Which winger should we have kept here?

[Canary dwarf 221]

1 minute ago, kirku said:

Goal machine?

He scored 14 goals in the 6 seasons before joining Norwich.

 

I'm sure he was third top goalscorer one season only behind lemandowski and agbamayang

[kirku 1,332]

1 minute ago, Canary dwarf said:

I'm sure he was third top goalscorer one season only behind lemandowski and agbamayang

In 2013

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

5 hours ago, kirku said:

de Bruyne, Gundogan, Sane, Firmino, Aubameyang, and Son are also really average

Fair play Kirku, that's a strong list, strong enough for me to not even bother attempting to counter.

Your maths however leaves a lot to be desired...

5 hours ago, kirku said:

Goal machine?

He scored 14 goals in the 6 seasons before joining Norwich.

5 hours ago, kirku said:

In 2013

Joined us in July 2019 for the 2019/2020 season, so his 6 prior seasons:

2018/19 - 2 goals

2017/18 - 4 goals

2016/17 - 0 goals

2015/16 - 2 goals

2014/15 - 6 goals

2013/14 - 17 goals

Yes, that includes 2013.

So its 14 goals in 5 seasons, not 6 seasons. However it was also 14 goals in 2599 minutes on the pitch, which I think tells a much different story, 1 goal in every 185 minutes. Top scorer in the Championship this season has 1 goal in every 175 minutes, and Teemu Pukki is lagging behind with 1 goal every 222 minutes.

[AJ 1,218]

A good right winger would be stopping Smith from playing Sargent out of position. Please can we sign one in January?

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

5 hours ago, king canary said:

Premier League and three time FA Cup winner Michael Ballack was meh? 

Got left out of the squad for the 2006/07 final.

Played half an hour off the bench for the 2008/09 final.

Got subbed off in the 44th minute of the 2009/10 final.

Yes, with the CV and the reputation that he came with he was a bit "meh", and at Chelsea was merely a squad player who often found it difficult to get starts ahead of a Essien, Lampard, and even John Obi Mikel (who, incidentally, played the entirety of two of those FA Cup finals), and for a period Makelele.

He never hit the heights that he did with Bayern or with Germany.

[king canary 7,580]

11 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Got left out of the squad for the 2006/07 final.

Played half an hour off the bench for the 2008/09 final.

Got subbed off in the 44th minute of the 2009/10 final.

Yes, with the CV and the reputation that he came with he was a bit "meh", and at Chelsea was merely a squad player who often found it difficult to get starts ahead of a Essien, Lampard, and even John Obi Mikel (who, incidentally, played the entirety of two of those FA Cup finals), and for a period Makelele.

He never hit the heights that he did with Bayern or with Germany.

Well yeah that is because they win everything.

Think there is a fair bit of middle ground between that and 'meh.'

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

8 minutes ago, king canary said:

Well yeah that is because they win everything.

Think there is a fair bit of middle ground between that and 'meh.'

I meant meh relative to his profile, reputation and prior CV, including his status as arguably Germany's star player at the time. It was huge news when Chelsea landed him on a bosman over Man Utd who were desperate to sign him (yes, turned down Fergie!).

He spent four years living in Lampards shadow.

Mitigating factor might be that he was just too similar to Lampard, so ended up having to play deeper than he would have liked and therefore wasn't able to replicate his goalscoring record at Bayern and Germany. It was probably a bit similar to the Gerrard & Lampard dilemma for England, great individuals but not the right dynamic to succeed together.

For his legacy he really chose the wrong club.

Edited November 4, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[king canary 7,580]

20 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I meant meh relative to his profile, reputation and prior CV, including his status as arguably Germany's star player at the time. It was huge news when Chelsea landed him on a bosman over Man Utd who were desperate to sign him (yes, turned down Fergie!).

He spent four years living in Lampards shadow.

Mitigating factor might be that he was just too similar to Lampard, so ended up having to play deeper than he would have liked and therefore wasn't able to replicate his goalscoring record at Bayern and Germany. It was probably a bit similar to the Gerrard & Lampard dilemma for England, great individuals but not the right dynamic to succeed together.

For his legacy he really chose the wrong club.

Think this is just going to be one of those 'agree to disagree' moments.

[kirku 1,332]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Fair play Kirku, that's a strong list, strong enough for me to not even bother attempting to counter.

Your maths however leaves a lot to be desired...

Joined us in July 2019 for the 2019/2020 season, so his 6 prior seasons:

2018/19 - 2 goals

2017/18 - 4 goals

2016/17 - 0 goals

2015/16 - 2 goals

2014/15 - 6 goals

2013/14 - 17 goals

Yes, that includes 2013.

So its 14 goals in 5 seasons, not 6 seasons. However it was also 14 goals in 2599 minutes on the pitch, which I think tells a much different story, 1 goal in every 185 minutes. Top scorer in the Championship this season has 1 goal in every 175 minutes, and Teemu Pukki is lagging behind with 1 goal every 222 minutes.

Indeed - I glanced at his stats and didn't realise he moved mid-season.

The point very much remains, though. He wasn't a 'goal machine' by any stretch of the imagination.

Webber gambled, and lost, on resurrecting a once promising player who failed to live up to some early promise (seemingly through a combination of questionable attitude and injuries).

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 hour ago, kirku said:

Indeed - I glanced at his stats and didn't realise he moved mid-season.

The point very much remains, though. He wasn't a 'goal machine' by any stretch of the imagination.

Webber gambled, and lost, on resurrecting a once promising player who failed to live up to some early promise (seemingly through a combination of questionable attitude and injuries).

Yeah, to be fair it was probably a gamble worth taking that time, and it did come off with Krul who'd barely played for 3 years, so he had credit in the bank to take that punt.

I also think that it was Drmic's body language, lack of effort and then pathetic red card towards the end of that season (and smiling as he walked off the pitch) which finished him off here. If he fought to the end and grabbed another goal or two perhaps he'd have got another shot in the Championship instead of being packed off to Croatia. He did look more dangerous around the box than his goal tally suggested.

Not that he'll have any regrets as he's basically established himself again he's been having great fun over there and now back playing European football, but still... think it was attitude which led us to bin him off, rather than his lack of goals.

I was more angry about the Normann gamble really, he was injury prone when we signed him and then we relied on him as our only DM in a crucial season. If he were one of two defensive midfielders perhaps it would have been more understandable.

Edited November 4, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

It doesn't surprise me that Placheta is bottom of this poll below two players who are plying their trade in League One,  it amazes me that he's got 12 Premier League appearances on his CV after looking so out of his depth in the Championship.

Edited November 4, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[kirku 1,332]

17 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I was more angry about the Normann gamble really, he was injury prone when we signed him and then we relied on him as our only DM in a crucial season. If he were one of two defensive midfielders perhaps it would have been more understandable.

Don't disagree on the Drmic punt - but as you say, his attitude seemed toxic which made it even worse.

As for Normann, very strange one. I remember reading a quite a few posts when he first signed that he wasn't a DM, and it seemed to me that they wanted to play Gilmour, PLM and Normann as a 3, with Gilmour potentially being the deeper of the 3 and the other two providing more dynamism and physicality alongside.

Worked well, that.

[kirku 1,332]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

It doesn't surprise me that Placheta is bottom of this poll below two players who are plying their trade in League One,  it amazes me that he's got 12 Premier League appearances on his CV after looking so out of his depth in the Championship.

I'm more shocked Tzolis is top.

He's absolutely failed at Twente by most accounts. What people think he'd contribute here, I don't know.

Edited November 4, 2022 by kirku

[corbs 147]

Never go for this format 

[nutty nigel 7,510]

"It's a positive. He (Jon Rowe) hasn't trained with us yet, he'll train with us in the World Cup break. The same for Adam Idah, Andrew Omobamidele and Lungi Sørensen. After that, we should have a full squad.

[chicken 2,604]

There is a slight issue with this poll in that Mumba is largely seen as a fullback but is currently being deployed as a wing back. I would suggest not too different to Aarons in a sense (though not sure we'd see Aarons hit the sort of shot Mumba scored Vs Exeter). 

 

[chicken 2,604]

1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

"It's a positive. He (Jon Rowe) hasn't trained with us yet, he'll train with us in the World Cup break. The same for Adam Idah, Andrew Omobamidele and Lungi Sørensen. After that, we should have a full squad.

Yup, worth noting the bit about 4 strikers as well - Idah has been out for some time. Since before the start of the season. I suspect were he fully fit he'd either have been loaned out or Hugill would have been.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in Jan as Idah was one of the players who seemed to respond well to Smith coming in. Whether they feel he'd be better served going out on loan in January or kept as the 3rd option with  Hugill going out on loan, we'll have to see. Only one of them is contracted beyond next summer I believe and it's not Hugill - so that may also be a deciding factor. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

5 minutes ago, chicken said:

There is a slight issue with this poll in that Mumba is largely seen as a fullback but is currently being deployed as a wing back. I would suggest not too different to Aarons in a sense (though not sure we'd see Aarons hit the sort of shot Mumba scored Vs Exeter). 

So in his career so far, for all teams he's played for (this includes U18 Prem and Prem 2 for U21s), he's played in these positions... I don't know if wing back is being counted as full back or wide midfield in this graphic, but Peterborough used him as a winger and when he burst into our side it was a left midfielder.

Where I'm sure we will agree though is that ideally he'd find one position and settle in it, I think players that are too much of a 'utility player' are bound to become a jack of all trades, master of one, like Jacob Sorenson, and it would be best for all concerned if he could master one.

Edited November 4, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[sgncfc 1,223]

None of them are good enough to play in a first choice eleven. I still have hope for Tzolis and Mumba. The others we should just get rid of.

[chicken 2,604]

17 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

So in his career so far, for all teams he's played for (this includes U18 Prem and Prem 2 for U21s), he's played in these positions... I don't know if wing back is being counted as full back or wide midfield in this graphic, but Peterborough used him as a winger and when he burst into our side it was a left midfielder.

Where I'm sure we will agree though is that ideally he'd find one position and settle in it, I think players that are too much of a 'utility player' are bound to become a jack of all trades, master of one, like Jacob Sorenson, and it would be best for all concerned if he could master one.

I note that "wingback" isn't an option there. Would be interesting to see where that is considered to fit. However, I do disagree.

He's played at right back 29 times, 13 times more than any other position. We know he is playing wing back for Plymouth Argyle and we also know he considers himself a full back and most places have that as his recorded position.

I can pretty much guarantee you that he wasn't loaned out because he was behind too many wingers to get game time. He is behind two full backs on either side, though he is naturally right footed and we have two very experienced players in that position in Aarons and Byram.

Yes there is still an argument about what his actual best position is. In this situation though, it only makes a bigger question mark over whether he is a winger or not. Which is perhaps a good thing why he is out on loan, trying to get more games under his belt and get a better feel for where he would prefer to play.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

39 minutes ago, chicken said:

I note that "wingback" isn't an option there. Would be interesting to see where that is considered to fit. 

I said that though, I have no idea.

[nutty nigel 7,510]

1 hour ago, chicken said:

Yup, worth noting the bit about 4 strikers as well - Idah has been out for some time. Since before the start of the season. I suspect were he fully fit he'd either have been loaned out or Hugill would have been.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in Jan as Idah was one of the players who seemed to respond well to Smith coming in. Whether they feel he'd be better served going out on loan in January or kept as the 3rd option with  Hugill going out on loan, we'll have to see. Only one of them is contracted beyond next summer I believe and it's not Hugill - so that may also be a deciding factor. 

If he can keep Hugill and Idah happy here until the summer I'd keep both. Oppositions hate fresh strikers coming on. If one went out on loan that's Hugill for me. 

 

[canarybubbles 1,915]

7 hours ago, kirku said:

I'm more shocked Tzolis is top.

He's absolutely failed at Twente by most accounts. What people think he'd contribute here, I don't know.

He has a long-term injury which he picked up some time ago, maybe six weeks or two months? Before that, he was doing OK, mostly as a sub, but not a five-minute sub to use up the last few minutes of a game. If you don't rate him, fair enough, I understand why people have written him off, but don't twist the truth

The main reason I wouldn't vote for him here is that Smith wouldn't give him a chance anyway and made that clear, so he may as well be out on loan. Ditto Martin, ditto Bali. So I haven't voted, since there's no way I want Rashica or Placheta anywhere near our club again. 

[kirku 1,332]

7 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

If he can keep Hugill and Idah happy here until the summer I'd keep both. Oppositions hate fresh strikers coming on. If one went out on loan that's Hugill for me. 

 

Hugill should be nowhere near a squad aiming for promotion

[canarycop 205]

Jimmy Neighbour

[kirku 1,332]

1 hour ago, canarybubbles said:

He has a long-term injury which he picked up some time ago, maybe six weeks or two months? Before that, he was doing OK, mostly as a sub, but not a five-minute sub to use up the last few minutes of a game. If you don't rate him, fair enough, I understand why people have written him off, but don't twist the truth. 

Fair enough on the injury point, I didn't realise that, but I was basing my view on the reports of the games where he did play, which were rather scathing.

I hope he comes good - we all should - but it's more hope than expectation at this point

[NeymarSmith 130]

19 hours ago, AJ said:

We've got Springett to come back as well

Missed his appearances last season, even the radio commentary unfortunately. What's the opinion on him Vs Rowe? And compared to what we have? Good enoughr? Better than bali Mumbai???

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

1 hour ago, NeymarSmith said:

Missed his appearances last season, even the radio commentary unfortunately. What's the opinion on him Vs Rowe? And compared to what we have? Good enoughr? Better than bali Mumbai???

I can only judge what I saw of him and he is not knocking in the door for us any time soon based on that. He looked bright and energetic last season, which always goes down well but tends not to give much sway in terms of his technical abilities. For the under 21s this season he looked average in the context of that side so a way to go with see if he has the quality to go to the first team on a consistent basis. Rowe looked far better on the ball from what we saw, injury can be a tricky thing to return from though, so I’d be interested to see how his gradual build back goes. I’m hoping both come good ultimately but it’ll not be a quick progression through the ranks that I think we would all hope for and saw under Aarons et al. Have watch Mumba a few times and he is getting games. Has weaknesses in his game for sure but it getting that all important playing under his belt that you’d hope brings the physical aspects of the game up and then hope that the quality of our coaching staff can build on his quality and reduce the flaws 

Edited November 5, 2022 by SwearyCanary

[Michael Starr 519]

We're playing a striker on the wing. Something went horribly wrong

[Justin time 182]

19 hours ago, OTBC06 said:

I've gone with Tzolis, based on what I would have gone with at the start of the season. Its easy now to say Mumba as he doing so well, but if he stayed, how much would he have developed in the time he would have had on the pitch. I think had Tzolis been kept and used, he would have gained confidence and pushed on well. But alas, we will never know.

He would certainly have never gained confidence under Smith.