Pukki - Is it the System or lack of Ability around him?

[Google Bot 3,259]

Had a conversation with a friend earlier and we were talking about the game at weekend and how Smith has failed to build around Pukki succesfully since he took over, and we both agreed the system had been at fault - certainly prior to Sarge being moved more central.

And it got me thinking afterwards that even when Emi was out of the team we'd fail to have the same spark and serve Pukki... And that's within a working well developed system.

When I break it down, he just needs quality delivery and that comes down to individuals doesn't it?  It's not really the system at all.

It's not as though we've ever played super wide pumping balls across the top for a big man to jump on.  The times where that has happened would've been through necessity due to prem defences steering us into those areas, where we are feeding off scraps.  

You've only got to feed him a ball into a bit of space, the ability to spot movement and time a pass to someone's run is just individual skill surely?

So when people throw out this remark of the system not suiting him, what do they actually mean by that? When I break it down it comes down to the ability around him.  And I somehow we've fallen into a trap of wrongly portraying him as this complicated conundrum that needs to be worked out.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,680]

I imagine it's the mixture of various things. I think Pukki is starting to slow down and age, and I do think a part of him wishes he was at another club. It also does not help that Smith seems to think that just chucking hoof balls forward for him to try and tap in or head in will somehow work when he's not that sort of player. He needs support behind him and good ground through balls, he's never going to be a Hugill type lump of a player who's going to outbully the defence and get his head to it. He makes fantastic runs and finishes them, that's what he's about but seems Smith does seem a little confused about it.

 

I think the fact that Pukki, Finlands all time top goalscorer has not been called up to the Finland squad for their upcoming matches as they have said they would rather rest him and how he 'needs rest'  says all you need to know about how Pukki is both playing and feeling right about now. He's not getting any younger sadly that much is for sure and he's playing for us in a system that just does not play to his strengths.

 

... Now just watch me be wrong and for Pukki to score a hattrick this weekend😂

[shefcanary 2,389]

My thoughts on this are that we have struggled to free up the creativity of our midfielders on a regular basis. 

When Emi was here, he was capable of freeing up his creativity himself without too much support from others. So much so that when he wasn't in the side, the midfield was not used to having to work that little bit harder to create space for others! It was Buendia who held back the team rather than Pukki.

Post Buendia, the big issue has been the lack of the CDM. Our midfield has been focussed too much on the defensive work and thus finding the space to feed Pukki has been difficult. There have been flashes of this every now and then - Normann certainly found a couple of killer balls, Dowell & Lungi had occasionally, Nunez, Gibbs and Sara seem to be trying more regularly with Hayden back in the team. 

The one biggest disappointment until now has been Cantwell who we expected to pick up from Buendia but has taken time to get his head right. As for Kenny, least said the better.

Now we have Hayden, we are seeing Gibbs & Ramsey in particular building a stronger relationship with Pukki, which I expect to bring more goals in the future.

In short, Buendia did too much of the feeding in the past, we struggled without him because others couldn't step up, without Buendia we have been waiting for a strong CDM to free up our creatives and we are seeing with Gibbs and Ramsey hope for the future.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

A player like Emi (in my opinion the best player we’ve ever had) is always going to provide better service than a player of less quality. Sadly we’ve gone from having a world class play maker to players of lesser quality so service would naturally diminish under any system. That being sad Pukki this season has to take a share of the blame as he’s missed chances that in other season he simply would not miss. 

[Google Bot 3,259]

14 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

It also does not help that Smith seems to think that just chucking hoof balls forward for him to try and tap in or head in will somehow work when he's not that sort of player.

Ah but this is the question in a nutshell really.  Is that through a desire to play a long ball system, or just lack of ability in doing what they should be doing? 

The players we've brought in to the club under Smith (Hayden, Ramsey, Nunez, Sara etc.) - I don't think any play into the mindset that suggests the long ball is prefered.   

Ramsey and Nunez are very much on the technical scale that should be able to spot player runs and have the ability to carve a ball into space.  Sara appears to be more of an engine, but again not a hoof ball player - much more refined when it comes to touches and his passing ability.

Which then leads me to wonder if it's none of the above, but just poor coaching, or low confidence.

Yes, Pukki is getting no younger - but he's off form, he's not unable to keep up or any age related issues.  His ability to finish is more from frustration than anything else I beleive.

[A Load of Squit 5,136]

Pukki isn't getting any younger, he's played almost non-stop for the last 3 years.

He probably peaked at 30, it's no surprise that he hasn't maintained that form.

 

[king canary 7,580]

In my view the problem is largely that Pukki is a very one dimensional striker. He's incredible in that one dimension but the issue is you need everyone playing to his strengths at all times. Smith clearly wants a striker who can at times play with his back to goal, hit the channels and bring others into the game, none of which really suit Pukki. He's a good part of the build up when you're closer to the area and you've got those quick interchanges as he showed with Ramsey but closer to our end of the pitch he's largely ineffective. 

Your other point about playing him into a bit of space is true but its reliant on three things...

1. The space being available
2. Having the players who can put the right ball in there
3. That player and Pukki being on the same mental wavelength so his run is timed with the pass.

Point 3 is where we aren't there yet in my view. Too often a ball is played and Pukki isn't quite ready or expecting it and thus can't do what he needs to. When Sargent is up top his physicality allows him to sometimes make a bit more of those slightly aimless longer balls, where Pukki can be bullied off it. 

We're clearly at a cross roads with his contract up this season and if we don't think it'll be renewed then it makes sense to start trying to build a system that can suit multiple types of striker. 

[Google Bot 3,259]

4 minutes ago, king canary said:

In my view the problem is largely that Pukki is a very one dimensional striker.

But then when you look at the goals he's scored this season they've been quite diverse and many have came from a physical presence and hustling the keeper or center halfs.  

I don't think he's as complicated as we're leading ourselves to beleive.  He lacks the big man element sure, but everything else - his first touch, his ability to finish, he can hustle, he can press, he can turn, decent footwork and relatively strong for his size.

He worked very well in a "system" that had what i'd define as a near world class player in Emi... certainly world class by our standards, anyway.  Are we just confusing the relationship he had with Emi and the patterns of play they built through that relationship as him being one dimensional?

I'm not disagreeing with you as what you've written is really well explained and makes sense, but rather I'm wanting to get to the bottom of this "It's the system" excuse that we all bring out.  It's so easy to just throw it out there, and as such it sits as a negative aspect to Smith's tenure.

So far the comments I see, other than him "getting on", have a bias towards it being more a failure in recruitement and player ability?

[shefcanary 2,389]

5 minutes ago, king canary said:

In my view the problem is largely that Pukki is a very one dimensional striker. He's incredible in that one dimension but the issue is you need everyone playing to his strengths at all times. Smith clearly wants a striker who can at times play with his back to goal, hit the channels and bring others into the game, none of which really suit Pukki. He's a good part of the build up when you're closer to the area and you've got those quick interchanges as he showed with Ramsey but closer to our end of the pitch he's largely ineffective. 

Your other point about playing him into a bit of space is true but its reliant on three things...

1. The space being available
2. Having the players who can put the right ball in there
3. That player and Pukki being on the same mental wavelength so his run is timed with the pass.

Point 3 is where we aren't there yet in my view. Too often a ball is played and Pukki isn't quite ready or expecting it and thus can't do what he needs to. When Sargent is up top his physicality allows him to sometimes make a bit more of those slightly aimless longer balls, where Pukki can be bullied off it. 

We're clearly at a cross roads with his contract up this season and if we don't think it'll be renewed then it makes sense to start trying to build a system that can suit multiple types of striker. 

Whilst I cannot argue with most of the thrust of your argument, I don't think we are too far off now making it work with Pukki despite his pace falling off a little. Sure, it has taken a lot of time, but Hayden's appearance has allowed a bit of an acceleration in getting there in recent games, Gibbs, Ramsey and Nunez showing signs of catching Pukki's wavelength.

I've mentioned elsewhere, that up until now Webber has been looking too much at the future and what happens next time we get to the EPL (the dreaded 4-3-3 and squeezing the wrong players into it), whilst missing making the most of what we have now and ensuring we get promoted first! At least Smith now seems to have the option of ignoring 4-3-3 and results are picking up.

Indeed, it is interesting now how some EPL clubs are moving away from the 4-3-3 model, it isn't the be all and end all that Webber seemed to think.

I accept this opens up the possibility again of failing on promotion, especially if that is without Pukki, but you would think third time lucky, especially with Attanasio & co. in the background this time?

[Barham Blitz 652]

40 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Had a conversation with a friend earlier and we were talking about the game at weekend and how Smith has failed to build around Pukki succesfully since he took over, and we both agreed the system had been at fault - certainly prior to Sarge being moved more central.

And it got me thinking afterwards that even when Emi was out of the team we'd fail to have the same spark and serve Pukki... And that's within a working well developed system.

When I break it down, he just needs quality delivery and that comes down to individuals doesn't it?  It's not really the system at all.

It's not as though we've ever played super wide pumping balls across the top for a big man to jump on.  The times where that has happened would've been through necessity due to prem defences steering us into those areas, where we are feeding off scraps.  

You've only got to feed him a ball into a bit of space, the ability to spot movement and time a pass to someone's run is just individual skill surely?

So when people throw out this remark of the system not suiting him, what do they actually mean by that? When I break it down it comes down to the ability around him.  And I somehow we've fallen into a trap of wrongly portraying him as this complicated conundrum that needs to be worked out.

It's the system if the spaces between the midfield and the forward line are too great so any vertical pass enables defenders to see it and react. 

It's the system if we are playing three up top with the wide players staying wide as traditional wingers because they are again not close enough to make the quick passes to feet which change angles and draw defenders out of position to open up the space for Pukki's runs,  Unless they come inside, or get behind a defence to drive a ball across the area, Pukki is realistically largely neutured by this approach.

It's the system and ability if the physical profile of the players required to make that system work prioritises strength and pace over guile because we don't have the budget to buy players with both unless we unearth an absolute diamond like Emi. 

When you (correctly) point out that "You've only got to feed him a ball into a bit of space, the ability to spot movement and time a pass to someone's run is just individual skill"  the issue is that players with that level of individual skill and vision are actually pretty rare and often expensive - particularly if they have any sort of physicality about them to also do all of the other things that we will expect of our midfield / forwards as well.  We sold one relatively recently for club record £35m+ for example.  And even with those who do have the skill, it is the speed of thought and execution that makes the difference.  The same pass made half a second later allows the space to be closed off, the run to be matched.  You either pay a lot of money or kiss a lot of frogs for that half a second difference.

So in many ways it is easier (and cheaper) to play the percentages and build a team and a system around a McBurnie or a Morris or a Jerome (or even a Holt for that matter.)  Not just in terms of the striker themselves, but also the set up around them.  Which is why we are gradually drifting down that path ourselves.  But in those rare moments where everything combines - when the system is geared to the strengths of players like Pukki and Buendia who are able to play in that way and deliver - isn't it those moment that linger longest in the memory ... ?

[cambridgeshire canary 6,680]

1 minute ago, Google Bot said:

But then when you look at the goals he's scored this season they've been quite diverse and many have came from a physical presence and hustling the keeper or center halfs.  

I don't think he's as complicated as we're leading ourselves to beleive.  He lacks the big man element sure, but everything else - his first touch, his ability to finish, he can hustle, he can press, he can turn, decent footwork and relatively strong for his size.

He worked very well in a "system" that had what i'd define as a near world class player in Emi... certainly world class by our standards, anyway.  Are we just confusing the relationship he had with Emi and the patterns of play they built through that relationship as him being one dimensional?

I'm not disagreeing with you as what you've written is really well explained and makes sense, but rather I'm wanting to get to the bottom of this "It's the system" excuse that we all bring out.  It's so easy to just throw it out there, and as such it sits as a negative aspect to Smith's tenure.

So far the comments I see, other than him "getting on", have a bias towards it being more a failure in recruitement and player ability?

I think Pukkis reputation also does help while also hinders. Everyone in the championship knows who Pukki is now. They know how Pukki works and how to defend against him. It's not quite like Pukkis first season when every team clearly had no idea how to defend against him and thus he was able to wreck havoic everytime he got on the pitch.. Teams know about Pukki, they know what kind of a player he is and they no doubt spend time training to defend againt him.  

[Barham Blitz 652]

1 minute ago, shefcanary said:

Indeed, it is interesting now how some EPL clubs are moving away from the 4-3-3 model, it isn't the be all and end all that Webber seemed to think.

 

Agree with all of your post aside from a slight quibble with this bit.  I don't think that many EPL clubs actually played 4-3-3 in recent times.  I don't think therefore that we were copying anyone - but rather I think Webber's 4-3-3 was just an attempt to counter the more standard 4-2-3-1 by bypassing the midfield more directly and quickly in transition and pinning opposition full-backs back a bit.  Didn't work obviously, but that's another story ... 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,738]

He's getting chances...

Only in the last few weeks,

Missed pen at Sheff Utd

Missed one on one at Burnley in the last min at 0-1 down

Missed one on one vs Luton at 0-1 down

Hit the post with only keeper to beat vs QPR

...those missed chances would have given us 6 extra points. In our last 2 promotion seasons he probably scores them all

Maybe he's just not as clinical as he was?

Edited November 11, 2022 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[Google Bot 3,259]

31 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Maybe he's just not as clinical as he was?

Is it not through frustration and seemingly worn out/fedup with the lack of service up until this point, though?  There's no doubt that whatever cause the damage has been done as his body language just isn't the same.   

Personally, I don't buy it's due him being a few years older either.  Never blisteringly fast but he's at least as quick as the CB's he finds himself against at this level, particuarly if he is goal side of them.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Google Bot

[hogesar 9,618]

6 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Is it not through frustration and seemingly worn out/fedup with the lack of service up until this point, though?  There's no doubt that whatever cause the damage has been done as his body language just isn't the same.   

Personally, I don't buy it's due him being a few years older either.  Never blisteringly fast but he's at least as quick as the CB's he finds himself against at this level, particuarly if he is goal side of them.

That's probably more likely because he wanted to leave this season and we didn't let him. I think he's a very good professional so it's not having a massive impact but at elite sport even that 1% less commitment can be noticeable.

We've talked about it on other threads, but even the poorer teams at Championship level are deciding to play defensive, deep football to get points. In previous seasons they'd "give it a go" but the coaches are more rigid and understanding the quality gap and working out ways of stopping good teams. It explains why all the good teams in this division have dropped points already against the divisions weakest.

I think the way we are currently playing is creating enough chances for Pukki so let's hope that continues, but I don't think it's as easy as previous championship seasons.

I caveat it with Emi was clearly "too good" for this level and he was able to create space that quite simply no-one else in the division was capable of.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

1 hour ago, Barham Blitz said:

It's the system if the spaces between the midfield and the forward line are too great so any vertical pass enables defenders to see it and react. 

It's the system if we are playing three up top with the wide players staying wide as traditional wingers because they are again not close enough to make the quick passes to feet which change angles and draw defenders out of position to open up the space for Pukki's runs,  Unless they come inside, or get behind a defence to drive a ball across the area, Pukki is realistically largely neutured by this approach.

It's the system and ability if the physical profile of the players required to make that system work prioritises strength and pace over guile because we don't have the budget to buy players with both unless we unearth an absolute diamond like Emi. 

When you (correctly) point out that "You've only got to feed him a ball into a bit of space, the ability to spot movement and time a pass to someone's run is just individual skill"  the issue is that players with that level of individual skill and vision are actually pretty rare and often expensive - particularly if they have any sort of physicality about them to also do all of the other things that we will expect of our midfield / forwards as well.  We sold one relatively recently for club record £35m+ for example.  And even with those who do have the skill, it is the speed of thought and execution that makes the difference.  The same pass made half a second later allows the space to be closed off, the run to be matched.  You either pay a lot of money or kiss a lot of frogs for that half a second difference.

So in many ways it is easier (and cheaper) to play the percentages and build a team and a system around a McBurnie or a Morris or a Jerome (or even a Holt for that matter.)  Not just in terms of the striker themselves, but also the set up around them.  Which is why we are gradually drifting down that path ourselves.  But in those rare moments where everything combines - when the system is geared to the strengths of players like Pukki and Buendia who are able to play in that way and deliver - isn't it those moment that linger longest in the memory ... ?

I really like this post. Only thing I'd add is that it's possible to prioritise playing the percentages while looking for opportunities to get that bit of magic on top of it; it doesn't need to be either or.

Overall, I think there's no need to worry about Pukk. We're still getting some great input from Pukki (one penalty a way from a hat trick recently), while also seeing a welcome growth in the range of contributing goalscorers.

[Petriix 2,834]

3 hours ago, Google Bot said:

You've only got to feed him a ball into a bit of space, the ability to spot movement and time a pass to someone's run is just individual skill surely?

So when people throw out this remark of the system not suiting him, what do they actually mean by that?

It's not quite as simple as that. I'll attempt to break it down... 

1) Pukki has only ever been successful when paired with another striker or a number 10. [His movement (acceleration, timing, changes of direction etc) is most effective when beating/outwitting a single defender so he thrives on having the other centre back occupied or pulled out of position.] 

2) His main threat comes from an early vertical pass in the central area. 

The first point is 100% about the 'system'. The second is half system and half individual [not so much 'skill' but] 'awareness'.

With the 4-3-3, the primary attacking play very much shifts into the channels with the final ball usually coming later and more square than vertical. And, with only Pukki centrally, there's no one to create the space he needs to create those duals he thrives on.

You're right that some players have a far greater ability than others to spot his movement and pick the right pass.*

But it's also about the areas where those players receive the ball and what options they have. 

In the 4-2-3-1 or the 4-4-2 diamond, the 'wide' midfielders are typically narrower, often playing as a dynamic triumvirate of 8s and 10s. Receiving the ball in more central areas opens up the opportunity to play more vertical passes.

So the system is a massive part of the equation. 

*It wasn't just Buendia. Stiepermann, Vrancic and Dowell all had that understanding with Pukki. Cantwell (weirdly) didn't and doesn't, but he was adept at finding one of those others who did/do. Kenny has the vision without often the execution. Dowell lacks the physicality and workrate to justify a place but is exceptionally good at threading the ball through. Normann had it, Gilmour didn't. Neither did/do Rashica or Sargent but Sarg is adept at creating space for Pukki when played centrally. Nunez has the right attributes without having quite clicked with Pukki yet. 

 

[Barham Blitz 652]

3 hours ago, Petriix said:

It wasn't just Buendia. Stiepermann, Vrancic and Dowell all had that understanding with Pukki. Cantwell (weirdly) didn't and doesn't, but he was adept at finding one of those others who did/do. Kenny has the vision without often the execution. Dowell lacks the physicality and workrate to justify a place but is exceptionally good at threading the ball through. Normann had it, Gilmour didn't. Neither did/do Rashica or Sargent but Sarg is adept at creating space for Pukki when played centrally. Nunez has the right attributes without having quite clicked with Pukki yet. 

 

I think we have essentially said more or less the same thing in our respective posts, but this little snippet prompted another way of looking at it.

Looking at who 'works' with Pukki in our various setups, it is very much those players who release early, either 3/4 inside forwards like Buendia with threaded passes or give and goes or the longer channel passing midfielders like Vrancic and Stieperman who either don't dwell too long on the ball or who can hit the spaces that Pukki has seen.  Although your assessment is a little harsh on Cantwell who has had his moments with Pukki although I agree probably not as many as you,'d expect.

Absolute anathema to Pukki would be the more traditional wingers who probably feel that they have to dribble / beat a man / cross to justify their role but in any event will hang on to the ball much longer than arguably required allowing a defence to get set and sit deep.  Onel, Rashica and Tzolis would probably fall into this category.

There is far less of a perceived requirement for a 3/4 type player to judge success or failure by dribbling/ crossing success.  Argos could definitely bear this in mind ...  Plus the fact that they tend to come inside fullbacks which pulls central defenders across and which in turn allows quick one touch passing to open up gaps against turning defenders.

I suspect that although no Peter Crouch Pukki would have thrived on the sort of delivery that Beckham used to provide from wide right - those low, whipped crosses behind a defence which weren't traditional wing play because they were delivered so early.  

IMO the formation is significant, but only in so far as it either creates too much distance for passes to travel - which negates the extra split second that Pukki's movement buys him - or necessitates the type of traditional dribbling winger who also negates Pukki's movement by not releasing quickly or accurately enough or by not overloading those channels and creating spaces through quick passing combinations.

 

 

[hepphep 175]

21 hours ago, king canary said:

In my view the problem is largely that Pukki is a very one dimensional striker. He's incredible in that one dimension but the issue is you need everyone playing to his strengths at all times. Smith clearly wants a striker who can at times play with his back to goal, hit the channels and bring others into the game, none of which really suit Pukki. He's a good part of the build up when you're closer to the area and you've got those quick interchanges as he showed with Ramsey but closer to our end of the pitch he's largely ineffective. 

Your other point about playing him into a bit of space is true but its reliant on three things...

1. The space being available
2. Having the players who can put the right ball in there
3. That player and Pukki being on the same mental wavelength so his run is timed with the pass.

Point 3 is where we aren't there yet in my view. Too often a ball is played and Pukki isn't quite ready or expecting it and thus can't do what he needs to. When Sargent is up top his physicality allows him to sometimes make a bit more of those slightly aimless longer balls, where Pukki can be bullied off it. 

We're clearly at a cross roads with his contract up this season and if we don't think it'll be renewed then it makes sense to start trying to build a system that can suit multiple types of striker. 

I agree on most parts, but I think he is actually been pretty good in build-up on games where his role has allowed him to participate more. Creating chances for others is also something where he seems to be ahead from rest of the team, and being top of team's assists table (and 7th in league) tells something about that.

But totally agree that he is not sort of complete forward, but more suitable on play where ball stays on ground and team keeps up good pace.

[Petriix 2,834]

16 hours ago, Barham Blitz said:

IMO the formation is significant, but only in so far as it either creates too much distance for passes to travel - which negates the extra split second that Pukki's movement buys him - or necessitates the type of traditional dribbling winger who also negates Pukki's movement by not releasing quickly or accurately enough or by not overloading those channels and creating spaces through quick passing combinations.

Like I said, I think the formation is more significant than that because of Pukki's dependence on playing with another central attacker and where the default 'out ball' is. But otherwise we're in agreement.

[Canary Jedi 578]

If you watch Pukki he still makes those great runs between defenders but the ball doesn’t often get passed through to him in the way it used to be. Ability is mostly the issue I would guess.

[Google Bot 3,259]

8 hours ago, Canary Jedi said:

If you watch Pukki he still makes those great runs between defenders but the ball doesn’t often get passed through to him in the way it used to be

Oddly enough today I thought Sarge made a great run off the ball and Pukki failed to play it over to him.

Teemu was shaking his head plenty when being subbed too, don't know if it was related to a pull, or just dissapointed with his performance.  But looked very frustrated again to me.

[Canary Jedi 578]

2 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Oddly enough today I thought Sarge made a great run off the ball and Pukki failed to play it over to him.

Teemu was shaking his head plenty when being subbed too, don't know if it was related to a pull, or just dissapointed with his performance.  But looked very frustrated again to me.

It did seem quite early to take him off. We were still 1-0 up at the time, probably a coincidence but maybe the balance was upset

[Mella Yella 40]

Lots of talk about Emi, but for my money Stieperman was an unsung hero when it came to giving Pukki the sort of ball he thrives on. Jeez, its not rocket science, how come so many players are failing at this?