Are we all happy tonight?

[TIL 1010 4,722]

Spice Girls started Girl Power, sexist bunch.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I think its always awkward when men try to claim things offend people without any knowledge of it. 

MOTM is fine, there's no intention to offend with it and it's less literal than some make out anyway. If someone was non binary and won MOTM I'm sure we would all be happy to refer to it as POTM but all in all it shouldn't be a big deal either way. 

For most fans it'll always be MOTM

Not sure the first sentence is relevant. When I have to refer non binary pupils to the limited counselling services that we can signpost them to because they relentlessly self harm due to feeling that they ‘don’t belong’. I’d say my knowledge is pretty good on the subject. 

I totally agree that MOTM has no intention to offend and also accept  that for some/many it will never be anything else. I also agree that it being POTM will be happily what people do refer to it as, especially when it’s had more and more mainstream usage so we clearly agree on a lot.

My point and my raising it was a RESPONSE to others raising it as ‘crazy’ so the reason why could be presented rather than just accepting people thinking non binary people are ‘crazy’. It may have been completely innocent but, as I said, the consequences are very real. I’m not a bystander and if it’s allowed to go unchallenged progress never gets made. It’s a small gesture but the reaction towards it being raised show just why it needs to continue to be challenged. 

[Richard Richard 186]

1 hour ago, SwearyCanary said:

Whilst I respect this completely I do just want to end by saying I’m not trying to tell you what to think, but point out that MOTM causes some people upset. Not me but some people. I can’t understand why something so simple as changing the word ‘Man’ to ‘Player’ causes more upset to some for seemingly no reason other than it being ‘change’ when the alternative is it causes genuine upset to others for clear and identifiable reasons. That’s the thing I struggle to understand. I’m open minded enough to listen to an argument to persuade me why changing it is upsetting, aside from just not liking change in general. 

I struggle with the change because I see no need for it.

Exactly WHO gets upset by this? Not me. Not my mates. Not any work colleagues I know. In fact, I can honestly say I don't think I know anyone who would genuinely feel they would be upset playing in a men's football match and being called Man of the Match.

I think the reality is, as with many of today's current issues, they are being driven by a tiny, vocal minority whilst the mainly-silent majority don't really see an issue.

It doesn't make the silent majority a bunch of closed-minded bigots.

As with a growing number of aspects in modern life, things change to accommodate the tiniest of minorities and, if you don't agree or go along with it, you're labelled as a hostile dinosaur.

[Canario 204]

Well that escalated pretty quickly! Being out of the country I hadn't seen "potm" before and thought Max may have had some kind of post traumatic issues with Deano's management style. 

Was a comment around the rapid americanisation of things in general. If there is a "culture" you shouldn't want to follow then that would be it. 

Still, given the Brexit and Troy votes, it would seem im in a minority on that one. 

For what it's worth, as the club of Justin Fashanu, it would be nice to think that we would be at the forefront of such changes so if that is the current preferred abbreviation then all good. Lakey also talking some sense - pigeonholing is never good and if Graham Dorrans wants to be a left winger then he can be a left winger!

 

 

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

22 minutes ago, TIL 1010 said:

Spice Girls started Girl Power, sexist bunch.

Only if they said boy power was somehow inferior to girl power, which they didn’t of course. As the oppressed gender for the last few centuries I’d say their slogan and their success inspired a generation of people. Although I appreciate your comment was tongue in cheek. Unless it wasn’t, in which case you’re a dinosaur 

[shefcanary 2,388]

56 minutes ago, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

Its thought it was "Blunts" and "Pigs" in Sheffield........

Strangely they both refer to each other as Pigs! Blunts and Wendy's, pigs and pigs. 🤣

[......and Smith must score. 1,336]

‘ Ha, Ha Said The Clown ‘ by Personfred Person sounds a reasonable slant on how some see it on here.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

2 minutes ago, Richard Richard said:

I struggle with the change because I see no need for it.

Exactly WHO gets upset by this? Not me. Not my mates. Not any work colleagues I know. In fact, I can honestly say I don't think I know anyone who would genuinely feel they would be upset playing in a men's football match and being called Man of the Match.

I think the reality is, as with many of today's current issues, they are being driven by a tiny, vocal minority whilst the mainly-silent majority don't really see an issue.

It doesn't make the silent majority a bunch of closed-minded bigots.

As with a growing number of aspects in modern life, things change to accommodate the tiniest of minorities and, if you don't agree or go along with it, you're labelled as a hostile dinosaur.

So minorities should be invalidated?

Just because you don’t see it in your social circle it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. If it did exist in your social circle, do you think with the views you express would encourage anyone that had so far not told anyone about their identity to mention it down the pub? “Funny you should mention how ridiculous non binary is Rich, because that’s me snd now I know how you truly feel.”
None of my friends as far as I know are racist, but some people are racist. Are you saying that as Norfolk as a county has a tiny minority of ethnic diversity that any racism or prejudice are not really bad or worth changing - because it’s only a handful being impacted. Not experiencing it as an issue is not justification for feeling it isn’t one. 

Ive pointed out the reason why the change is needed, that you’ve ignored that is odd. Reasonable change that in no way impacts on your enjoyment of football is surely not an issue? 

[Richard Richard 186]

5 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

So minorities should be invalidated?

Just because you don’t see it in your social circle it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. If it did exist in your social circle, do you think with the views you express would encourage anyone that had so far not told anyone about their identity to mention it down the pub? “Funny you should mention how ridiculous non binary is Rich, because that’s me snd now I know how you truly feel.”
None of my friends as far as I know are racist, but some people are racist. Are you saying that as Norfolk as a county has a tiny minority of ethnic diversity that any racism or prejudice are not really bad or worth changing - because it’s only a handful being impacted. Not experiencing it as an issue is not justification for feeling it isn’t one. 

Ive pointed out the reason why the change is needed, that you’ve ignored that is odd. Reasonable change that in no way impacts on your enjoyment of football is surely not an issue? 

I agree that my apparent lack of exposure to the individuals upset by the current/old terminoligy in football will limit my capacity to understand it. That's only natural.

But I am unsure quite how I've never encountered the upset first-hand. I'm in my mid-forties and have lead far from a sheltered life...

Anyway.... I'll leave it there though as we're going round in circles, never to agree - and the rest of the forum will be getting bored!

I'd shake your hand on here if I could, you'll have to settle for another👍for now.

 

 

[Clever Farke 64]

Happy for Kenny! Wasn’t it at Rotherham he sustained the knee injury that put him out of the Scotland squad for the Euros? Much maligned as he is, I think he deserved his slice of fortune. 

[Besthorpe-48 102]

15 hours ago, duke63 said:

Well borrow £100 million and buy it then. 

I sense a change in mood. No doubt many of us have some reservations but us happy clappers are having a go back at the grumpy dumplings of whom nexus is a prime example. I think we are getting near a settled team with a workable diamond structure a la Lambert. 

When we look back the nil nil draws with qpr will be seen as a turning point because we made more chances playing direct football and winning away at Rotherham whilst potential play off challengers Watford Sunderland and qpr all lost to lower placed teams a very positive outcome. We also caught up 3 points on   burnley

Middlesbrough will be very important as the world cup break will give DS a chance to get more players fit

I expect to hear from nexus so if Gordon Bennett is your dad please call me Grandad.

Thanks OTForum HC

 

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

14 minutes ago, Richard Richard said:

I agree that my apparent lack of exposure to the individuals upset by the current/old terminoligy in football will limit my capacity to understand it. That's only natural.

But I am unsure quite how I've never encountered the upset first-hand. I'm in my mid-forties and have lead far from a sheltered life...

Anyway.... I'll leave it there though as we're going round in circles, never to agree - and the rest of the forum will be getting bored!

I'd shake your hand on here if I could, you'll have to settle for another👍for now.

 

 

I’m out of reactions but consider the hand shake greeted in kind. 
👍, nice to have a good respectful debate.

OTBC 

[Nexus_Canary 1,016]

5 hours ago, hogesar said:

Didn't realise you were that ugly mate.

My deepest condolences ❤️

[CirclePoint 200]

17 hours ago, Ian said:

Actually feel a bit sorry for people who make comments like these. Must be a sad way of life.

Why? It’s only an opinion.

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,020]

1 hour ago, shefcanary said:

Strangely they both refer to each other as Pigs! Blunts and Wendy's, pigs and pigs. 🤣

Many moons ago I researched this after talking to some Sheff Utd fans. From what I can work out United fans call Wednesday fans "Pigs" because , allegedly their ground was built on the site of an old pigsty and Wednesday fans call United fans "Pigs" because the United kit of red and white kit looks like rashers of bacon...........

[shefcanary 2,388]

2 minutes ago, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

Many moons ago I researched this after talking to some Sheff Utd fans. From what I can work out United fans call Wednesday fans "Pigs" because , allegedly their ground was built on the site of an old pigsty and Wednesday fans call United fans "Pigs" because the United kit of red and white kit looks like rashers of bacon...........

Yep, that's the full story. Hillsborough was beyond the city limits when it was first built on, it was farm and grazing land, the city has grown around it.

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

6 hours ago, lake district canary said:

It's called mens football, as opposed to ladies football, so Man of the Match is perfectly fine. If a player isn't a man or identified as one, what is he doing in "mens football" at all?   Or maybe it should be "Male of the match"....or maybe mens football itself should be called "Male and all variations thereof Football".................

Crazy times.

In that case, a little reminder of the story of Jaiyah Saelua may be needed. First ever transgender football player to be in a men's World Cup qualifying match. She played for the American Samoa national side - Polynesian culture has a third gender called fa'afafine.

Jaiyah Saelua - Wikipedia

Edited November 6, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[littleyellowbirdie 2,511]

5 hours ago, kirku said:

Why do you care?

Because that's the way things have always been, I would imagine. I accept it, but I agree with Lakey that it all feels like an artificial, top-down attempt at forcing change in attitudes because a small minority have decided that this is how people should think.

[chicken 2,604]

18 hours ago, AJ said:

We looked better for large periods today but still some odd management choices, as always such as benching Todd 🤷🏻‍♂️

I think if we had played a 4-3-3 then I would be inclined to agree.

But then if you are a manager with three players who are scoring goals, you'd probably want to try and fit them into a system. As folks have been saying, playing Sargent wide has been causing issues both with natural width but also in getting Sargent into positions to strike at goal when he is being asked to get back and cover too.

It was a straight toss up between Cantwell, Dowell and Ramsey for that No.10 role at the tip of the diamond, and one of those has assists and goals to his name in the last few games.

I would agree that I would prefer to see Todd player there because he is our player and he is starting to look like he is approaching being as good as he was in our previous promotion season and more minutes will only push him to be sharper and more consistent. But I can see why that choice was made.

Ultimately, it paid off too as Ramsey scored. 

[chicken 2,604]

4 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

You’re right. Let’s hold back on doing the right thing because it lacks alliteration and timbre. 

What does it actually matter that it’s POTM instead of MOTM if it means people that don’t identify in a binary way, whether they play football or not, feel happier and more accepted in society? 

If I'm honest, I am a tad surprised that they haven't gone for something more tried and tested and already part of other sports. I know some will not like it and suggest it is an Americanisation (US)...

MVP - Most Valuable Player.

To me, MotM has always been a bit of a weird one. In that it isn't exactly clear in it's own title what it means. Most Valuable Player is pretty self explanatory. It's the player that has been the most valuable to the team in that fixture.

Otherwise, I don't think it really matters at all. Being able to use the same term across mens/ladies football makes sense and making it so that it can cover all genders and pronouns etc also makes perfect sense in this day and age.

But then I've long embraced change as inevitable and once you do that, you can see changes coming and they creep up and surprise you less.  

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

6 hours ago, hogesar said:

I think that's slightly unfair. The game you're talking about under Farke we actually gave Rotherham more chances and didn't create anymore ourselves. The other time we beat Rotherham we needed a 95 minute penalty to beat them, also under Farke.

Had the ref done his job they'd likely have been down to 10 and we would definitely have had a penalty for handball...

Small margins, as they say.

Well I was at both games and I felt at the previous 2-1 we did create more and gave them fewer good chances. But, even if we say both City performances were about the same, isn’t that the point? Because the win under Farke was probably an average game by his standards in the Champs, whereas yesterday was one of the better performances we’ve seen under Smith at this level. In fact, have we seen City play better over a full game under his tenure? That’s the worry for me , plus the lack of signs of real progress.

 

others are seeing positive signs in the recent performances, I hope to be proved wrong but for me it’s similar to the earlier winning run - we’re edging games and not looking convincing, and in the end that’s probably good enough for a playoff spot at best.

[kirku 1,332]

34 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Because that's the way things have always been, I would imagine. I accept it, but I agree with Lakey that it all feels like an artificial, top-down attempt at forcing change in attitudes because a small minority have decided that this is how people should think.

Things change. You would've heard similar (and still will in some places, like Iran) arguments against universal suffrage. 

I'll still be calling it MOTM out of habit but I can't understand people getting upset about a football *player* being given a *player* of the match award. 

Absolutely reeks of culture wars nonsense to me.

[kirku 1,332]

3 hours ago, lake district canary said:

I'm all for equality and acceptance for all - but we all have to fit in to society somehow - but for me a healthy society is all accepting and labels do not help that imo.  If everyone just treated each other with respect and acceptance, anyone, whatever category they identify with, would feel ok about being themselves.

So surely calling a football player the "potm" is an entirely uncontroversial award that can be used in all situations?

I can't see why anyone would object to that. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,511]

25 minutes ago, kirku said:

Things change. You would've heard similar (and still will in some places, like Iran) arguments against universal suffrage. 

I'll still be calling it MOTM out of habit but I can't understand people getting upset about a football *player* being given a *player* of the match award. 

Absolutely reeks of culture wars nonsense to me.

I think it comes down to the methods: The changes are just quietly slipped in there to push adoption of minority ideas of how society should function before the ideas are popularly accepted.

Universal suffrage in Iran is the opposite: widespread popular support for ideas being put down by government and suppressed in the media and politics.

[Ian 1,129]

2 hours ago, CirclePoint said:

Why? It’s only an opinion.

Of course. But in my opinion it is a genuinely sad reflection on modern football if, as a Norwich supporter, your immediate thoughts after an away win, cutting the gap to first by 3 points, and a generally positive and improving performance is to be unhappy just because Dean Smith is at the helm.

[Ian 1,129]

19 hours ago, Nexus_Canary said:

I want my club back and under Dean Smith that is not happening. 
Let me winge and moan to my hearts content and mind your own business.

Without touching on the definition of what "your club is", you quite literally posted on a public message board in response to a discussion topic.

Bit rich to tell someone to then mind their own business. Probably best to keep your opinions to yourself if you don't want them challenged.

[Nexus_Canary 1,016]

7 minutes ago, Ian said:

Without touching on the definition of what "your club is", you quite literally posted on a public message board in response to a discussion topic.

Bit rich to tell someone to then mind their own business. Probably best to keep your opinions to yourself if you don't want them challenged.

I stick to what I said.

Now gfy

[Ian 1,129]

14 minutes ago, Nexus_Canary said:

I stick to what I said.

Now gfy

Sure, whatever you say.

Maybe next time suffix your posts with a trigger warning if you are feeling too thin-skinned to have them discussed, will save a bit of unpleasantness. 👍

[Branston Pickle 3,638]

3 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Strangely they both refer to each other as Pigs! Blunts and Wendy's, pigs and pigs. 🤣

I’ve always found that odd - I initially thought it was just the SW fans that did it, saying it was because the Utd kits looked like bacon rashers - this actually made sense so I was rather surprised it went both ways. 

[kirku 1,332]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I think it comes down to the methods: The changes are just quietly slipped in there to push adoption of minority ideas of how society should function before the ideas are popularly accepted.

Universal suffrage in Iran is the opposite: widespread popular support for ideas being put down by government and suppressed in the media and politics.

It certainly wasn't a mainstream idea in the UK in the early 1900s, wherein people would've been saying,

"Because that's the way things have always been - this is an attempt at forcing change in attitudes because a small minority have decided that this is how people should think."

Can you think of a genuine reason why you'd oppose a football *player* being given a *player* of the match award, besides the fact that we've all grown up with a different term?