Trying to con the ref

[lake district canary 4,531]

Still got players in our team whose first instinct is to go to ground. Not going to mention any names, but there were times last night when players could have done more to stay on their feet and rather than battle through challenges and instead go for a free kick - and often not getting it. 

Refs are not falling for the soft fouls so much these days, so surely the best thing to do is stay on your feet? Losing good positions in an attempt to get a foul is just as bad as giving the ball away cheaply imo. Honesty is the best policy - always has been, always will be.

[Norfolk Mustard 94]

Totally agree! Give the Ref a fair decision to make & it's much more likely to go in our favour...

[Nuff Said 5,089]

I don’t like it, but when *everyone* else does it, aren’t you a fool not to?

 

The last two or three games I’ve allowed myself to be wound up by the opposition constantly questioning the ref’s decisions. Which has been exacerbated by the ref then warning OUR players when they do it. Either allow to or don’t but be consistent FFS.

Other sports manage to crack down on it (although possibly elite rugby is slipping?) so football could if they wanted to. It’s simple enough. Warn the first player to do it, book them the second time. A couple of yellow cards would soon get the message across.

[Positive_Canary 27]

I'm more concerned about the wrestling matches that our defenders get involved with in the opposition penalty area when corners are being contested. Gibson and Hanley seem too stupid to realise that 95% of decisions will go in favour of the defender if the referee spots any legs or arms being wrapped around the opposing player. 

In open play, players should have an instinctive sense of whether they have been fouled or not. Cantwell can draw a foul and I don't have a problem with that, but there were instances last night when players were clearly appealing when no foul had occurred. Even if a decision does go in our favour, I'm convinced that any referees watching these games and re-runs of these incidents, are bound to bear this in mind when they are officiating our games.

 

[Robert N. LiM 4,241]

1 hour ago, Positive_Canary said:

I'm convinced that any referees watching these games and re-runs of these incidents, are bound to bear this in mind when they are officiating our games.

I did wonder whether Todd's general tendency to go to ground easily might have worked against him last night. 

My first reaction to Chair's foul was that Todd had made a meal of it. Largely because I've seen him make a meal of it many times before.

[ron obvious 1,499]

Too many of our players simply aren't strong enough. It's not right, but you have to have the strength/anticipation to ride a foul. I also think you have a better chance of getting a decision if you aren't forever being outmuscled.

[dylanisabaddog 4,867]

When it comes to going to ground, Hanley has turned it into an art form. It's getting beyond a joke and sooner or later a ref isn't going to fall for it. 

[Haus 259]

2 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

I don’t like it, but when *everyone* else does it, aren’t you a fool not to?

 

The last two or three games I’ve allowed myself to be wound up by the opposition constantly questioning the ref’s decisions. Which has been exacerbated by the ref then warning OUR players when they do it. Either allow to or don’t but be consistent FFS.

Other sports manage to crack down on it (although possibly elite rugby is slipping?) so football could if they wanted to. It’s simple enough. Warn the first player to do it, book them the second time. A couple of yellow cards would soon get the message across.

Unless spoken to first, only a captain should be allowed to speak to the ref

[Mike w 46]

53 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I did wonder whether Todd's general tendency to go to ground easily might have worked against him last night. 

My first reaction to Chair's foul was that Todd had made a meal of it. Largely because I've seen him make a meal of it many times before.

100% agree Robert. Todd always tries to fall when he is in trouble with the ball

[Feedthewolf 4,844]

The trouble is that, time and again, you see players being 'too honest' by trying to stay on their feet, losing the ball, and the ref failing to give them the free kick. Sadly, sh*thousery is an epidemic in the modern game; whichever way you set the rules, teams and players will try to find ways to bend or circumvent them to get those all-important 'marginal gains'.

[Branston Pickle 3,635]

10 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

The trouble is that, time and again, you see players being 'too honest' by trying to stay on their feet, losing the ball, and the ref failing to give them the free kick. Sadly, sh*thousery is an epidemic in the modern game; whichever way you set the rules, teams and players will try to find ways to bend or circumvent them to get those all-important 'marginal gains'.

This. It happened several times last night - to be fair to refs, you don’t want the game to be constantly halted for petty things, but there’s a happy medium.

[Nuff Said 5,089]

47 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

When it comes to going to ground, Hanley has turned it into an art form. It's getting beyond a joke and sooner or later a ref isn't going to fall for it. 

I think he’s been working with Max. It’s got to the stage now where I’m surprised when he stays upright if he gets into the opposition box with the ball.

[dylanisabaddog 4,867]

20 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

I think he’s been working with Max. It’s got to the stage now where I’m surprised when he stays upright if he gets into the opposition box with the ball.

Apparently police are still looking for the marksman who shot Max in the penalty area in Reading a couple of years ago 😂

[hogesar 9,618]

47 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

The trouble is that, time and again, you see players being 'too honest' by trying to stay on their feet, losing the ball, and the ref failing to give them the free kick. Sadly, sh*thousery is an epidemic in the modern game; whichever way you set the rules, teams and players will try to find ways to bend or circumvent them to get those all-important 'marginal gains'.

Yep 100%

We would be naive in the extreme to follow the OP's viewpoint, and it would be an instant disadvantage vs every other team that does exactly the same.

I also think the fouls were fouls regardless.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,424]

46 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

The trouble is that, time and again, you see players being 'too honest' by trying to stay on their feet, losing the ball, and the ref failing to give them the free kick. Sadly, sh*thousery is an epidemic in the modern game; whichever way you set the rules, teams and players will try to find ways to bend or circumvent them to get those all-important 'marginal gains'.

This is correct . A product of our refereeing system (another one) . Footballers know that if they go down the odds of getting a free kick are greatly improved than if you do not , for the same incident . Sara stayed up last night and didn’t get the decision . 
 

“Contact” became a thing a few years back . Pundits say “the player had the right to go down”. Football has, once again , created a nonsensical position that simply wouldn’t exist in any other walk of life . 

[lake district canary 4,531]

59 minutes ago, hogesar said:

1 hour ago, Feedthewolf said:

The trouble is that, time and again, you see players being 'too honest' by trying to stay on their feet, losing the ball, and the ref failing to give them the free kick. Sadly, sh*thousery is an epidemic in the modern game; whichever way you set the rules, teams and players will try to find ways to bend or circumvent them to get those all-important 'marginal gains'.

Yep 100%

We would be naive in the extreme to follow the OP's viewpoint, and it would be an instant disadvantage vs every other team that does exactly the same.

I also think the fouls were fouls regardless.

Not naive in the least.  If a team/manager/club are known to have a zero tolerance to cheating (as Brian Clough insisted with his teams) then you are far more likely to get decisions in your favour if you go down when genuinely fouled.

This idea that "everyone else does it so I'm going to do it as well" is just an excuse for lowering standards still further. It would take self-discipline and someone of big character to insist on it at his/her club - but it could be done. 

People talk about focus - but if a player tackled when running with the ball has in his mind "I can go down and try and get a free kick" he is not focussing 100% on getting through the battle, but looking for an excuse to go down. Several "going downs" from a couple of our players last night were just cop outs - and were rightly not given as fouls.

"Stay on your feet" ought to be a mantra. It's what you're supposed to do, after all.

[hogesar 9,618]

26 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Not naive in the least.  If a team/manager/club are known to have a zero tolerance to cheating (as Brian Clough insisted with his teams) then you are far more likely to get decisions in your favour if you go down when genuinely fouled.

This idea that "everyone else does it so I'm going to do it as well" is just an excuse for lowering standards still further. It would take self-discipline and someone of big character to insist on it at his/her club - but it could be done. 

People talk about focus - but if a player tackled when running with the ball has in his mind "I can go down and try and get a free kick" he is not focussing 100% on getting through the battle, but looking for an excuse to go down. Several "going downs" from a couple of our players last night were just cop outs - and were rightly not given as fouls.

"Stay on your feet" ought to be a mantra. It's what you're supposed to do, after all.

We should have had six penalties from fouls on Sargent this season, who is a strong player who doesn't go down easy. It hasn't helped him get those decisions whatsoever.

Any clever player is looking to get the wrong side of the defender leaving the defender in a situation of having to make a choice. You can talk about lowering standard all you like but the first thing that needs to happen is the refereeing standard needs to be improved so that staying on your feet is not an immediate disadvantage.

There's plenty of examples where referees have told players and managers "If he went down, i'd have given it" which tells you all you need to know.

[canarybubbles 1,915]

It's chicken and egg. The refs are cr*p so the players cheat. But the players cheat so it becomes impossible for refs to do their job.

[corbs 147]

Yes, the player I’ve noticed is Sarge, he’s a sturdy guy and appears to want to get on with the game in an old fashioned way, against Watford he was fouled in the box, went down on his knees, looking at the ref , and I immediately thought without the Ronaldo theatrics that’s not going to be given. It’s becoming obvious he does get the decisions, Sheffield the same. 

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,251]

6 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I did wonder whether Todd's general tendency to go to ground easily might have worked against him last night. 

My first reaction to Chair's foul was that Todd had made a meal of it. Largely because I've seen him make a meal of it many times before.

A better touch, and smarter movement, ie run across the defender, The ref has no decision to make, it’s a foul and a red.

The run was too linear, which tbf, probably suggests Cantwells only intention was to keep clear and take the goal scoring opportunity. 

For the record, I think it’s still a foul. 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Creedence Clearwater Couto

[Newtopia 517]

9 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Still got players in our team whose first instinct is to go to ground. Not going to mention any names, but there were times last night when players could have done more to stay on their feet and rather than battle through challenges and instead go for a free kick - and often not getting it. 

Refs are not falling for the soft fouls so much these days, so surely the best thing to do is stay on your feet? Losing good positions in an attempt to get a foul is just as bad as giving the ball away cheaply imo. Honesty is the best policy - always has been, always will be.

I agree with the sentiment.  The game has change hugely from the days where vinny Jones and Roy Keane aimed to hurt players, and on whole now favours skillful players.  Var now means that referees let a lot go, but any genuinely reckless tackle result in red cards 2 mins later. 

Therefore referees let more go around the pitch than a few years ago, but even the gentlest touch when play is transitioning in a break away results in a yellow card.  Therefore unless staying on your feet means the team are in with a good chance of scoring going over is the best option, you retain the ball and get an opposition player booked, cynical but sensible.  Btw I would rather they stayed on their feet.

[Well b back 3,190]

Had it have been anyone other than Cantwell last night you would have been screaming red card. 

[Heading South 24]

9 hours ago, Positive_Canary said:

I'm more concerned about the wrestling matches that our defenders get involved with in the opposition penalty area when corners are being contested. Gibson and Hanley seem too stupid to realise that 95% of decisions will go in favour of the defender if the referee spots any legs or arms being wrapped around the opposing player. 

In open play, players should have an instinctive sense of whether they have been fouled or not. Cantwell can draw a foul and I don't have a problem with that, but there were instances last night when players were clearly appealing when no foul had occurred. Even if a decision does go in our favour, I'm convinced that any referees watching these games and re-runs of these incidents, are bound to bear this in mind when they are officiating our games.

 

Refs should enter the dressing rooms and tell both sets of players and managers , if players hold each other round the waist when facing a free kick or corner , they will automatically get booked , install it in their minds before they start the game , if they don’t heed the warning then their is no complaints , I’m sure it will stop this type of thing happening.

[Pugin 601]

10 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Still got players in our team whose first instinct is to go to ground. Not going to mention any names, but there were times last night when players could have done more to stay on their feet and rather than battle through challenges and instead go for a free kick - and often not getting it. 

Refs are not falling for the soft fouls so much these days, so surely the best thing to do is stay on your feet? Losing good positions in an attempt to get a foul is just as bad as giving the ball away cheaply imo. Honesty is the best policy - always has been, always will be.

Must be talking about Grant Hanley, the only City player who has actually perfected the art of the dive.

[Heading South 24]

2 minutes ago, Pugin said:

Must be talking about Grant Hanley, the only City player who has actually perfected the art of the dive.

Todd is a serial con artist , slightest touch and he falls , not a good look .

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

The best cure for diving/simulation (which is, IMO, the most cancerous issue on the pitch) is to make penalties less strict as I think the balance has swung too far the other way. I've said on here a few times that we should abolish the penalty kick as you're basically giving a team a free shot at goal from 12 yards for what can often be an accident or a very minor foul, which strikes me as hugely disproportionate. To be honest, I'm not averse to scrapping the straight red card for "professional fouls" either. If someone's off the pitch, then it should be something bad, and not something that can almost be engineered with a few rolls after impact.

I'd actually say referees need to pile into dissent more and let more go in terms of contact.  

Edited November 3, 2022 by TheGunnShow