Tonight's games

[shefcanary 2,389]

Had a freebie at Bramall Lane tonight. Boy, Rotherham were up for it tonight whilst the Blades were definitely Blunt tonight. I was always confident we had the beating of Rotherham Saturday, tonight I could see they would not lose tonight although Stroud tried to help United out (at least he got that penalty decision right, same again from Rovrum, seems to be a trait they have). The Millers were very organised and sharp in the press, whilst the Blunts had too many players having an off night and once Fleck went off injured had no real steel in midfield. The promotion race is well and truly back on.

[Midlands Yellow 3,943]

4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

We don't have a better starting eleven than Burnley or Watford so we certainly have no divine right to have risen above.

It's been an incredibly competitive division which is why more credit should be given for away wins against the likes of Rotherham this season. They aren't walkovers

We should have a better staring eleven than Burnley, they sold anyone and everyone who was worth decent money in the sumner. What they do have are very clever coaches at this level. 

[hogesar 9,618]

16 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

We should have a better staring eleven than Burnley, they sold anyone and everyone who was worth decent money in the sumner. What they do have are very clever coaches at this level. 

Or they've recruited very well just like we did in Farkes first and second promotion seasons.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Where is the evidence that it's a poor league? 

[Branston Pickle 3,638]

15 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Where is the evidence that it's a poor league? 

….is it the fact that we are 4th? (I thought I’d just get in there first even though it’s rubbish!)

[Canaries north 151]

53 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Coventry probably have the best all round forward in the league, check out the 2nd goal tonight. 
 

https://twitter.com/hashtag/pusb?src=hashtag_click

 

I have seen him a few times this season on TV  and he is quality. I can see who ever gets promoted trying to snap him up. 

[Barham Blitz 652]

1 hour ago, Canaries north said:

I have seen him a few times this season on TV  and he is quality. I can see who ever gets promoted trying to snap him up. 

I'm surprised Hamer is still there as well.  Both very decent players.

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,251]

6 hours ago, Barham Blitz said:

I'm surprised Hamer is still there as well.  Both very decent players.

We should have signed both last summer… they were mentioned often on here.

[Gordon Bennett 780]

8 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Had a freebie at Bramall Lane tonight. Boy, Rotherham were up for it tonight whilst the Blades were definitely Blunt tonight. I was always confident we had the beating of Rotherham Saturday, tonight I could see they would not lose tonight although Stroud tried to help United out (at least he got that penalty decision right, same again from Rovrum, seems to be a trait they have). The Millers were very organised and sharp in the press, whilst the Blunts had too many players having an off night and once Fleck went off injured had no real steel in midfield. The promotion race is well and truly back on.

Don't think it was ever 'off'. This is a bonkers division and across 46 games we have as much chance as anyone of finishing in the top two.

[BurwellCanary 215]

1 hour ago, Gordon Bennett said:

Don't think it was ever 'off'. This is a bonkers division and across 46 games we have as much chance as anyone of finishing in the top two.

On that logic we have the same chance as finishing in the bottom two

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,735]

11 hours ago, hogesar said:

We don't have a better starting eleven than Burnley or Watford so we certainly have no divine right to have risen above.

It's been an incredibly competitive division which is why more credit should be given for away wins against the likes of Rotherham this season. They aren't walkovers

That might account for why we lost to Burnley and Watford...not for all the dropped points against everyone else

[king canary 7,580]

11 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

….is it the fact that we are 4th? (I thought I’d just get in there first even though it’s rubbish!)

It isn't rubbish though- it has been a poor league for a couple of years now.

Just look at the quality of teams making the top 6- last season you had a team starting a 35 year old Cameron Jerome in the play-offs. Covid and the subsequent financial holes have reduced the quality. 

[king canary 7,580]

11 hours ago, hogesar said:

Or they've recruited very well just like we did in Farkes first and second promotion seasons.

Yeah they do feel like they've become the 18/19 version of us- great use of the loan market and using the Belgium league like we used the German. Doubly impressive in some ways though that Kompany has got this all up and running in a couple of months.

[hogesar 9,618]

38 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

That might account for why we lost to Burnley and Watford...not for all the dropped points against everyone else

But they've also dropped points against poorer teams...thats what happens.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

It isn't rubbish though- it has been a poor league for a couple of years now.

Just look at the quality of teams making the top 6- last season you had a team starting a 35 year old Cameron Jerome in the play-offs. Covid and the subsequent financial holes have reduced the quality. 

This is an interesting point. Has covid reduced the quality of all the leagues or just the championship? Is it just this country or is it all countries? 

[king canary 7,580]

2 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

This is an interesting point. Has covid reduced the quality of all the leagues or just the championship? Is it just this country or is it all countries? 

I think it has hit the Championship harder than most. 

Previously Championship clubs could offer more in terms of wages and fees but now you've got a large % of the league not spending a penny on fees in whole windows. The overall Championship expenditure dropped like a stone with covid and it hasn't recovered. 

I can't speak to other countries but the Championship was extremely vulnerable due to the amount of clubs that were, pre covid, spending over 100% of revenue on wages and were subsidised by rich owners. Once you take ticket revenue out of that equation and add in some of these owners own business interests suffering it has been a recipe for fairly hefty cost cutting, thus reducing the incoming quality.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

14 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think it has hit the Championship harder than most. 

Previously Championship clubs could offer more in terms of wages and fees but now you've got a large % of the league not spending a penny on fees in whole windows. The overall Championship expenditure dropped like a stone with covid and it hasn't recovered. 

I can't speak to other countries but the Championship was extremely vulnerable due to the amount of clubs that were, pre covid, spending over 100% of revenue on wages and were subsidised by rich owners. Once you take ticket revenue out of that equation and add in some of these owners own business interests suffering it has been a recipe for fairly hefty cost cutting, thus reducing the incoming quality.

Thanks Kingo. That's interesting, if you're right the gap between the champs and prem will become a chasm and the gap between the champs and league one will close. The current league tables tell us little. But then due to players contracts these things take a while.

In general I'm not sure money determines the quality as much as some believe. Whilst the very best players command the highest wages, this has a knock on effect where average players wages rise too. As the TV deals go up I'm not convinced the quality rises with them.

[BigFish 1,986]

2 hours ago, king canary said:

It isn't rubbish though- it has been a poor league for a couple of years now.

Just look at the quality of teams making the top 6- last season you had a team starting a 35 year old Cameron Jerome in the play-offs. Covid and the subsequent financial holes have reduced the quality. 

The supposed lack of quality of the Champs is clearly a stick with which malcontents like to use to beat the club with e.g. we should be miles ahead but we are not because of Webber, Smith and the players not being good enough. There is an element of truth in this assessment of Champs quality, not because of Covid but because of the EPL and the modern game. Top clubs now hoard the best players in bigger squads. This is in part due to the increase in the number of subs but also the practice of player farming and simply because they have more cash.

However, it is also rubbish. The above has been the case for many years, there is no evidence that this year is worse than last, or even the previous half dozen. In fact the contary seems to be the case. As @Parma Ham's gone mouldy notes elsewhere teams are better coached/managed to mirror EPL teams even though the players lack the physical and mental attributes to implement strategies as successfully as their EPL peers.

In part the view is a matter of perception. The quality gap between the EPL and the Champs is big and getting bigger. Not because the quality of the Champs is falling. Teams are getting bigger, stronger, faster, more technical and clever in the Champs. But the EPL is doing this faster. It is hard getting out of the champs, particularly when squeezing 46 games into a compressed season. It is an achievement to go up. It is not a cake walk. That is why we lose games.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I have seen an improvement in the style of football played in L1/2. No longer just boot it up the pitch. Played properly from the back through midfield. But its much slower than the Championship.

I agree the standard of the Championship seems to be not as good. Whether that is because the EPL standard has risen among the stronger, bigger clubs is arguable.

But I think we virtually all admit we haven't hit our straps yet and here we are fourth. Three of the top five are from last season's EPL and I don't doubt will remain in the top six. And we know that parachute payments either help relegated sides retain some better players or go out and replace them.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

3 hours ago, BigFish said:

The supposed lack of quality of the Champs is clearly a stick with which malcontents like to use to beat the club with e.g. we should be miles ahead but we are not because of Webber, Smith and the players not being good enough. There is an element of truth in this assessment of Champs quality, not because of Covid but because of the EPL and the modern game. Top clubs now hoard the best players in bigger squads. This is in part due to the increase in the number of subs but also the practice of player farming and simply because they have more cash.

However, it is also rubbish. The above has been the case for many years, there is no evidence that this year is worse than last, or even the previous half dozen. In fact the contary seems to be the case. As @Parma Ham's gone mouldy notes elsewhere teams are better coached/managed to mirror EPL teams even though the players lack the physical and mental attributes to implement strategies as successfully as their EPL peers.

In part the view is a matter of perception. The quality gap between the EPL and the Champs is big and getting bigger. Not because the quality of the Champs is falling. Teams are getting bigger, stronger, faster, more technical and clever in the Champs. But the EPL is doing this faster. It is hard getting out of the champs, particularly when squeezing 46 games into a compressed season. It is an achievement to go up. It is not a cake walk. That is why we lose games.

Teams are certainly better at stopping other teams playing as they wish.

A well organised side is hard to beat without weapons, better players in almost every position , or a very interesting alternative methodology.

Reducing games to as near to 50-50 luck as possible is a good (pre) result for the inferior. 

Better coaches ensuring that ‘opening up to create’ is tactically an expensive thing to do. 

Parma

[hogesar 9,618]

1 hour ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Teams are certainly better at stopping other teams playing as they wish.

A well organised side is hard to beat without weapons, better players in almost every position , or a very interesting alternative methodology.

Reducing games to as near to 50-50 luck as possible is a good (pre) result for the inferior. 

Better coaches ensuring that ‘opening up to create’ is tactically an expensive thing to do. 

Parma

I agree with that Parma.

I also agree with @king canary that the overall quality of the league has reduced. However, i do think even the poorer teams are less tactically naive. The poorer teams are as Parma says, setting up to prevent the opposition whereas in previous years you'd have poor teams going gung-ho at us at times.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

9 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I agree with that Parma.

I also agree with @king canary that the overall quality of the league has reduced. However, i do think even the poorer teams are less tactically naive. The poorer teams are as Parma says, setting up to prevent the opposition whereas in previous years you'd have poor teams going gung-ho at us at times.

In a coaching sense, Stopping is far easier than creating.

You can also do it with less sophisticated players. The reverse is typically not true (though 2D football is an obvious exception)

Parma 

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

6 hours ago, BigFish said:

The supposed lack of quality of the Champs is clearly a stick with which malcontents like to use to beat the club with e.g. we should be miles ahead but we are not because of Webber, Smith and the players not being good enough. There is an element of truth in this assessment of Champs quality, not because of Covid but because of the EPL and the modern game. Top clubs now hoard the best players in bigger squads. This is in part due to the increase in the number of subs but also the practice of player farming and simply because they have more cash.

However, it is also rubbish. The above has been the case for many years, there is no evidence that this year is worse than last, or even the previous half dozen. In fact the contary seems to be the case. As @Parma Ham's gone mouldy notes elsewhere teams are better coached/managed to mirror EPL teams even though the players lack the physical and mental attributes to implement strategies as successfully as their EPL peers.

In part the view is a matter of perception. The quality gap between the EPL and the Champs is big and getting bigger. Not because the quality of the Champs is falling. Teams are getting bigger, stronger, faster, more technical and clever in the Champs. But the EPL is doing this faster. It is hard getting out of the champs, particularly when squeezing 46 games into a compressed season. It is an achievement to go up. It is not a cake walk. That is why we lose games.

I agree re the hoarding of players at epl clubs. I’d be interested to see the number of teams that are successful or dominate in the championship using loan players from epl clubs as their platform. Buying stand out players at this level is rare and I’d wager there are more Skipp’s than Buendia’s at this level, particularly with the lower risk financial aspect. The depth of the larger clubs is both the catalyst for success of the second division and the reason why they’re seemingly doomed to fall straight back down. We are guilty too, if we look at how we are deploying Mumba at Plymouth for example. 

Edited November 9, 2022 by SwearyCanary

[king canary 7,580]

20 hours ago, BigFish said:

The supposed lack of quality of the Champs is clearly a stick with which malcontents like to use to beat the club with e.g. we should be miles ahead but we are not because of Webber, Smith and the players not being good enough. There is an element of truth in this assessment of Champs quality, not because of Covid but because of the EPL and the modern game. Top clubs now hoard the best players in bigger squads. This is in part due to the increase in the number of subs but also the practice of player farming and simply because they have more cash.

However, it is also rubbish. The above has been the case for many years, there is no evidence that this year is worse than last, or even the previous half dozen. In fact the contary seems to be the case. As @Parma Ham's gone mouldy notes elsewhere teams are better coached/managed to mirror EPL teams even though the players lack the physical and mental attributes to implement strategies as successfully as their EPL peers.

In part the view is a matter of perception. The quality gap between the EPL and the Champs is big and getting bigger. Not because the quality of the Champs is falling. Teams are getting bigger, stronger, faster, more technical and clever in the Champs. But the EPL is doing this faster. It is hard getting out of the champs, particularly when squeezing 46 games into a compressed season. It is an achievement to go up. It is not a cake walk. That is why we lose games.

It isn't always 'us vs them.' Saying the quality of the league has decreased is used by some as a stick, sure but that doesn't mean it doesn't have some merit as an opinion.

The obvious issue is that 'quality' is subjective. You can't empirically prove one season is better than another. But based on what I've seen this season (and as someone with two kids under 4 I don't get to go out much so I've seen quite a bit from my sofa) and last season it seems pretty clear to me. 

It is notable for instance that Blackburn are 2nd despite losing 8 games already. By comparison us and Brentford only lost 7 all season we got promoted and Watford lost 9. I agree with you and Parma that teams are better coached but as Parma says this is more about being organised, disciplined and good at stopping teams. They are doing more with lesser players. But sit down and watch 90 minutes of Sheffield United, QPR or Preston and tell me where the quality lies because I just don't see it.