New signing from Brazil?

[Capt. Pants 4,227]

Gabriel is clearly one for the future and at £650k is not much of a risk. Being Brazilian you'd expect him to be comfortable on the ball.

I'm expecting there to be several changes against Luton, Omo being one of them. If there's a mistake to be made, Gibson is usually front of the queue.

[yellowrider120 762]

52 minutes ago, mannings bandy legs said:

Preparing to remain in the Championship.This ,along with giving pointy man a new contract tells you all need to know. In the chump Delia gets treated like a queen at other clubs. In the big boys league no one cares ,or knows, who she is.

That actually is a very good point! 

[hogesar 9,658]

10 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

That actually is a very good point! 

Based on nothing more than personal prejudice and ignoring countless facts. But other than that yeah I guess.

[Don J Demorr 162]

Hmmm. Looking for diamonds with a fishing rod? I think I can spot an Opportunity for Process Improvement there, Mr Essex, sir.

[Mr Angry 1,555]

2 hours ago, Keith Scott said:

Ben Gibson is the worst centre back in the championship. Never thought I'd see a more calamitous centre back pairing than Martin/Bassong.

But Gibson/Hanley are sure giving them a run for their money.

All the best. Big Keith Scott.

I was going through an old thread about Farke the other day. You were calling him out as a fraud after, I think, his second league game in charge so I think we can safely disregard anything that you say.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

38 minutes ago, Mr Angry said:

I was going through an old thread about Farke the other day. You were calling him out as a fraud after, I think, his second league game in charge so I think we can safely disregard anything that you say.

Ya reckon? 😉

[nutty nigel 7,531]

1 hour ago, yellowrider120 said:

That actually is a very good point! 

But Wynnie's alright.

25 years of hurt, casserole dish still gleaming...

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by nutty nigel

[kirku 1,332]

3 hours ago, essex canary said:

The Champions League side. Not exactly, he went on loan tio their B team from us then the same to Livingstone in Scotland. Now no longer our player he joined an Austrian top division side at the start of this season. Yet to make a single appearance for them.

I miss the days when people were saying he should've played instead of Pukki

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

5 hours ago, rock bus said:

Suppose this can be filed under one for the future but not particularly exciting (especially the slightly built decription.. the last thing this squad needs!).

Gibson is a strange one, I know he gets a lot of abuse but I do feel that there is a good player in there (and his history also suggests that).

He is a good age for a CB (especially as pace has never been his most important asset) and seems a decent character.

His confidence seems to be shot (and this is one example where I can see why the crowd reaction, whilst understandable, is no help).

I may get hammered for this but I'd like to see Smith sticking with him for a bit and show him some commitment.... I think he could be a player of a higher quality and better captain material than Hanley

 

Above average championship player being poorly coached and asked to do things that’s not his strong suit. Bad recipe. Doesn’t help himself With individual errors too. 

[Midlands Yellow 3,980]

3 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Gabriel is clearly one for the future and at £650k is not much of a risk. Being Brazilian you'd expect him to be comfortable on the ball.

I'm expecting there to be several changes against Luton, Omo being one of them. If there's a mistake to be made, Gibson is usually front of the queue.

It’s a huge queue. 

[horsefly 4,298]

12 hours ago, mannings bandy legs said:

Preparing to remain in the Championship.This ,along with giving pointy man a new contract tells you all need to know. In the chump Delia gets treated like a queen at other clubs. In the big boys league no one cares ,or knows, who she is.

So, was Webber preparing to remain in the Championship when he brought in that dirt cheap bunch of no-hopers Pukki, Buendia, Vrancic, Stiepermann, Zimmermann, Leitner,  et al? The financial reality for NCFC is that it doesn't have the resources to fill the club with proven PL talent. Thus, it has taken the route of rigorous scouting of potential talent that it can take a calculated risk will become future star quality. Lewis, Godfrey, Maddison, Buendia are all players who fall into that category, helping us achieve promotion and/or raising a huge amount of money. By the very nature of player development it is much more likely that such calculated risks will fail to achieve that sort of success. I wonder what the ratio is of success to failure in the massive academies and squads of the top 6 PL clubs (I doubt it gets anywhere close to 5%)? If you are willing to describe the calculated gamble that brought Buendia to CR as a masterstroke then you should be willing to accept that many other calculated gambles inevitably will not pay off. I fail to see what other alternative transfer policy the club could adopt, but I'm sure someone on here will come up with a cast-iron proposal that will guarantee success.

BTW just what access do you have to the boardrooms of the "big boys league"? They must be a shockingly ignorant bunch if they don't know or care who Delia Smith is. Perhaps you can set them straight on that.

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

1 minute ago, horsefly said:

So, was Webber preparing to remain in the Championship when he brought in that dirt cheap bunch of no-hopers Pukki, Buendia, Vrancic, Stiepermann, Zimmermann, Leitner,  et al? The financial reality for NCFC is that it doesn't have the resources to fill the club with proven PL talent. Thus, it has taken the route of rigorous scouting of potential talent that it can take a calculated risk will become future star quality. Lewis, Godfrey, Maddison, Buendia are all players who fall into that category, helping us achieve promotion and/or raising a huge amount of money. By the very nature of player development it is much more likely that such calculated risks will fail to achieve that sort of success. I wonder what the ratio is of success to failure in the massive academies and squads of the top 6 PL clubs (I doubt it gets anywhere close to 5%)? If you are willing to describe the calculated gamble that brought Buendia to CR as a masterstroke then you should be willing to accept that many other calculated gambles inevitably will not pay off. I fail to see what other alternative transfer policy the club could adopt, but I'm sure someone on here will come up with a cast-iron proposal that will guarantee success.

BTW just what access do you have to the boardrooms of the "big boys league"? They must be a shockingly ignorant bunch if they don't know or care who Delia Smith is. Perhaps you can set them straight on that.

I'm a big supporter (and defender) of this policy and practice in general, but we've got to admit that the success ratio has dipped sharply in recent times. There still seems to be a good pathway through our outstanding academy to the first team (Omobamidele, Tomkinson, Gibbs, Rowe, Springett), but compared to the great-value signings you list at the start of your post, I don't see much value in our incomings over the previous couple of years.

Nunez has the potential to be a snip at £4m, but that's still just potential at the moment. Gunn at around £5m is a sound investment. Sara, Tzolis, Rashica, Gibson, Giannoulis and Sargent all cost in the £7-10m bracket and only Sargent (and possibly Giannoulis) looks a good investment so far.

As for 'cheap and cheerful' signings, Lungi for around £1m looks to be good value if he can stay fit, but Dowell for around £2m hasn't really offered much. Mumba and McCallum both have lots of potential too, but all those players were signed more than two years ago. Chuck in Sinani, Hugill, Placheta, Lees-Melou plus expensive loans for Gilmour, Normann and Kabak, and it doesn't look too clever.

The corollary of this is that given our expensive signings of the last 18 months, the emphasis will be very much back on trying to unearth the kind of 'rough diamonds' you mention at the start. Let's hope we can find another generation of gems and a manager to get the best out of them.

Oh and well played for the last paragraph, by the way 🙂

[horsefly 4,298]

42 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

I'm a big supporter (and defender) of this policy and practice in general, but we've got to admit that the success ratio has dipped sharply in recent times. There still seems to be a good pathway through our outstanding academy to the first team (Omobamidele, Tomkinson, Gibbs, Rowe, Springett), but compared to the great-value signings you list at the start of your post, I don't see much value in our incomings over the previous couple of years.

Nunez has the potential to be a snip at £4m, but that's still just potential at the moment. Gunn at around £5m is a sound investment. Sara, Tzolis, Rashica, Gibson, Giannoulis and Sargent all cost in the £7-10m bracket and only Sargent (and possibly Giannoulis) looks a good investment so far.

As for 'cheap and cheerful' signings, Lungi for around £1m looks to be good value if he can stay fit, but Dowell for around £2m hasn't really offered much. Mumba and McCallum both have lots of potential too, but all those players were signed more than two years ago. Chuck in Sinani, Hugill, Placheta, Lees-Melou plus expensive loans for Gilmour, Normann and Kabak, and it doesn't look too clever.

The corollary of this is that given our expensive signings of the last 18 months, the emphasis will be very much back on trying to unearth the kind of 'rough diamonds' you mention at the start. Let's hope we can find another generation of gems and a manager to get the best out of them.

Oh and well played for the last paragraph, by the way 🙂

Pretty much agree with all of that. I think it's very difficult to assess what counts as success in a policy that is fundamentally premised on calculated gambles. That initial bunch that I mentioned might be considered to have been way more successful than we had any "right" to expect. Perhaps we've just hit par for the course at the moment. Still, I suspect the overwhelming majority of our Championship competitors would happily swap our transfer dealings of the last 5 years for their own. It still shocks me that £5-10m really doesn't guarantee any more quality than a Championship standard player as things stand.

The real locus of ire should be focused upon the avaricious PL that has seriously undermined the competitive relationship between the top two tiers of English football. The financial disparity faced by promoted teams has rendered their chances of survival near impossible unless one surrenders one's club to some dubious billionaire chancer (and God knows what their motives might be). Even then, survival is not guaranteed (as the current positions of Forest and Wolves show). Frankly, I would be happy to see the top 6 **** off to a European super league and take their money with them. Then let those clubs that remain undergo a financial reset that sees all the clubs in the land establish their clubs on a sound business footing, necessitating vastly reduced transfer fees and the end of ridiculously high wages for average players. Once upon a time one would be massively excited by the prospect of promotion, knowing that it would be tough to survive but certainly very possible. Now, it seems many of us accept the need to achieve promotion (for reasons of pure financial survival) but dread the almost inevitable multiple beatings it will bring. If the top 6 don't **** off to form a Euro super league I wouldn't be surprised eventually to see the PL closed off from promotion and only open to invitation according to financial criteria. After all, those morons from TalkSh*ite constantly feed the line that teams like NCFC don't deserve to be promoted on the grounds that they refuse to risk bankrupting the club by "giving it a go" and accruing massive debt. That's how corrosive the PL has become, so-called football experts actually saying a team that has won promotion on footballing merits shouldn't be promoted unless they are prepared to risk their extinction by spending money way beyond their means to match PL demands. 

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

22 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Pretty much agree with all of that. I think it's very difficult to assess what counts as success in a policy that is fundamentally premised on calculated gambles. That initial bunch that I mentioned might be considered to have been way more successful than we had any "right" to expect. Perhaps we've just hit par for the course at the moment. Still, I suspect the overwhelming majority of our Championship competitors would happily swap our transfer dealings of the last 5 years for their own. It still shocks me that £5-10m really doesn't guarantee any more quality than a Championship standard player as things stand.

The real locus of ire should be focused upon the avaricious PL that has seriously undermined the competitive relationship between the top two tiers of English football. The financial disparity faced by promoted teams has rendered their chances of survival near impossible unless one surrenders one's club to some dubious billionaire chancer (and God knows what their motives might be). Even then, survival is not guaranteed (as the current positions of Forest and Wolves show). Frankly, I would be happy to see the top 6 **** off to a European super league and take their money with them. Then let those clubs that remain undergo a financial reset that sees all the clubs in the land establish their clubs on a sound business footing, necessitating vastly reduced transfer fees and the end of ridiculously high wages for average players. Once upon a time one would be massively excited by the prospect of promotion, knowing that it would be tough to survive but certainly very possible. Now, it seems many of us accept the need to achieve promotion (for reasons of pure financial survival) but dread the almost inevitable multiple beatings it will bring. If the top 6 don't **** off to form a Euro super league I wouldn't be surprised eventually to see the PL closed off from promotion and only open to invitation according to financial criteria. After all, those morons from TalkSh*ite constantly feed the line that teams like NCFC don't deserve to be promoted on the grounds that they refuse to risk bankrupting the club by "giving it a go" and accruing massive debt. That's how corrosive the PL has become, so-called football experts actually saying a team that has won promotion on footballing merits shouldn't be promoted unless they are prepared to risk their extinction by spending money way beyond their means to match PL demands. 

I'm not sure where I stand on the prospect of a European Super League, but everything else in your post I agree with wholeheartedly. It was disappointing that the Crouch Report appeared to have been kicked into the long grass under Liz Truss; however, according to this report (only Liverpool Echo quoting the Daily Fail, so not necessarily reliable), Sunak is set to appoint an independent regulator in the New Year. 

The need for such intervention is more pressing than ever. Just in the past few weeks, I've seen articles about Reading, Southend and S****horpe being unable to pay wages on time, on top of all the existing FFP basket cases and smaller clubs on the verge of going to the wall.

I still believe – and hope – that a significant change is going to come, and when it does, hopefully our relatively risk-averse attitudes will work in our favour.

[essex canary 496]

15 hours ago, Don J Demorr said:

Hmmm. Looking for diamonds with a fishing rod? I think I can spot an Opportunity for Process Improvement there, Mr Essex, sir.

Perhaps. Mr. Webber, the Sporting Director, apparently takes some inspiration from Matthew Syyed's book 'Rebel Ideas.'  It is an interesting read that may have some merit. I was equally trying to reflect the idea of what happens when the rebel ideas become too outlandish.

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by essex canary

[essex canary 496]

17 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Gabriel is clearly one for the future and at £650k is not much of a risk. Being Brazilian you'd expect him to be comfortable on the ball.

I'm expecting there to be several changes against Luton, Omo being one of them. If there's a mistake to be made, Gibson is usually front of the queue.

£650K just about takes out the season ticket rise. Happy with this gamble?

[Commonsense 621]

22 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Gibson looked great in lockdown but not so good since. Some players are better in training than in games. Football behind closed doors is a different game. Some people don't like me saying that but it's what I believe. The current bad atmosphere probably has a greater affect on Gibson.

That and the sort of comments Cambridge makes!

[Ulfotto 632]

Not sure Gibson confidence will ever recover from last year. In the championship win he looked class. 
 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Ulfotto

[Red_Spartan 18]

The Gabriel purchase looks interesting in the context of Mark Attanasio's comment re purchasing another European club.

Watford but hopefully more stable/ethical! 

[essex canary 496]

7 hours ago, Feedthewolf said:

I'm not sure where I stand on the prospect of a European Super League, but everything else in your post I agree with wholeheartedly. It was disappointing that the Crouch Report appeared to have been kicked into the long grass under Liz Truss; however, according to this report (only Liverpool Echo quoting the Daily Fail, so not necessarily reliable), Sunak is set to appoint an independent regulator in the New Year. 

The need for such intervention is more pressing than ever. Just in the past few weeks, I've seen articles about Reading, Southend and S****horpe being unable to pay wages on time, on top of all the existing FFP basket cases and smaller clubs on the verge of going to the wall.

I still believe – and hope – that a significant change is going to come, and when it does, hopefully our relatively risk-averse attitudes will work in our favour.

I thought there had been some progress on the Crouch Report in terms of the PL promising more funds for lower divisions?

It looks like NCFC have solved the problem of parachute payments, just cut out the middleman and get the PL to send the money direct to the Bank.

Cambridge United have formed their Shadow Board. I guess our issues with independent directors and golden share will have to wait until Zoe is back on the Premier League Board?

 

[daly 501]

On 22/12/2022 at 17:36, yellowrider120 said:

You don't sit near me in Block K Row W do you?!! Similar stupid Gibson hater behind me. Last Saturday it was..........'don't give it to him for Christ's sake, he''ll only go and f----ing lose it'.

I totally agree that Gibson has had a tough time last season when he made some gaffs and there have been one or two this season but he is a top professional who has never had anything but good things to say of our club and fans. He speaks more sense in interviews than the rest of the Tools put together!   

No but in K

Must be a breeding ground for Gibson haters

 

 

[Olano 100]

On 22/12/2022 at 18:36, yellowrider120 said:

You don't sit near me in Block K Row W do you?!! Similar stupid Gibson hater behind me. Last Saturday it was..........'don't give it to him for Christ's sake, he''ll only go and f----ing lose it'.

I totally agree that Gibson has had a tough time last season when he made some gaffs and there have been one or two this season but he is a top professional who has never had anything but good things to say of our club and fans. He speaks more sense in interviews than the rest of the Tools put together!   

When it comes to the Blackburn goal he is not more to blame then the rest of the team. Gibsen was the only Norwich player that was not sleeping when they took the free kick. 

[chicken 2,624]

On 23/12/2022 at 08:22, Feedthewolf said:

I'm a big supporter (and defender) of this policy and practice in general, but we've got to admit that the success ratio has dipped sharply in recent times. There still seems to be a good pathway through our outstanding academy to the first team (Omobamidele, Tomkinson, Gibbs, Rowe, Springett), but compared to the great-value signings you list at the start of your post, I don't see much value in our incomings over the previous couple of years.

Nunez has the potential to be a snip at £4m, but that's still just potential at the moment. Gunn at around £5m is a sound investment. Sara, Tzolis, Rashica, Gibson, Giannoulis and Sargent all cost in the £7-10m bracket and only Sargent (and possibly Giannoulis) looks a good investment so far.

As for 'cheap and cheerful' signings, Lungi for around £1m looks to be good value if he can stay fit, but Dowell for around £2m hasn't really offered much. Mumba and McCallum both have lots of potential too, but all those players were signed more than two years ago. Chuck in Sinani, Hugill, Placheta, Lees-Melou plus expensive loans for Gilmour, Normann and Kabak, and it doesn't look too clever.

The corollary of this is that given our expensive signings of the last 18 months, the emphasis will be very much back on trying to unearth the kind of 'rough diamonds' you mention at the start. Let's hope we can find another generation of gems and a manager to get the best out of them.

Oh and well played for the last paragraph, by the way 🙂

I think the issue is around value isn't it?

I think in our NCFC bubble, we're used to seeing gambles of less than a million, or £1.5m in the case of Buendia, Leitner, Hernandez. Premier League is a different matter. There always seems to be a "premier league tax" applied. If you take into consideration the spends and gambles of other clubs...£8m for Sargent is nothing.

In fact, historically, £8m buys you a decent championship striker if they are moving to another championship club, possibly a premier league team. Grabban from us to Bournemouth was £8m, a premier league striker, he was not. Southampton forked out £15m rising to £20m for Armstrong who has made around 40appearances and scored a handful of goals. We can return to Bournemouth and see they also forked out £10-12m on Afobe. Our "gambles" start to pale in that sense.

I would also say that we nearly always seem to do better with cheaper risks. It may be purely perception though. But we overpaid in fee and wages for Naismith as we were desperate to get him. I feel we overpaid for Klose too. We do get some right, Brady was decent.

I think the question really is were we really at a point where we could afford to risk £9m-ish on both Rashica and Tzolis, especially considering the latter was considered more for the future? Could we have spread bet with lower fees and brought in a couple of maybe players for one of their fees? Someone mentioned Jed Wallace on facebook, a couple of seasons ago he would have been 26, and playing for Millwall - so would have been available for much less and sort of fits the bill of E.Bennett/Pilkington of old. May not have cut it, but arguably better than what we had still. That's just one shout, for example.

Again, I can't help but feel that with the likes of Sara, that there was probably a cheaper option available closer to home who at least wouldn't have had to settle into the English game this season.

That said, prices for players right now are ridiculous so even my judgement is probably out.

[Midlands Yellow 3,980]

31 minutes ago, chicken said:

I think the issue is around value isn't it?

I think in our NCFC bubble, we're used to seeing gambles of less than a million, or £1.5m in the case of Buendia, Leitner, Hernandez. Premier League is a different matter. There always seems to be a "premier league tax" applied. If you take into consideration the spends and gambles of other clubs...£8m for Sargent is nothing.

In fact, historically, £8m buys you a decent championship striker if they are moving to another championship club, possibly a premier league team. Grabban from us to Bournemouth was £8m, a premier league striker, he was not. Southampton forked out £15m rising to £20m for Armstrong who has made around 40appearances and scored a handful of goals. We can return to Bournemouth and see they also forked out £10-12m on Afobe. Our "gambles" start to pale in that sense.

I would also say that we nearly always seem to do better with cheaper risks. It may be purely perception though. But we overpaid in fee and wages for Naismith as we were desperate to get him. I feel we overpaid for Klose too. We do get some right, Brady was decent.

I think the question really is were we really at a point where we could afford to risk £9m-ish on both Rashica and Tzolis, especially considering the latter was considered more for the future? Could we have spread bet with lower fees and brought in a couple of maybe players for one of their fees? Someone mentioned Jed Wallace on facebook, a couple of seasons ago he would have been 26, and playing for Millwall - so would have been available for much less and sort of fits the bill of E.Bennett/Pilkington of old. May not have cut it, but arguably better than what we had still. That's just one shout, for example.

Again, I can't help but feel that with the likes of Sara, that there was probably a cheaper option available closer to home who at least wouldn't have had to settle into the English game this season.

That said, prices for players right now are ridiculous so even my judgement is probably out.

Webber is definitely better shopping at a jumble sale rather than at M&S. Praise the Lord Alex Neil isn’t in cahoots with him regarding purchases. 

[chicken 2,624]

20 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Webber is definitely better shopping at a jumble sale rather than at M&S. Praise the Lord Alex Neil isn’t in cahoots with him regarding purchases. 

Honestly, I think we are as a club.