Previous managerial changes

[king canary 7,559]

Thought it would be interesting to look at where we were sat when we made previous managerial changes...

• Farke- sacked while 20th in the Premier League
• Alex Neil- sacked while 8th in the league, 9 points off the top 6
• Neil Adams- resigned while 7th and 3 points off the play offs
• Chris Hughton- sacked while 17th, 5 points above relegation
• Bryan Gunn- sacked while 24th in League One after one game
• Glenn Roeder- sacked while 21st in the Championship
• Peter Grant- resigned while 22nd in the Championship
• Nigel Worthington- sacked while 17th in the Championship

The obvious point here is that sacking a manager currently sat in the the top 6 and 6 points off 2nd would be a fairly sizable departure from our historic way of doing things, certainly when there is still more than half a season to go. We're a club with a tradition of giving managers time (at times too much of it!) and I can totally understand the argument from the clubs perspective that right now we're very much in the promotion mix which would likely have been the aim at the start of the season, even if I'm underwhelmed by some of the results/performances.

 

 

 

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

6 minutes ago, king canary said:

Thought it would be interesting to look at where we were sat when we made previous managerial changes...

• Farke- sacked while 20th in the Premier League
• Alex Neil- sacked while 8th in the league, 9 points off the top 6
• Neil Adams- resigned while 7th and 3 points off the play offs
• Chris Hughton- sacked while 17th, 5 points above relegation
• Bryan Gunn- sacked while 24th in League One after one game
• Glenn Roeder- sacked while 21st in the Championship
• Peter Grant- resigned while 22nd in the Championship
• Nigel Worthington- sacked while 17th in the Championship

The obvious point here is that sacking a manager currently sat in the the top 6 and 6 points off 2nd would be a fairly sizable departure from our historic way of doing things, certainly when there is still more than half a season to go. We're a club with a tradition of giving managers time (at times too much of it!) and I can totally understand the argument from the clubs perspective that right now we're very much in the promotion mix which would likely have been the aim at the start of the season, even if I'm underwhelmed by some of the results/performances.

 

 

 

I think it's very similar to the Hughton position, a manager who has clearly lost his way, although Hughton was sacked when we were on 32 points with an unwinnable set of fixtures remaining, and one of the favourites for relegation, so the "5 points above relegation" is a bit misleading.

 

Also (depressingly) it seems likely if we wait a couple of months we'll be around the level where Alex Neil/Neil Adams were when they were sacked.  At which point, it will be really hard for the new manager to make up that lost ground.

[Badger 2,404]

Like many/ most (?), I am far from convinced about Smith but I agree that given our history dismissal at this stage seems unlikely. I suspect most disinterested parties would consider it "harsh."

If the poor form continued into December and we dropped out of the top 6, it could be a different story however. Smith has really nailed his colours to the mast by saying that "we have to be a different animal when we come back:" if we are not, a pretty quick sacking would be justified as he will have demonstrated that he is unable to do anything about it.

[rock bus 850]

39 minutes ago, Badger said:

Like many/ most (?), I am far from convinced about Smith but I agree that given our history dismissal at this stage seems unlikely. I suspect most disinterested parties would consider it "harsh."

If the poor form continued into December and we dropped out of the top 6, it could be a different story however. Smith has really nailed his colours to the mast by saying that "we have to be a different animal when we come back:" if we are not, a pretty quick sacking would be justified as he will have demonstrated that he is unable to do anything about it.

I think this is probably correct and to independent observers and a minority of fans it would be considered harsh.

But the most important thing is the world cup presents us with a unique opportunity. We now have the chance to appoint a new manager and give them 4 weeks to work with the squad. That only normally happens at the end of the season.

There is still time for us to change things and achieve promotion but board/Webber need to do it now and not wait.

[hogesar 9,608]

Considering there hasn't been a single "Dean Smith Out" chant at a game this season, I doubt the club feel under too much pressure to act now, when the league position is taken into account as well.

I think we've likely got two scenarios. Of course, if we come back "a different animal" and go on a really good run, top 2 is still possible.

If we don't, and slip outside of the play-offs and top 2 becomes a huge improbability we might make a change a few games after the World Cup. At that point I think we're likely looking for play-offs rather than automatics with a new man in charge.

 

[Thumbbass 318]

56 minutes ago, Badger said:

Like many/ most (?), I am far from convinced about Smith but I agree that given our history dismissal at this stage seems unlikely. I suspect most disinterested parties would consider it "harsh."

If the poor form continued into December and we dropped out of the top 6, it could be a different story however. Smith has really nailed his colours to the mast by saying that "we have to be a different animal when we come back:" if we are not, a pretty quick sacking would be justified as he will have demonstrated that he is unable to do anything about it.

Totally on-board with this. And appreciate your posts as not being like the binary and reactionary stuff posted on most subjects.

I can't work out how much of this poor form (running back into Farke's time) is due to the manager/s or this group of players as a unit. It's been a running theme throughout the season that we have a period of domination in the game followed by a totally unfathomable malaise. The pendulum swings in every game and no one can expect to dominate for the entirety, but how much is caused by on-pitch decisions as opposed to overall strategy? While the Barclay cheered Sara's name he totally forgot he needed to cover for Max Aarons, just as a for instance. These are on-pitch issues that are not something a manager can solve, it's not u10s football.

 

[Capt. Pants 4,194]

I think had Boro scored a 2nd with 20 or 30 mins to go and we made little inroads into getting an equaliser I think there would have been a reaction from the fans. 

Our next 2 games are Swansea and Blackburn. Lose both of those and we will likely be outside the top 6 and around 10pts off the autos.

I'm sick of his excuses. Come back from this training camp no better and he has nowhere to go other than out the door.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Capt. Pants

[yellowrider120 761]

2 hours ago, king canary said:

Thought it would be interesting to look at where we were sat when we made previous managerial changes...

• Farke- sacked while 20th in the Premier League
• Alex Neil- sacked while 8th in the league, 9 points off the top 6
• Neil Adams- resigned while 7th and 3 points off the play offs
• Chris Hughton- sacked while 17th, 5 points above relegation
• Bryan Gunn- sacked while 24th in League One after one game
• Glenn Roeder- sacked while 21st in the Championship
• Peter Grant- resigned while 22nd in the Championship
• Nigel Worthington- sacked while 17th in the Championship

The obvious point here is that sacking a manager currently sat in the the top 6 and 6 points off 2nd would be a fairly sizable departure from our historic way of doing things, certainly when there is still more than half a season to go. We're a club with a tradition of giving managers time (at times too much of it!) and I can totally understand the argument from the clubs perspective that right now we're very much in the promotion mix which would likely have been the aim at the start of the season, even if I'm underwhelmed by some of the results/performances.

 

 

 

Agreed - which is exactly why it will not happen. In D Smith (owner) world everything is fine, we're in the top six and if only those ungrateful fans would just shut up moaning and support 'Dean and Craig' we would then plan the Christmas festivities!

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,421]

2 hours ago, king canary said:

Thought it would be interesting to look at where we were sat when we made previous managerial changes...

• Farke- sacked while 20th in the Premier League
• Alex Neil- sacked while 8th in the league, 9 points off the top 6
• Neil Adams- resigned while 7th and 3 points off the play offs
• Chris Hughton- sacked while 17th, 5 points above relegation
• Bryan Gunn- sacked while 24th in League One after one game
• Glenn Roeder- sacked while 21st in the Championship
• Peter Grant- resigned while 22nd in the Championship
• Nigel Worthington- sacked while 17th in the Championship

The obvious point here is that sacking a manager currently sat in the the top 6 and 6 points off 2nd would be a fairly sizable departure from our historic way of doing things, certainly when there is still more than half a season to go. We're a club with a tradition of giving managers time (at times too much of it!) and I can totally understand the argument from the clubs perspective that right now we're very much in the promotion mix which would likely have been the aim at the start of the season, even if I'm underwhelmed by some of the results/performances.

 

 

 

What this doesn’t tell us is the form of preceding games . Many of these (Neil , Adams , Hughton , Roeder , Worthy ) were sacked after the team had very poor runs . Hughton got sacked after a home loss and the signs were bad - being 5 points off the bottom wasn’t significant . We had 5 tough games left and McNasty rolled the dice .  Adams too had started ok then fell away. 
 

 

[Badger 2,404]

1 hour ago, rock bus said:

I think this is probably correct and to independent observers and a minority of fans it would be considered harsh.

But the most important thing is the world cup presents us with a unique opportunity. We now have the chance to appoint a new manager and give them 4 weeks to work with the squad. That only normally happens at the end of the season.

There is still time for us to change things and achieve promotion but board/Webber need to do it now and not wait.

I agree that the 4 week break does make it extra tempting, certainly from the fans' perspective, but my guess is that they will give him at least some time in December - but if there isn't obvious improvement immediately he will surely be in a vulnerable position, given what he has said.

[Badger 2,404]

39 minutes ago, Thumbbass said:

Totally on-board with this. And appreciate your posts as not being like the binary and reactionary stuff posted on most subjects.

I can't work out how much of this poor form (running back into Farke's time) is due to the manager/s or this group of players as a unit. It's been a running theme throughout the season that we have a period of domination in the game followed by a totally unfathomable malaise. The pendulum swings in every game and no one can expect to dominate for the entirety, but how much is caused by on-pitch decisions as opposed to overall strategy? While the Barclay cheered Sara's name he totally forgot he needed to cover for Max Aarons, just as a for instance. These are on-pitch issues that are not something a manager can solve, it's not u10s football.

 

I agree with you re plyer mistakes, but if I were to be ultra critical, I could suggest that the frequent changes in formation and personnel hardly help establish a playing pattern and on-field partnerships - although this is no excuse for the very basic error that you point out.

[king canary 7,559]

1 minute ago, Badger said:

I agree that the 4 week break does make it extra tempting, certainly from the fans' perspective, but my guess is that they will give him at least some time in December - but if there isn't obvious improvement immediately he will surely be in a vulnerable position, given what he has said.

I also wonder if this break is also a reason they are thinking not to sack Smith. If they believe in him you can argue a break where he can work on his tactics and tempo with the whole squad may be just what he needs. Preseason he didn't have a chance to involve Sara, Hayden and Nunez and we also Rashica as part of our plans at that point.

I'm not advocating for it but I can see the argument that if he can get his squad fit and better drilled through this break then we may come out looking different but I think it may turn pretty quickly if we come out slowly in December.

[king canary 7,559]

6 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

What this doesn’t tell us is the form of preceding games . Many of these (Neil , Adams , Hughton , Roeder , Worthy ) were sacked after the team had very poor runs . Hughton got sacked after a home loss and the signs were bad - being 5 points off the bottom wasn’t significant . We had 5 tough games left and McNasty rolled the dice .  Adams too had started ok then fell away. 
 

 

I'd say that is something of a given though- not many manager get sacked in great runs of form.

[repman 633]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

I also wonder if this break is also a reason they are thinking not to sack Smith. If they believe in him you can argue a break where he can work on his tactics and tempo with the whole squad may be just what he needs. Preseason he didn't have a chance to involve Sara, Hayden and Nunez and we also Rashica as part of our plans at that point.

I'm not advocating for it but I can see the argument that if he can get his squad fit and better drilled through this break then we may come out looking different but I think it may turn pretty quickly if we come out slowly in December.

The thing that has come to annoy me most about Smith is how he seems to correctly identify our problems, but then we never see them being addressed. From the start of the season he himself has been saying we need to do better creating chances yet these same problems exist now as they did back in August. It's one of the reasons I think he might've been able to buy himself time, he talks a good game about what needs to improve. I just don't trust him to actually fix the problems because if he could we would have seen something by now in my opinion.

[Google Bot 3,255]

4 minutes ago, king canary said:

I also wonder if this break is also a reason they are thinking not to sack Smith.

Imagine being on that plane to Tampa presuming Dean and Shakey must just be on a different flight. 🙂

[TheRock 149]

46 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

Agreed - which is exactly why it will not happen. In D Smith (owner) world everything is fine, we're in the top six and if only those ungrateful fans would just shut up moaning and support 'Dean and Craig' we would then plan the Christmas festivities!

Pretty much this. A zombie board who will do nothing until its too late, and will be happy with play-off / mid-table mediocrity.

It's clear they live in an echo chamber now, given the recent tiit-for-tat with the Local Media.

Edited November 14, 2022 by TheRock

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

I also wonder if this break is also a reason they are thinking not to sack Smith. If they believe in him you can argue a break where he can work on his tactics and tempo with the whole squad may be just what he needs. Preseason he didn't have a chance to involve Sara, Hayden and Nunez and we also Rashica as part of our plans at that point.

I'm not advocating for it but I can see the argument that if he can get his squad fit and better drilled through this break then we may come out looking different but I think it may turn pretty quickly if we come out slowly in December.

It's a fair point that it's very easy for us fans to say we want the manager to be sacked, the owners have to think about who would be the replacement and the risk you get someone who's no better in and have just spent a load of cash for no reason.

 

The worry for me is that we have some key players out of contract at the end of the season (esp Pukki, and to a lesser extent Cantwell).  Parachute payments are only for 2 seasons so any replacements will have to be given contracts with a salary reduction at the end of next season unless we get promoted.  So, already you have a problem trying to bring replacements in.  Last time we were in this position, we sold Maddison and brought in ultra cheap signings from Germany plus the recruitment team were able to find Buendia in the 2nd tier of Spanish football.  We can't rely on being that fortunate again.

[repman 633]

I see tomorrow marks a year to the day since Smith was appointed. It's wishful thinking but what are the chances there is some clause in his contract that states he would be due more compensation if sacked within a year? Even though his aim when coming here was to keep us in the PL, everyone was well aware that was unlikely to happen. He would've liked the guarantee that he would be given the chance this season to get us back up or if not he would get a nice lump sum to go.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, king canary said:

I also wonder if this break is also a reason they are thinking not to sack Smith. If they believe in him you can argue a break where he can work on his tactics and tempo with the whole squad may be just what he needs. Preseason he didn't have a chance to involve Sara, Hayden and Nunez and we also Rashica as part of our plans at that point.

I'm not advocating for it but I can see the argument that if he can get his squad fit and better drilled through this break then we may come out looking different but I think it may turn pretty quickly if we come out slowly in December.

What are his tactics though?

[shefcanary 2,377]

I agree with much the OP has set out. But for me, and one reason I've not joined in the Simth out debate, is that there are some underlying fundamentals that I am concerned about. And if you know me, you know what is coming. Where was the corporate governance that would have stopped us getting into a financial position where we have already spent the best part of £70million from parachute payments before we receive any of it?

Until that is answered by the club, everything else is just re-arranging deckchairs on the titanic.

I'm frustrated that the club is going to get away with answering that issue whilst on here everybody is focussed on a manager who you know because of a lack of corporate governance won't get the sack until promotion is not attainable this season (as per the "Norwich Way"). 

I'm pinning a lot on Attanasio, but his media rounds this weekend don't suggest anything is going to happen that soon. My guess is he'll wait until near total financial collapse to force Smith & Jones into a cheap sale and then things will change really quickly. 

Stick in there guys, it's going to be a reasonably long period of time before we see anything change significantly. Don't waste your energies on just changing the manager, the real changes are just over the horizon and it will be a very different place then.

[Google Bot 3,255]

2 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

What are his tactics though?

Straight from his application form:

[Capt. Pants 4,194]

2 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Imagine being on that plane to Tampa presuming Dean and Shakey must just be on a different flight. 🙂

Shakey's gone ahead early early to put the cones out.

[Robert N. LiM 4,218]

6 hours ago, Badger said:

Smith has really nailed his colours to the mast by saying that "we have to be a different animal when we come back:" if we are not, a pretty quick sacking would be justified as he will have demonstrated that he is unable to do anything about it.

this is an excellent point: he's basically constructed a petard by which he can later be hoist

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Shakey's gone ahead early early to put the cones out.

And why Tampa? Why not arrange some friendlies in this country?

[repman 633]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

And why Tampa? Why not arrange some friendlies in this country?

There's plenty of benefits to training in warmer climates. Less injury risk compared to cold weather here. Less chance of catching any illness. Can push players harder than you can in the winter. Also plenty of psychological benefits, more likely to be motivated in the sunshine than the rain, breaking up of routine. In pre season the camps are always described as a good opportunity for team bonding.

[Tommo 51]

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/sources-norwich-city-starting-to-consider-dean-smiths-position/
 

please be true 

[Barham Blitz 652]

6 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

And why Tampa? Why not arrange some friendlies in this country?

We have some weird commercial partnership with Visit Tampa Bay for reasons which aren't entirely clear.  Probably get half price hotel rooms or team bike hire or something ...

Edited November 15, 2022 by Barham Blitz

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

19 hours ago, Tommo said:

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/sources-norwich-city-starting-to-consider-dean-smiths-position/
 

please be true 

"There has been a lack of fluency at times."  Well, yes.  Unfortunately those times have included large parts of every game this season.