Farke vs Wagner - difference?

[Canary Jedi 573]

Ok I’m being hugely stereotypical but they’re both German, both came from BD, both successful at Champ level, both failed at Premier League level … what can we expect that is different from Wagner vs what we experienced with Farke?

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

Farke's not as big on a press to turn the ball over compared to Wagner, who is probably more Klopp-lite than Farke-lite.

That's not to say Wagner's teams won't try to keep the ball at all, more that Farke's teams were less aggressive in grabbing the ball back and would try (and not always succeed) in maintaining a semblance of shape. Wagner's teams will be more in your face off the ball.

Farke's teams lasted well as they kept the ball and forced the opposition to keep chasing us. Wagner's teams will just chase anything that bloody moves. So, to sum up, Wagner will probably try to keep the ball as a primary defence, but he's a Klopp acolyte (remember also that he and Klopp were teammates as players at Mainz), so his teams will chase much harder to get it rather than purely focus on a shape.

Edited January 4, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[Nexus_Canary 1,016]

I for one hope he brings with him a solid German fitness training back.

We seem to have lost that edge, I guess the Pg tips and pasties regime shaved 30 mins off our peek.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Huddersfield actually stayed up and didn't have Emi Buendia...

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,131]

As much as I loved how we played under Farke with the ball I was often frustrated with how we played without it. It wasn't an issue at Championship level because we could keep the ball and pass it faster than the opposition could chase us down but that was not the case in the PL and our low intensity press and gentle jogging back style when countered often left me furious because we were just so easy to play through and create chances against.

If you watch any PL game every team either presses relentlessly and in a well organised way when they lose the ball or all 10 men sprint back as fast as the can to get behind it every time. We were the only side who ever let teams play through us with ease because we were just so passive without the ball. 

Wagner will get us pressing and trying to win every ball back and he tries to play good football with it as well so I think this is a positive move for us in terms of our match day tactics. I don't think Wagner is as good of a coach as Farke, nor will he have a better career in the game. But I think for where we find ourselves right now trying to gain promotion from the Championship and stay in the EPL I think he's a better fit to be honest in how his teams go about things. If we go up, stay up and build a decent mid table EPL level team then I'd look at bringing back Farke or someone like him. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

40 minutes ago, Canary Jedi said:

Ok I’m being hugely stereotypical but they’re both German, both came from BD, both successful at Champ level, both failed at Premier League level … what can we expect that is different from Wagner vs what we experienced with Farke?

No idea. Why not wait and see what happens?

[hogesar 9,618]

Simple(ish) explanation of Wagners Huddersfield tactics here, it's only a few minutes long!

 

[hogesar 9,618]

41 minutes ago, Canary Jedi said:

Ok I’m being hugely stereotypical but they’re both German, both came from BD, both successful at Champ level, both failed at Premier League level … what can we expect that is different from Wagner vs what we experienced with Farke?

I mean, he did keep them up in the Premier League for a season to be fair, in 16th with 37 points. The following season was awful admittedly.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

13 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Huddersfield actually stayed up and didn't have Emi Buendia...

But but but <insert nitpicking points as to why Wagner shouldn't get any credit for any of that>

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

The obvious tactical similarities with Wagner and Farke is that both use possession as a primary defence, both prefer jamming up the middle with the aim of getting a full-back/wing-back free to create an overload, and short, fast passing off said overload to create chances. That said, a Wagner side is more likely to use a skidding cross whereas Farke's teams almost solely dealt in through-balls or cut-backs.

He'll need a defensive midfielder who's happy to drop back into the centre of defence to create a back three so both full-backs/wing-backs can get up. That's got Lungi's name all over it but it needs another defensive midfielder to provide a bit more pace and possibly a bit more progressive passing. Put Gibbs alongside in a double pivot, Omo instead of Gibson (need the extra pace in the back four as I expect a higher defensive line under Wagner) and DON'T ****ING PUT SARGENT ON A WING and I think we've got something to work with that dovetails very well with bringing youngsters along and also with how Wagner likes to play.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Hopefully Wagner can turn some of this squad around. At Huddersfield, he did have one or two very good players and for me the standout was Mooy. I don't see any player in our current squad with that ability but hope I'm wrong. I did have high hopes for Sorenson who does appear calm. Can he step up?

[Indy 3,283]

23 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

But but but <insert nitpicking points as to why Wagner shouldn't get any credit for any of that>

Wagner didn’t spend over £100 million like a certain overrated midlander to stay up!🫣

Edited January 4, 2023 by Indy

[cambridgeshire canary 6,675]

3 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Hopefully Wagner can turn some of this squad around. At Huddersfield, he did have one or two very good players and for me the standout was Mooy. I don't see any player in our current squad with that ability but hope I'm wrong. I did have high hopes for Sorenson who does appear calm. Can he step up?

Mclean is the new Mooy
😉

[Indy 3,283]

Just now, cambridgeshire canary said:

Mclean is the new Mooy
😉

Oh no he isn’t! 😂

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

21 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Hopefully Wagner can turn some of this squad around. At Huddersfield, he did have one or two very good players and for me the standout was Mooy. I don't see any player in our current squad with that ability but hope I'm wrong. I did have high hopes for Sorenson who does appear calm. Can he step up?

Think it's more likely to be Gibbs as he looks a consistently more progressive passer than Lungi. @hogesar's video link showed basically that Wagner had a double pivot with Hogg being the more defensive one who drops almost to make the central defence a back three and Mooy being more of a deep-lying playmaker who breaks attacks up, makes himself available and moves the ball forwards. Gibbs resembles Mooy more for me, Lungi looks like a less aggressive but more intelligent Hogg - not to mention Lungi did quite the job on Ronaldo last season as an impromptu centre-half.

Think both should get a chance under Wagner. Put Omo in ahead of Gibson too and then we're starting to encourage youth again.

Edited January 4, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[FCC 76]

Watching the tactics video - players need to be hard working and intelligent.  I can see a couple of problems there with our lightweights.  Hopefully he gets them fitter than Smith managed. 
 

No big fan of Wilder, but thought he would tell it as it is - honest appraisal of the squad, get a team with more battling qualities, and challenge Weber on the recruitment.  
 

Here’s hoping for the best.

[Terminally Yellow 2,448]

I always thought Farke was closer in style to Guardiola whereas Wagner is Klopp like. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

I think the main similarity with Farke is his ability to develop players and his preference to play out of the back and use the keeper as an 11th outfield player. I'm curious as to whether this sees Krul given another opportunity.

But his teams press higher I think. Now, that could be good news for Sargent as he's the best player we've got at pressing high and he might want him to lead the line, that makes me wonder whether Pukki will be dropped deeper, something a lot of people have called for. 

I worry that the fitness of our players has regressed under Dean Smith and that they aren't fit enough to play how Wagner wants them to this season. I fear that efforts to increase the intensity in training won't pay real dividends until far too late in the season, if not next season, a bit like the Farke transition year.

Edited January 4, 2023 by TeemuVanBasten

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

5 minutes ago, FCC said:

Watching the tactics video - players need to be hard working and intelligent.

That's Sinani done for them.

Placheta and Onel both tick the hard working box, unfortunately don't tick the intelligent one. 

[Canaries north 151]

49 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Hopefully Wagner can turn some of this squad around. At Huddersfield, he did have one or two very good players and for me the standout was Mooy. I don't see any player in our current squad with that ability but hope I'm wrong. I did have high hopes for Sorenson who does appear calm. Can he step up?

Exactly what I was thinking. Mooy was the player I remember looking at and thinking he would be good at Norwich. Did he sign Pritchard from us or is that me getting it wrong again. 

[Barham Blitz 652]

24 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Think it's more likely to be Gibbs as he looks a consistently more progressive passer than Lungi. @hogesar's video link showed basically that Wagner had a double pivot with Hogg being the more defensive one who drops almost to make the central defence a back three and Mooy being more of a deep-lying playmaker who breaks attacks up, makes himself available and moves the ball forwards. Gibbs resembles Mooy more for me, Lungi looks like a less aggressive but more intelligent Hogg - not to mention Lungi did quite the job on Ronaldo last season as an impromptu centre-half.

Think both should get a chance under Wagner. Put Omo in ahead of Gibson too and then we're starting to encourage youth again.

Agreed.

I'd be tempted to go further and put Omo in instead of Hanley and if Gibson doesn't regain a semblance of form, once he is fit convert Lunghi to a permanent left-sided CB (I believe that is where he plays for his national U21 team and he has shown he can adapt to that side ?)  Then you have some pace and ability on the ball in the CB positions that has been sorely lacking since we sold Godfrey.

For all of his (purported - I'm not sold to be frank) defensive qualities, the opposition press can see the cogs turning in Hanley's brain with the ball at his feet and cut off any penetrative passing options which is why we end up passing it back and forth across the defensive line or lumping it aimlessly forward.

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

3 minutes ago, Canaries north said:

Exactly what I was thinking. Mooy was the player I remember looking at and thinking he would be good at Norwich. Did he sign Pritchard from us or is that me getting it wrong again. 

Yep, Pritchard left as Huddersfield were in the Premier.

[Indy 3,283]

I wonder where this leaves Cantwell? I can see we need a creative attacking midfielder and on his day there’s no one better at our club! 

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

1 minute ago, Indy said:

I wonder where this leaves Cantwell? I can see we need a creative attacking midfielder and on his day there’s no one better at our club! 

Hey Indyo , this is posted on the forum on a weekly basis.  No one has ever answered it yet. 

[Indy 3,283]

Just now, wcorkcanary said:

Hey Indyo , this is posted on the forum on a weekly basis.  No one has ever answered it yet. 

I really hope we can set up with Cantwell back, he’s the key for me, give him a free creative position and play two up top with wingbacks pushing forwards. But it’s really only Cantwell who can really push himself back into top form.

[Commonsense 618]

35 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

That's Sinani done for them.

Placheta and Onel both tick the hard working box, unfortunately don't tick the intelligent one. 

I have no idea why anybody thinks Sinani is a championship player!

[Well b back 3,190]

2 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Huddersfield actually stayed up and didn't have Emi Buendia...

Or Oliver Skipp unless I am mistaken

[hogesar 9,618]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Think it's more likely to be Gibbs as he looks a consistently more progressive passer than Lungi. @hogesar's video link showed basically that Wagner had a double pivot with Hogg being the more defensive one who drops almost to make the central defence a back three and Mooy being more of a deep-lying playmaker who breaks attacks up, makes himself available and moves the ball forwards. Gibbs resembles Mooy more for me, Lungi looks like a less aggressive but more intelligent Hogg - not to mention Lungi did quite the job on Ronaldo last season as an impromptu centre-half.

Think both should get a chance under Wagner. Put Omo in ahead of Gibson too and then we're starting to encourage youth again.

Good post.

You're aware I don't really rate Sorensen but in a double pivot there's an argument he sits well and can slot in as an additional CB / cover a wingback when forward.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

2 hours ago, Indy said:

Wagner didn’t spend over £100 million like a certain overrated midlander to stay up!🫣

Didn't crash and burn twice in the prem like a certain overrated German who spent a lot of time in Norfolk either.

[kick it off 1,948]

3 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

he's a Klopp acolyte (remember also that he and Klopp were teammates as players at Mainz), so his teams will chase much harder to get it rather than purely focus on a shape.

I read somewhere that contrary to him just being a klopp acolyte, he and klopp were room-mates and this system came about as they had long in depth discussions about the way they thought Football should be played. This system is as much Wagner as Klopp, its just klopp has had more success and therefore given the credit for it.