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5 minutes ago, chicken said:

Or was it that we were in the true position for weeks? And I think you will find it was months, during that unbeaten run.

"False position" has to be this season cr@ppest saying.

"We're in a false position" - win, stay top 6. October.
"We're in a false position" - draw, stay top 6. November.
"We're in a false position" - win, stay top 6. December.

Dec 29th. "Been sat in a false position for weeks!".

New manager comes in, gets some results. "We've turned it around". Back in top six "We deserve to be there now".

We are where the points we get put us, it is simply that simple. There is no such thing as a false position - it's a faux pas. The only very possible application is if teams have games in hand, but even then, it's only false in that the true position will be established when all teams have played the same number of games, so it doesn't make it false, just not secure.

Smith has gone, please can we just drop the absolutely awful attempts at arguments that have absolutely no merit now?
 

.....it was a false position. 
We were playing like crap and getting lucky. 

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2 minutes ago, Nexus_Canary said:

.....it was a false position. 
We were playing like crap and getting lucky. 

No. The table never lies.

And, at the time, we were dominating teams in terms of effort on goal. But you know, lets actually forget the facts because we are still obsessed with being negative and still haven't realised Smith has left the building.

Points are points. There are teams that have been lucky to beat us this season. There are teams we have been lucky to beat this season.

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6 hours ago, chicken said:

Not really though is it? 

The teams that played tonight and put us out of the top six and in 10th by gaining points: Sunderland, Luton, Middlesbrough, West Brom and Millwall.

What do they all have in common? They have all played one more game than Norwich as things stand. The true position Dean Smith left us in was 5th - when all teams had played 24 games.

He has gone. Can we stop the utter stupidness please?

Chicken, before you accuse anybody else of stupidity, please check the facts because Luton and Millwall have NOT played one more game than Norwich. 10th is the true Dean Smith inspired Championship table position. If he has still in the job, this is still the league position we would be in. Accept it. It is the reality. He has gone, let us hope that things improve.

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Great opportunity for the new guys to take us from 10th to 4th in one game and probably become the most successful coaching team we have ever had.

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There's three points covering 4th-14th, its incredibly tight as the Championship often is. We could go fourth with a win tonight so I wouldn't get too hung up on league position right now. More important to start playing well on a regular basis, the points and league position will follow on from that. 

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Christ some people digging deep to support Smith. His legacy will live on, possibly until the end of the season if we lose a couple of key players in the January transfer window.

The table looks a bit more realistic now we've played everyone at least once.

What this does mean is that the new manager really has to hit the ground running and I'm sure will influence who Webber selects. No time for some foreign manager clueless on English football to learn the ropes.

 

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8 hours ago, chicken said:

No. The table never lies.

And, at the time, we were dominating teams in terms of effort on goal. 

Oh right back to the xg defence.

Just accept the fact that boy wonder Smith was the worst manager of the modern era apart from maybe Gunn and we can all move on.

Just accept where we are now 10th and the table doesn't lie as you point out.

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I think talking about our position, false pr otherwise, is somewhat pointless at this stage with the league so tight.

What is clear is that we're out of the running for a top 2 spot and right in amongst a large group all chasing playoffs. We need a few good results in a row to put a solid gap between us and 6th place.

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9 hours ago, chicken said:

He has gone. Can we stop the utter stupidness please?

To be fair Chicken I think people need to have a rant about Smith for “closure.”

It’s like you’ve been in a bad relationship, chucked your other half and their friends have criticised you for dumping your partner when “you were so lucky to have them.” Our sliding down the table is justifying the anti-Smith position that many of us took, because most have seen this coming  

Yes it’s true if we win we’ll shoot back up the table. However, the most important point here is that under Smith we were less likely to bounce back and myself any many others believe the gradual decline would have continued due to a combination of poor results (lagging indicator) and poor performances (leading indicator).

Leading indicators are important in any business because you ca ride your luck short term, but over a longer period poor leading indicators will lead to poor results. And guess what we’re seeing now?

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What i find most amusing is that some obviously  not stupid posters use their intelligence to try to defend a position rather than use it to actually assess wtf is going on........🤦‍♂️

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23 minutes ago, Nexus_Canary said:

Oh right back to the xg defence.

Just accept the fact that boy wonder Smith was the worst manager of the modern era apart from maybe Gunn and we can all move on.

Just accept where we are now 10th and the table doesn't lie as you point out.

Probably better for us all to accept that Dean Smith didn't work out at Norwich City and just move on rather than wasting loads of negative energy on it. Time to look forward I say, starting with tonight. We have good players, they just need instructing, organising and motivating correctly. 

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1 minute ago, Gordon Bennett said:

Probably better for us all to accept that Dean Smith didn't work out at Norwich City and just move on rather than wasting loads of negative energy on it. Time to look forward I say, starting with tonight. We have good players, they just need instructing, organising and motivating correctly. 

You’re right it would be better, but we are emotionally invested in our team - it’s a relationship. How many people can simply move on when a year long relationship comes to an end? It’s part of the process to have a good moan about your ex. So good that we have forums like this to help that happen - get it out of our systems in time for the new man (or lady, could that happen?)

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5 hours ago, Hissing Sid said:

If we win tonight we could go 4th. Will that be a false position or a realistic one? I'm confused. 

Realistic .............because that's how League tables work- the more points a team accrues the higher their standing in said League table becomes irrespective of whether or not the perceived wisdom thinks that they're f*cking crap  - an amazing conclusion,I know,but nevertheless..........true 😎

Hope that helps 😀

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15 hours ago, Nexus_Canary said:

Oh right back to the xg defence.

Just accept the fact that boy wonder Smith was the worst manager of the modern era apart from maybe Gunn and we can all move on.

Just accept where we are now 10th and the table doesn't lie as you point out.

Nope, not at all. There is just this concept that we should have been mid-table at best but results were "false" when that wasn't the reality. As I have said time and time again it's not that we were performing out rightly badly, it was just so inconsistent you couldn't predict it. We were likely a bookies dream in that regard.

As I've said, it's not about xg, and xg isn't the defence. The suggestion has been we haven't deserved to win any games. The statistics don't actually support that, not just xg, especially earlier in the season. You can say something constantly until it comes true, it doesn't mean it was true all of the times it was wrong.

"See, see, I told you we were in a false position!" Said after Smith had been sacked and other teams gained points after playing a round of fixtures we were yet to play. Daft.

Roeder and Grant were worse too. I'd probably throw in Hamilton as well, though a tad harsh. And all of those managed us in Div 1/Championship.

For some people it's more about clawing at something until there is a hint of it being right than it is getting the result they wanted - eg; Smith out. 

 

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15 hours ago, Canary Jedi said:

You’re right it would be better, but we are emotionally invested in our team - it’s a relationship. How many people can simply move on when a year long relationship comes to an end? It’s part of the process to have a good moan about your ex. So good that we have forums like this to help that happen - get it out of our systems in time for the new man (or lady, could that happen?)

The difference is that the vast amount of these people never wanted to be in this relationship, said it was crap all along and now apparently are upset that there is nothing left to target their vitriol at...

Surely people should be relieved? When I have gotten out of relationships that I knew were not right, I wasn't angry or frustrated. I was glad that I could move on and not be so unhappy or feel like time was being wasted.

This is nothing like a relationship, and I rather dislike the analogy. If people treated a relationship like they do people involved with our club, or even our club itself, I'm pretty sure it would be classed as toxic.

Yes, there is passion involved but there is also a spectrum of fans, and some are just hell bent on making up useless arguments that fail to add any weight to any debate. 

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18 hours ago, kenfoggo said:

Chicken, before you accuse anybody else of stupidity, please check the facts because Luton and Millwall have NOT played one more game than Norwich. 10th is the true Dean Smith inspired Championship table position. If he has still in the job, this is still the league position we would be in. Accept it. It is the reality. He has gone, let us hope that things improve.

That statement is stupid when we went from 5th to 10th without playing a game, after Smith had departed. That was the point, a true position, where other teams had played games and dislodged us from 5th - but that's "true". 

Funny how that's the first time we have dipped that low for a considerable time too.

image.png.389d326e70d5a434593ba19197d30016.pngSo Millwall and Luton hadn't played on Thursday then? Ok, so they didn't play a game 'more', but their two results alone would not have put us in 10th would they? We'd have been 7th. So is THAT the "true" position? Or does this pathetic argument only count if the league position suits it? 

 

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I don't think we were in a false position. We were one of a host of teams who have all been much of a muchness over the first half of the season, because they have either been disappointing (WBA), mediocre (Birmingham) or inconsistent (Watford, Swansea). The reality this season is that there are two sides which are clearly head and shoulders above the rest and then a mass of sides - from 3rd to 16th - who could all make the play-offs, although I suspect those with better squads will eventually squeak through (Watford, WBA, Boro, and (hopefully) us.

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7 hours ago, chicken said:

Nope, not at all. There is just this concept that we should have been mid-table at best but results were "false" when that wasn't the reality. As I have said time and time again it's not that we were performing out rightly badly, it was just so inconsistent you couldn't predict it. We were likely a bookies dream in that regard.

As I've said, it's not about xg, and xg isn't the defence. The suggestion has been we haven't deserved to win any games. The statistics don't actually support that, not just xg, especially earlier in the season. You can say something constantly until it comes true, it doesn't mean it was true all of the times it was wrong.

"See, see, I told you we were in a false position!" Said after Smith had been sacked and other teams gained points after playing a round of fixtures we were yet to play. Daft.

Roeder and Grant were worse too. I'd probably throw in Hamilton as well, though a tad harsh. And all of those managed us in Div 1/Championship.

For some people it's more about clawing at something until there is a hint of it being right than it is getting the result they wanted - eg; Smith out. 

 

I think your being very idealistic and refusing to see the truth right in front of you but I refuse to discuss Smith anymore so fine whatever.

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4 hours ago, Nexus_Canary said:

I think your being very idealistic and refusing to see the truth right in front of you but I refuse to discuss Smith anymore so fine whatever.

Nope. I am fed up with absolutely foolish self perpetuated myths such as "false positions" and "true positions" when it's clearly all just angst ridden heated breath and nothing more.

I totally get the frustration with Smith and the performances, I don't ever get people feeling they have to make up arguments to falsely try and add weight to the view they already have. It undermines their stance.

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4 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

I don't think we were in a false position. We were one of a host of teams who have all been much of a muchness over the first half of the season, because they have either been disappointing (WBA), mediocre (Birmingham) or inconsistent (Watford, Swansea). The reality this season is that there are two sides which are clearly head and shoulders above the rest and then a mass of sides - from 3rd to 16th - who could all make the play-offs, although I suspect those with better squads will eventually squeak through (Watford, WBA, Boro, and (hopefully) us.

Exactly spot on canarybubbles.

A team is only ever where they should be in a table given that it is also as much down to the other teams and opposition on any given day.

There are only two teams averaging two points a game or better, and they aren't far beyond that. They are 14 and 11pts beyond the closest team though. There are a whole host of teams in and around 1.5pts per game, including us.

There's also another nice anomaly in that top six too. There is a team that has lost more games than all of the league bar the current bottom 3 - Blackburn. They have not drawn a single game this season. 13 wins, 12 losses. They also have a -1 GD. They sit 3rd having also scored less and conceded more than us. 

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