Billy Gilmour and a tweet that aged well. Not.

[Robert N. LiM 4,242]

55 minutes ago, Indy said:

Why aren’t you? 🤔 

Mainly for the purpose of constructing that last post, tbh 😉

[Indy 3,283]

2 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Thank you very much for that. It takes a lot to deviate from the mob and call a spade a spade.

Psychological 101:

When people are engaged in a conversation and one (or more) party resorts to posting memes or spouting pre-set derisive comments such as "comedy gold", "this is hilarious", "car-crash", etc, they may think that they've won the argument by, but it's tantamount to punching someone in the face through sheer frustration.

They're unable to win the argument and show a modicum of humility, so they throw a tantrum and attempt to change the narrative. 

When people from the outside pile in and offer the aforementioned comments, completely unsolicited, it's a pack (bully) mentality.

There’s always a few with a very strong view point who will never yield their opinion and will vigorously air it.

But as we started to chat have you come to a conclusion on Gilmour’s best position yet? I’m struggling to say exactly where I would play him, I’ve made a few comments on here that he’s got a similar game to McLean who I really don’t rate much, others on here absolutely love him, buti think it’s because they have very tinted Yellow n Green specs.

To be honest Gilmour himself needs to ask where he wants to play and concentrate on that game, he’s nearly 22 now so needs to push on or he’ll lose himself in the lower leagues like so many touted talents of the past. Woodburn comes to mind, was going to be-the next big Liverpool thing, where is he now?

[KeiranShikari 1,410]

I said it whilst he was here. Josh McEachran 2.0.

[Petriix 2,834]

1 hour ago, TheDarkKnight said:

I think he's a roaming 8. I'd just tell him to give him a free role in the middle of the park, akin to a box-to-box midfielder and a traditional number 8.

See this is where I find your views about him so ridiculous. A number 8, box-to-box midfielder has very specific defensive responsibilities. They can't really have a 'free role' which is something only typically afforded to a number 10 where the defensive positioning is less crucial.

While it's true that Gilmour does really well in possession when under minimal pressure, that is a highly unusual situation which you really don't often see at the top level. What he does badly, on the other hand, is maintain the defensive structure of the midfield when out of possession and in particular in defensive transitions. He simply doesn't read the danger or work hard to get back when caught out of position.

Now maybe it was just that he couldn't be bothered to work hard enough at Norwich. I don't watch Scotland so I can't be sure. But every time I've seen him play in person he's lacked the fundamental defensive attributes required to play in midfield.

[paddycanary 538]

Gilmour is gash.

 

That's my insightful & well-thought out contribution to this surprisingly long thread.

[Indy 3,283]

2 hours ago, paddycanary said:

Gilmour is gash.

 

That's my insightful & well-thought out contribution to this surprisingly long thread.

Though your insightful and well thought out contribution is hard to argue with given his performances in our shirt, lots of people thought Sargent was gash and now appear to have changed their opinion. It might just be that Gilmour isn’t a premiership player or needs a season at lower league to establish himself to improve? Or you might be right, one things for sure we’ll find out over the next few seasons.

[Old Shuck 183]

He's been linked with a loan move to Villareal this morning.

La Liga may suit his game. Less frenetic, time on the ball. Would be a decent move if true.

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

Just now, Old Shuck said:

He's been linked with a loan move to Villareal this morning.

La Liga may suit his game. Less frenetic, time on the ball. Would be a decent move if true.

Agreed, I said Serie A, but La Liga would also work.

To be fair, I even think if you put him alongside Kante in a Chelsea shirt, it might work as well - but would fundamentally agree a slower-paced league and a midfield minder would bring the best out of him.

[hogesar 9,618]

11 hours ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Yeah. I don't think any Scotland fan has ever had any complaints about his general work-rate. So yes, he has always worked his socks off whilst in a Scotland top.

I watched all of his matches for Norwich. I wouldn't really say that he was lazy or anything. But that's sport, everyone sees it differently.

With Scotland he has the energy of McGregor and McGinn around him, so maybe that made a difference. 

It's been said before, but he’s the kind of player who needs a Kante or a Casemiro beside him. That isn't an insult. Every team need a blend.

I don't doubt he'd look better alongside a Kante or Casemiro. But then so would practically every midfielder in the world.

[Hairy Canary 668]

31 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I don't doubt he'd look better alongside a Kante or Casemiro. But then so would practically every midfielder in the world.

Absolutely. I've never understood that argument.

If you were lucky enough to have Kante in your midfield would you really want to dilute that advantage by playing someone at Gilmore's level so that Kante had to spend his time covering for his defensive weeknesses?

[king canary 7,580]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I don't doubt he'd look better alongside a Kante or Casemiro. But then so would practically every midfielder in the world.

Yeah. I said earlier in the thread if you need a whole midfield constructed around you to hide your weaknesses then you're strengths need to be something special, which his just aren't.

[Ken Hairy 3,760]

2 hours ago, Hairy Canary said:

Absolutely. I've never understood that argument.

If you were lucky enough to have Kante in your midfield would you really want to dilute that advantage by playing someone at Gilmore's level so that Kante had to spend his time covering for his defensive weeknesses?

Agreed, hell I'd look good with Kante cleaning up my messes 

[NorthCarolinaYellow 197]

Wait ... Kenny McLean is a League One player in your mind??

 

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[paddycanary 538]

On 01/12/2022 at 03:15, Indy said:

Though your insightful and well thought out contribution is hard to argue with given his performances in our shirt, lots of people thought Sargent was gash and now appear to have changed their opinion. It might just be that Gilmour isn’t a premiership player or needs a season at lower league to establish himself to improve? Or you might be right, one things for sure we’ll find out over the next few seasons.

Sargent is gash! 😀

 

Indeed Indy, my comment wasn't serious. I have nothing against Billy Gilmour & I think he'll carve out a decent career for himself. One could argue that other than perhaps Krul, Hanley, Pukki & Brandon Williams, the whole lot were gash over the season! My view is that the club made a seriously bad judgment call on his ability at that stage of his career, particularly for a player in a central position. Not BG's fault.

On a more general point, the obscene amounts of money sloshing about at the 'top table' are making it increasingly difficult for the likes of Norwich to compete. Hard lessons have been learned you would think, arising out of the 2021 summer window. The 'model,' while admirable in lots of ways, needs pretty much everything to work out for survival and ideally consolidation. I'm losing count of the amount of times when it feels like just a little bit more "ambition" (money?) may have made the difference (Gunn injury, Dean Windass...) but the amounts of money required nowadays are astronomical.

Has the courting of Attanasio publicly acknowledged that a new way is required? Smith & Jones will have to pass the torch at some stage in the not too distant future. I have mixed feelings about Norwich possibly becoming another club spending hundreds of millions (unlikely I suppose) to 'establish' themselves at PL level. But we might well be an attractive prospect for someone who sees us as a vehicle to invest in, spend 5/6 years+ at the top table allowing the value of the club as a general asset to appreciate considerably, and then flog us off to someone else. 

But do the fanbase want that? Does it even matter if we do or don't? With this club, I think it does. Perhaps the Gilmour loan is symptomatic of the gap between lower-Prem & upper-Champo? Or perhaps just incompetence on the scouting/recruitment team? Much to ponder!

 

And go Josh Sargent! 👍

[hogesar 9,618]

5 hours ago, TheDarkKnight said:

It's not true. 

I've seen Fred beside Casemiro for Manchester United. He still can't make a 5 yard pass. Kenny McLean alongside McGregor and McGinn, still looks like a league one player.

Lee Miller (RIP), Tom Cleverely  and Djemba-Djemba alongside Scholes and Keane at Manchester United. All were appalling.

Even the great Veron beside Scholes and Keane struggled.

It's a lazy argument suggesting that putting x player beside a world class player would make x player look fantastic (Yes, i made the argument, but in this case it's true.) 

It's not applicable with every single player in the world. 

Insert a championship player beside De Jong and Pedri in the Barcelona midfield and he would stick out like a sore thumb.

But they'd still look better. Although having seen your McLean comment I realise that you have demonstrably incorrect views on football that go beyond the capability of debate.

If you were a mainstay midfielder in two championship title seasons you're not a League One player.

[Mr Angry 1,545]

Billy Gilmour would walk into the England first XI? Apologies if I’ve missed something as I’ve been on my annual pubcrawl in London but he can’t get in to the Scotland first XI so you must be taking the ****?

[KeiranShikari 1,410]

Got to love the moving goalposts for wee Billy.

He's bad at Norwich because they're a bad team. He's not getting a look at Brighton because they're a good team. He needs to go to spain because they'll press him less and he'll get more time on the ball. Wonder what's next? How far can his social media hype squad take him?

 

 

 

[kirku 1,332]

10 hours ago, TheDarkKnight said:

The common consensus in England is that the SPL is at the same standard as League One, yes? I've heard it countless times.

I've watched McLean since he broke through at St Mirren.

By that Definition, yes, Kenny McLean is a League One player. 😉

Championship/League one. It's semantics. He's certainly not an EPL player. 

1) Let's add "semantics" to the long list of things you misunderstand

2) McLean and Gilmour have yet another thing in common, then - neither are "EPL players".

3) Gilmour would be lucky to have a career as good as Fred's, who has broadly as many minutes for Brazil than Gilmour does in the league, despite your ridiculous assessment that he "can't make a 5 yard pass"

Edited December 3, 2022 by kirku

[hogesar 9,618]

13 hours ago, TheDarkKnight said:

The common consensus in England is that the SPL is at the same standard as League One, yes? I've heard it countless times.

I've watched McLean since he broke through at St Mirren.

By that Definition, yes, Kenny McLean is a League One player. 😉

Championship/League one. It's semantics. He's certainly not an EPL player. 

There is a huge gap between League One and the Championship, so to say it's semantics is just yet another example of someone who bizarrely comments a lot on football they clearly don't watch.

I agree he's not an EPL player, but then again neither is Gilmour currently.

[Mengo 821]

4 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

There isn't. Ipswich or Sheffield Wednesday could easily hold their own against the likes of Huddersfield or Blackpool. Both will probably be Championship teams next season.

Technically, Gilmour is an EPL player. He's with Brighton. 

You're probably correct with this statement. In fact actually    you are technically  very correct 😉.

[The Real Buh 3,423]

Billy Gilmour is crap

[Robert N. LiM 4,242]

2 hours ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Technically, Gilmour is an EPL player. He's with Brighton

Now that's semantics

[king canary 7,580]

6 hours ago, TheDarkKnight said:

Technically, Gilmour is an EPL player. He's with Brighton. 

So Gilmour is a Premier League player because he is owned by a Premier League team despite having a total of 13 minutes all season.

However...Kenny McLean is a League One player despite being owned by a Championship team and having never actually played in League One. He also hasn't played in the 'League One standard' SPL since 2018.

I think we can assume this is just trolling at this point.

[kirku 1,332]

36 minutes ago, king canary said:

So Gilmour is a Premier League player because he is owned by a Premier League team despite having a total of 13 minutes all season.

However...Kenny McLean is a League One player despite being owned by a Championship team and having never actually played in League One. He also hasn't played in the 'League One standard' SPL since 2018.

I think we can assume this is just trolling at this point.

Not to mention, McLean has played 2.5x more in Prem than Gilmour..

[king canary 7,580]

21 minutes ago, TheDarkKnight said:

With all due respect, I've watched both players way more than you have (assuming you haven't watched St Mirren, Aberdeen, Scotland u15 - Scotland seniors matches).

I've thoroughly (and respectfully) made my points. Either you agree with me or you don't. I don't mind,.either way. 🙂

I don't mind people disagreeing with me.

The thing about this era (social media) is that there are so many people who can't seem to appreciate and be respectful of opinions which oppose their own, so they mock it, deride it and basically shout it down.

It's not difficult to show patience and respect. 

Your points might get more respect if they were at least consistent.

It is nothing to do with 'eras' it is all to do with actually making something resembling sense. 

If you're going to claim Gilmour is a Premier League player simply by virtue of being at a Premier League club you can't, in the same breath, claim McLean is a League One player despite being a Championship regular. 

[hogesar 9,618]

3 hours ago, TheDarkKnight said:

With all due respect, I've watched both players way more than you have (assuming you haven't watched St Mirren, Aberdeen, Scotland u15 - Scotland seniors matches).

I've thoroughly (and respectfully) made my points. Either you agree with me or you don't. I don't mind,.either way. 🙂

I don't mind people disagreeing with me.

The thing about this era (social media) is that there are so many people who can't seem to appreciate and be respectful of opinions which oppose their own, so they mock it, deride it and basically shout it down.

It's not difficult to show patience and respect. 

Thing with disagreeing, is you're not being even vaguely consistent in your points. It makes it hard to have any level on sensible debate and probably explains why you find this board one of the most welcoming - I can imagine others having far less patience with your distorted, inconsistent and easily disproven-via-fact opinions.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

49 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Thing with disagreeing, is you're not being even vaguely consistent in your points. It makes it hard to have any level on sensible debate and probably explains why you find this board one of the most welcoming - I can imagine others having far less patience with your distorted, inconsistent and easily disproven-via-fact opinions.

I am normally a big supporter of you Hoggy. But disproven-via-fact is a bit of a stretch here. Very few facts around arguments to do with potential and variables aplenty. Once again, I don’t necessarily agree with DK and his analysis of BG but I’m not going to belittle him in the process. “If we weren’t so nice a club we’d probably be laughing at you” is essentially your point when DK has been repeatedly laughed at and derided as well as the classic “I have facts to disprove your un validated opinions” argument. The guy has watched Gilmour and sees more from him than we saw in a totally sh**e season of almost zero positives from an entire squad. Even a squad with a current top scorer who was almost equally derided in JS. 

I think it’s fair to say BG has underwhelmed relative to his potential. Not sure I need to make a point beyond that 

[hogesar 9,618]

7 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

I am normally a big supporter of you Hoggy. But disproven-via-fact is a bit of a stretch here. Very few facts around arguments to do with potential and variables aplenty. Once again, I don’t necessarily agree with DK and his analysis of BG but I’m not going to belittle him in the process. “If we weren’t so nice a club we’d probably be laughing at you” is essentially your point when DK has been repeatedly laughed at and derided as well as the classic “I have facts to disprove your un validated opinions” argument. The guy has watched Gilmour and sees more from him than we saw in a totally sh**e season of almost zero positives from an entire squad. Even a squad with a current top scorer who was almost equally derided in JS. 

I think it’s fair to say BG has underwhelmed relative to his potential. Not sure I need to make a point beyond that 

When I say facts, I'm referring to the claim BG is a Prem player because he signed for a Prem club, but McLean is a League One player because he...signed for a championship club,  won 2 championship titles, never played in League One and has over 2x the appearances in the Prem than Gilmour does.

There is a point where things get a little nonsensical and the above is hugely contradicting.

[CANARYKING 634]

Can we chuck this thread, he’s gone I’m not interested anymore

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

This is turning into one of TuBs games of Whataboutery Top Trumps!! .😇