loan.

Last season's recruitment wasn't much better, 4 loanees who, when fit, were first teamers (whether they should've been is another question). However it has at least returned Sargent as a solid contributor, Rashica we might be able to get some resale value out of, and Tzolis seems to be a bit of a lottery ticket right now. 

[Gordon Bennett 780]

[baldy09 155]

11 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I don't see it as a mass clear out and would rather think of it as an evolution, with young players coming through......a young squad full of running to play the Wagner style - Rowe, Thompkinson, Omobamidele, Mumba, Idah, Sargent, Nunez, Sara, Gibbs, Springett - all 23 or under that's a whole team if you add Gunn to it.

So losing one or two and replacing them would be natural evolution of the squad, not a mass clear out.

 

Totally agree and plus financial limits also will dictate 

[hogesar 9,611]

11 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I don't see it as a mass clear out and would rather think of it as an evolution, with young players coming through......a young squad full of running to play the Wagner style - Rowe, Thompkinson, Omobamidele, Mumba, Idah, Sargent, Nunez, Sara, Gibbs, Springett - all 23 or under that's a whole team if you add Gunn to it.

So losing one or two and replacing them would be natural evolution of the squad, not a mass clear out.

 

Yeah I think that's fair. Ultimately the ages of the players dictate that some change would be required and in a way we are fortunate that we don't have older players tied down on long deals where we wouldn't be able to shift them, that would be far more of a problem.

[norfolkngood 1,086]

11 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I don't see it as a mass clear out and would rather think of it as an evolution, with young players coming through......a young squad full of running to play the Wagner style - Rowe, Thompkinson, Omobamidele, Mumba, Idah, Sargent, Nunez, Sara, Gibbs, Springett - all 23 or under that's a whole team if you add Gunn to it.

So losing one or two and replacing them would be natural evolution of the squad, not a mass clear out.

 

they are the players and some cheaper lower league 

often you get better results 

it is the Team not Individuals if we can get that team going again 

our Squad is full of individuals all playerswho should be good enough but the team is not playing as a whole 

[canarybubbles 1,914]

Things are looking up.

1) Dean Smith is history.

2) Wagner talks a good game. Let's hope he can deliver the same.

3) Webber seems to have realised that picking fights with the fans and freezing out the local media is not only petty but also very damaging, and seems to be trying to rebuild bridges.

4) The never-ending soap opera of Todd Cantwell may soon be going off our screens.

5) The signs are that Wagner will finally make a decision regarding Pukki or Sargent.

6) Our players actually looked like they wanted to play against Blackburn.

Good God, I'm almost optimistic.

Edited January 11, 2023 by canarybubbles

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

Then I will bring you down to earth. We have los Ramsey, our most creative player, and Hayden. Todd is off. That means a seriously weakened squad for the second half of a season already misfiring. It’s a big ask…

[stratton canary 134]

7 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Then I will bring you down to earth. We have los Ramsey, our most creative player, and Hayden. Todd is off. That means a seriously weakened squad for the second half of a season already misfiring. It’s a big ask…

Midfield has been weak for years! 

[chicken 2,604]

2 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Then I will bring you down to earth. We have los Ramsey, our most creative player, and Hayden. Todd is off. That means a seriously weakened squad for the second half of a season already misfiring. It’s a big ask…

I think it's fair to say that Hayden hasn't played that many games for us really, and clearly still wasn't 100% fit, even he issued an apology over that. I'm not sure we'll miss him more than we have had to cope with already if that makes sense? 

Ramsey is a bit different, certainly looked good in forward positions though still young and as such a bit inconsistent.

I actually think Gibbs is going to be key now. I feel for Rowe because how things have gone this season, I suspect he would have seen a lot of football.

Again, thanks to @Feedthewolf
 

Quote

2023 Pukki, Cantwell, Byram, Hernandez, Sinani, Martin, Dowell, Hugill, Rose (+1), Dickson-Peters, McGovern, Hayden (loan) (12 players, 1 with an extra year)
2024 Aarons, McCallum, Płacheta, Omotoye, Krul, Mair, Barden (+1), Gibson, Giannoulis, Sørensen (+1), Idah, McCracken (12 players, 2 with an extra year)

I think we can probably say of those, Hugill, Martin, McGovern, Hayden and Ramsey are certainly gone for varying reasons. You would have to think no smoke without fire for Cantwell adding to the suggestion he has previously turned down new contract offers. Add to that Pukki wanted to leave last summer. Those all seem pretty certain.

That really leaves the youngsters, who are yet to contribute to first team affairs and Hernandez, Sinani, Dowell and Byram.

On the face of it, all players that could contribute to the squad, but as I have pointed out several times this season, not players you want to see being relied upon for a promotion push these days. Byram is certainly quality, but he is so injury prone which is a real shame as without that he'd be premier league quality and would probably have never come to us. I can see them letting Byram go if they feel they can use his wages better elsewhere. 

I still think some of the other three might be offered new contracts. Especially with Wagner coming in.

When you add to that the number of players out of contract the following summer... There will be a number of new contracts going out I should imagine. There are quite a number of players that hit the last year of their contracts come the summer.

It's easy to say that there'll be a big changeover, but I'm not sure. We need some new first team players, but we equally can't afford to replace the squad, and most of those players listed are squad players. Especially right now. Pukki is the only real member of the out of contract this summer contingent that can truly say he is a first team regular. Others have threatened to be, or have but have since fallen from that position.

Of the others, Aarons, Krul, Giannoulis all seem the obvious ones that could be moved on in the summer for fees, though Krul may not demand a big one. However, again, with McGovern also likely to leave, and probably retire, we're going to need a back up keeper or two. Add to that losing Aarons and Gianoulis with Byram also out of contract, we could be looking at a couple of new players in those positions even with Mumba returning.

We can't deal with that much change in one go across the squad with the supposed limited funds that we have right now. Not unless we have seemingly hit upon a rich vein of free transfers and cheap players. Perhaps this rumoured Brazilian can play full back?

[BroadstairsR 2,137]

Two years of parachute money for a squad, many of whom can walk in the Summer?

Something doesn't ring true.

Wagner needs to be a miracle man. A chance in the play-offs is essential, as is a steady supply of youth.

I think we  have one or two bubbling under and a couple of loanees, especially Mumba, show promise.

It's not good. Over to you Mr. America.

[Duncan Edwards 2,216]

Based on nothing but instinct, of all those out of contract, I’d give Pukki another year. I don’t buy that he’s “done” we just haven’t been playing to his strengths, which, when you have a limited arsenal, seems silly.

That said, I’d be letting Dowell go because I’m not sure he’s got the ability to load the gun.

As for the rest? There’ll be some that would keep Onel. I don’t really see it. Cantwell is an enigma of a Rubik’s cube somewhere lost in one of those M.Night Shyamalan films and the others?

Id be tempted to keep TD-P as I’ve heard how his coaches talk of him. That said, he’s clearly behind some others, so is it just a bit of chat?

And yet there are others I’d bite any hand off to offload. Gibson and even Hanley. It’s just Rick after Rick unfortunately. Problem being the elephant in the room, we need a reset but we’ve spunked the money already. We now need magic sack Webber and not thinking too hard and being pragmatic Webber. Does he still have it? 🤷🏻‍♂️

[BroadstairsR 2,137]

An interesting  watch on YouTube: @How to save a dying football club ... Burnley

They had 63 m pounds debt when relegated. They managed to get rid of all the high earners, including some very high profile performers leaving them with just ten in the squad., They replaced them with youngsters, including some from Belgium that Kompany had picked  and the manager was foremost in other choices. They have reduced the debt, but it is still quite big. Managed debt.

The players brought in were those that fitted Kompany's needs it is important to say.

The board stuck to a defined plan. They used parachute money with caution, buying young and relatively cheaply

Look at them now. A club destined to go the way of Sunderland or worse are now up there with a good chance of promotion to the PL at first shout, which they will no doubt approach with caution.

So much has been dependent on a good manager with a defined plan and playing system.

By contrast we have had Dean Smith who could not even come up with a recognisable playing style and Webber who seemingly p-sses the clubs money against the wall as never before and a board who seem to have given him a free-hand.

We have some decent players who form a better squad than their league position indicates. It contains a few promising youngers such as Sargent, Omo, Tomkinson, McCallam, Rowe, Gibbs and even Idah Our only hope for this season is that the manager can turn things around to gain a play-off position, even if it means also relying on players destined for the door, especially Pukki.

Let's hope Wagner proves to be out Kompany, 

If we fail, the end of the season will require a clean out for sure, although I'm hoping to get rid of the likes of Hugill, Sinani, Placheta and even Dowell asap.

Burnley were in a far worse position than we will ever be, yet look at the table now.

I'm anticipating a far better second half to the season than the first.

Edited January 12, 2023 by BroadstairsR

[Badger 2,405]

5 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

An interesting  watch on YouTube: @How to save a dying football club ... Burnley

The Burnley example should provide encouragement to us. As you say they were heavily in debt and had to offload most of their top players - they made £50 million profit in the transfer market to address this and replaced them relatively cheaply. Whether they will be up to premier league football remains to be seen.

It will be interesting to see what happens next year and whether they can avoid becoming another yo yo club, which is the most likely outcome, or whether they can find  a way to adapt their possession style in a way that Daniel Farke couldn't.

Their previous longevity  in the Premier League was based on  a pragmatic style of football on a  shoestring budget that we fans have shown little appetite for over the years. The big question is whether  they can survive  with a possession-based approach or indeed whether they will adopt a more pragmatic approach again (unlikely under Kompany)?

 

[hertfordyellow 460]

On 10/01/2023 at 20:56, norfolkngood said:

i Agree sad really we have spent all that money and need to rebuild ,

i would even replace Hanley and Gibson we have let in goals even when we have been successful

the whole squad needs a shake up 

 

 

 

 

Another reminder that we have brought in more than we have spent in the Webber era in terms of fees. This idea that we spent big doesn't stack up and we had to sell key players to invest. We haven't been particularly successful in recent seasons but when you fish in the markets we do, there are obvious risks of this. Buying potential (on wages we can afford) rather than fully fledged performers means you hedging your bets and taking a chance.

[norfolkngood 1,086]

8 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

Another reminder that we have brought in more than we have spent in the Webber era in terms of fees. This idea that we spent big doesn't stack up and we had to sell key players to invest. We haven't been particularly successful in recent seasons but when you fish in the markets we do, there are obvious risks of this. Buying potential (on wages we can afford) rather than fully fledged performers means you hedging your bets and taking a chance.

The Fees with Rashica and Tzolis were wasted money by webber 

in terms of helping the team 

Neither helped us stay up and neither helped us get out the league we are in now 

neither will get a profit for the club 

also they were bought when we needed a CDM and a AM more than anything 

the only player webber has signed recently is Gibbs and Maybe Sargent that will turn a profit 

 

[rock bus 850]

18 minutes ago, Badger said:

The Burnley example should provide encouragement to us. As you say they were heavily in debt and had to offload most of their top players - they made £50 million profit in the transfer market to address this and replaced them relatively cheaply. Whether they will be up to premier league football remains to be seen.

It will be interesting to see what happens next year and whether they can avoid becoming another yo yo club, which is the most likely outcome, or whether they can find  a way to adapt their possession style in a way that Daniel Farke couldn't.

Their previous longevity  in the Premier League was based on  a pragmatic style of football on a  shoestring budget that we fans have shown little appetite for over the years. The big question is whether  they can survive  with a possession-based approach or indeed whether they will adopt a more pragmatic approach again (unlikely under Kompany)?

 

The issue we have is that Webber has spent our premiership money so purely we dont have the players to generate £50m of transfer profit. We now have a group of expensive, highly paid flops and clubs wont be willing to pay premium money for them.

We need a rebuild but again it will have to be on a budget and with the hope we strike lucky and find another miracle like Maddison, Buendia or Pukki. 

[tricky974 61]

The problem we have is that a lot of our players are going out of contract and they have not been playing well, some of this is down to the previous management team, but the value of our players would have fallen, Aarons is probably one of our most valued players and he is not at the same value he has been previously, and is there anyone out there that is interested in our players where we can get the money in. 

The players that teams may want maybe the ones we don't want to get rid of.

[essex canary 490]

47 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

Another reminder that we have brought in more than we have spent in the Webber era in terms of fees. This idea that we spent big doesn't stack up and we had to sell key players to invest. We haven't been particularly successful in recent seasons but when you fish in the markets we do, there are obvious risks of this. Buying potential (on wages we can afford) rather than fully fledged performers means you hedging your bets and taking a chance.

Another possibility is that there are some that are truly successful professional gamblers and others who would like to think that they are albeit that they are not.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

We are in a desperate situation as we have a poor squad with little money, owners that have no money and the European / German Market is effectively shut to us due to Brexit. So far the South American investment is failing to produce the talent we require and we don't seem to look at lower leagues. Going to be tough without investment from our American friends and looking at his baseball team, doubt that is happening. Sometime though when it looks like tough the youngster take their chances...fingers crossed

[shefcanary 2,377]

9 hours ago, BroadstairsR said:

Two years of parachute money for a squad, many of whom can walk in the Summer?

Something doesn't ring true.

We have £65m of loans that currently have to be repaid by June 2024, which is secured on the parachute money. Sure, the club can roll over those loans a bit longer so freeing up cash to deal in the transfer market earlier, but we are told Smith & Jones don't like debt and want it repaid ASAP. However any "proper" business would merely seek an extended structured loan to replace the current ones, so freeing up the parachute money for transfer dealing.

Once Attanasio gains control I can envisage the loans will be rolled over allowing this, but cannot see this happening until next January's window earliest.

[nutty nigel 7,506]

@shefcanary

'any "proper" business' 

Really???

 

 

[Badger 2,405]

1 hour ago, rock bus said:

The issue we have is that Webber has spent our premiership money so purely we dont have the players to generate £50m of transfer profit. We now have a group of expensive, highly paid flops and clubs wont be willing to pay premium money for them.

We need a rebuild but again it will have to be on a budget and with the hope we strike lucky and find another miracle like Maddison, Buendia or Pukki. 

1. Our debt level is lower so there is not as immediate a need to generate revenue by player sales.

2. Burnley didn't spend £50 million, that was their sales - expenditure figure. Their sales were 73.5 million and they spent 24 million.

3. I'm pretty sure that we could generate £50 million pounds of player sales if we chose too - Sargent, Aarons, Rashica, Tzolis, Giannoulis would just about do it according to Transfermarket (which may not be that reliable but is at least objective). Only Aarons is a regular starter in their best position. I'd only be disappointed to see Sargent go - need to cash on  Aarons anyway as he enters the last year of his contract in the summer.

4. We probably differ on how much we need a rebuild anyway. I think that there is the potential to do a lot better with the squad that we have + we have not made much use of the loan market (for understandable reasons given the academy + size of squad) - Burnley have a smaller core squad + 5 loan players. Assuming we don't go up, I would expect us not to renew several contracts, and try to get rid of some of the peripheral players. I expect we will get decent fees for some players (e.g. Giannoulis, Aarons, Rashica). They will be replaced by academy players, loans and a couple of purchases.

[hertfordyellow 460]

1 hour ago, norfolkngood said:

The Fees with Rashica and Tzolis were wasted money by webber 

in terms of helping the team 

Neither helped us stay up and neither helped us get out the league we are in now 

neither will get a profit for the club 

also they were bought when we needed a CDM and a AM more than anything 

the only player webber has signed recently is Gibbs and Maybe Sargent that will turn a profit 

 

I didn't say anything to the contrary. You are arguing with yourself.

[hertfordyellow 460]

1 hour ago, essex canary said:

Another possibility is that there are some that are truly successful professional gamblers and others who would like to think that they are albeit that they are not.

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

[shefcanary 2,377]

1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

@shefcanary

'any "proper" business' 

Really???

 

 

Okay - "non-football"! The word was in quotes so was tongue in cheek.

Edited January 12, 2023 by shefcanary