Let's be rational...

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

16 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Again, we have had spells of nice football this season. Last week's draw with Sheffield was great until Hayden ran out of puff from lack of match-fitness. That's what needs nurturing and that needs time. 

Great? In that we'd clung on. Whoopee do!!. We were playing SU ffs not Man effing City ( yep, I know we beat them , a few years ago now but try denying that 9 times out of ten, we won't). It honestly looked like a park the Bus job to me.....  Not good enough in this division.  Or , if that was the only way DS felt he could get a result , then it's a sad indictment of his years work here. 

[Clint 221]

There’s been a valid point made on here that we actually looked a decent team in the Prem under Smith for a couple of games whilst playing 4-4-2.

The fact that this is the only time under Smith that we have looked decent makes it even more astonishing that he refuses to budge from his flawed 4-3-3 system.

He could potentially have two of the best strikers in the league playing in tandem up top but steadfastly refuses to do so. It would generally appear to suit us as a team and make us a much more solid unit.

Cam anyone please explain this to me? 
 

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

1 hour ago, wcorkcanary said:

Great? In that we'd clung on. Whoopee do!!. We were playing SU ffs not Man effing City ( yep, I know we beat them , a few years ago now but try denying that 9 times out of ten, we won't). It honestly looked like a park the Bus job to me.....  Not good enough in this division.  Or , if that was the only way DS felt he could get a result , then it's a sad indictment of his years work here. 

Moving the goalpost agains? We've been talking about 'great' being entertaining all the while the results were good; now great has gone back to being purely whether we won or not.

Calling it a year of team-building is unreasonable; the Premier League with an inherited squad is trying to firefight, not build. And Sheffield United is very much a team of our calibre that we were facing with only one decent holding midfielder only just back from injury. The game literally turned on Hayden petering out. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Nexus_Canary 1,016]

56 minutes ago, Clint said:

There’s been a valid point made on here that we actually looked a decent team in the Prem under Smith for a couple of games whilst playing 4-4-2.

The fact that this is the only time under Smith that we have looked decent makes it even more astonishing that he refuses to budge from his flawed 4-3-3 system.

He could potentially have two of the best strikers in the league playing in tandem up top but steadfastly refuses to do so. It would generally appear to suit us as a team and make us a much more solid unit.

Cam anyone please explain this to me? 
 

 

Great post.

[canarycop 206]

10 minutes ago, Nexus_Canary said:

Great post.

When Idah and Pukki played together we did indeed look good at time playing 442.  The difference was we had wingers. Fair enough they didn't pull up any trees.....Rashica, Rowe etc al but at least they were natural wingers who gave us width. That alone stretched the play. At the moment we only have Onel who was deemed that good he was sent on loan. The lack of wide men stifles us in my opinion and wide men with pace

[kenfoggo 247]

It is bewildering how anyone can question the brilliance of Dean Smith’s playing formation. The man is a tactical genius, do to forget the way he engineered a relegation from the Premiership and then home defeats against Wigan, Preston, Luton , Birmingham. It is just not fair to constantly criticise the man who has brought such a great identity to the Club and an enviable , effective attacking style. Not only that he has generated such a wonderful rapport with the fans and really brought the fans closer to the Club. Stop the constant deriding and belittling this great man’s achievements. We are extremely fortunate to have such a giant at our little Club.

[Capt. Pants 4,234]

28 minutes ago, canarycop said:

When Idah and Pukki played together we did indeed look good at time playing 442.  The difference was we had wingers. Fair enough they didn't pull up any trees.....Rashica, Rowe etc al but at least they were natural wingers who gave us width. That alone stretched the play. At the moment we only have Onel who was deemed that good he was sent on loan. The lack of wide men stifles us in my opinion and wide men with pace

Agreed. This whole lack of wide players thing is doing my nut quite honestly.

Why did we allow Placheta, Tzolis and Rashica all to leave and not replace them, particularly as Rowe was long term injured at the point Milo left?

Sargent is not the answer out wide, nor is Cantwell either.

 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Moving the goalpost agains? We've been talking about 'great' being entertaining all the while the results were good; now great has gone back to being purely whether we won or not.

Calling it a year of team-building is unreasonable; the Premier League with an inherited squad is trying to firefight, not build. And Sheffield United is very much a team of our calibre that we were facing with only one decent holding midfielder only just back from injury. The game literally turned on Hayden petering out. 

No goalposts moved Birdyo , just don't agree with YOUR appraisal of it being ' great'...it wasn't . We played as if we were up against a top class side , not a rival in our own league.

The more you invent " what's been decided"....the more I will challenge it .

You say ' a year if team building".... what I actually said was .... ' his years work '....much more broad than just ' team building' .  Don't misquote me, it renders your ahyesbuttery more laughable than It already is. 

Did you not read my analogy of Tide , sand and sinking. ... That's what is going on at City right now chap. I admire your loyalty but not your judgement.

 

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

1 hour ago, kenfoggo said:

It is bewildering how anyone can question the brilliance of Dean Smith’s playing formation. The man is a tactical genius, do to forget the way he engineered a relegation from the Premiership and then home defeats against Wigan, Preston, Luton , Birmingham. It is just not fair to constantly criticise the man who has brought such a great identity to the Club and an enviable , effective attacking style. Not only that he has generated such a wonderful rapport with the fans and really brought the fans closer to the Club. Stop the constant deriding and belittling this great man’s achievements. We are extremely fortunate to have such a giant at our little Club.

He didn't engineer a relegation; he was unable to engineer a make-do-and-mend survival with a squad engineered in consultation with the previous manager that was already on target for a spectacular relegation at the quarter of the season mark. 

In terms of a rebuild a new identity, he has had pre-season this year and the games we've had so far this season. That's not nearly enough time to reasonably expect everything to look amazing. 

Fans like you don't want any rapport with him. There's no point trying to win over people who don't want to be won over. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

4 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

No goalposts moved Birdyo , just don't agree with YOUR appraisal of it being ' great'...it wasn't . We played as if we were up against a top class side , not a rival in our own league.

The more you invent " what's been decided"....the more I will challenge it .

You say ' a year if team building".... what I actually said was .... ' his years work '....much more broad than just ' team building' .  Don't misquote me, it renders your ahyesbuttery more laughable than It already is. 

Did you not read my analogy of Tide , sand and sinking. ... That's what is going on at City right now chap. I admire your loyalty but not your judgement.

 

 

Yes, they absolutely have been moved. While we were winning, people were calling play 'crap' on whether they were 'entertained'. 

Ultimately, all these arguments against are a big mish mash of a coalition of the disaffected. 

My basic belief that Smith can work is based on very simple grounds: 3 management jobs elsewhere over more than 10 years where he is very well-respected, including at Aston Villa. Management is about processes, and if you know how to run the processes right, which on past track record he clearly does, then whatever's not right is not going to be fixed by changing manager. What will fix it is identifying what is the problem and changing it. With a new manager, you have someone else starting from scratch in that process. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

There's no point trying to win over people who don't want to be won over. 

And there's no point trying to persuade those who can't see what's going on in front of their eyes. 

 

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

2 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

And there's no point trying to persuade those who can't see what's going on in front of their eyes. 

 

 

Well you have your opinion, but it doesn't make it right. 

And, as I've said before, those who were complaining about 'crap' football when we were winning and stats were good have no business taking about rationality just because it now happens to suit them. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Yes, they absolutely have been moved. While we were winning, people were calling play 'crap' on whether they were 'entertained'. 

Ultimately, all these arguments against are a big mish mash of a coalition of the disaffected. 

My basic belief that Smith can work is based on very simple grounds: 3 management jobs elsewhere over more than 10 years where he is very well-respected, including at Aston Villa. Management is about processes, and if you know how to run the processes right, which on past track record he clearly does, then whatever's not right is not going to be fixed by changing manager. 

You have invented your own paramaters  for discussion, if you cannot accept that opinions change as do  circumstances, then I'm afraid you are not prepared for adult life  . You can argue the semantics of a long moot point all you like, but toyt will get left behind.... Just like Ciry are.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

1 minute ago, wcorkcanary said:

You have invented your own paramaters  for discussion, if you cannot accept that opinions change as do  circumstances, then I'm afraid you are not prepared for adult life  . You can argue the semantics of a long moot point all you like, but toyt will get left behind.... Just like Ciry are.

 

No, the parameters for discussion are constantly being changed by the critics. When results and stats were good, the parameters was their personal subjective idea of what's  'entertainment', now we have had some bad results, the parameters of the critics have moved back to results. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Well you have your opinion, but it doesn't make it right. 

Same same Birdyo, you are the one telling people they are wrong for saying what's going on is wrong, can you seriously argue that it's right?fcuk me🤦‍♂️

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

No, the parameters for discussion are constantly being changed by the critics. When results and stats were good, the parameters were 'entertainment', now we have had some bad results, the parameters of the critics have moved back to results. 

The bit you are missing is that  now it's results AND performances that are poor, so keep up.

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by wcorkcanary

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

9 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Same same Birdyo, you are the one telling people they are wrong for saying what's going on is wrong, can you seriously argue that it's right?fcuk me🤦‍♂️

What I argue is what I believe. It's for others to decide whether they agree with it or not. 

I do have a lot of evidence from our history though that managerial change doesn't result in magic turnarounds, while there's plenty of evidence that time, patience, thought and perseverance does. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

7 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

The bit you are missing us that  now it's results AND performances that are poor, so keep up.

No. Poor is a subjective thing and I don't agree with you on that. As for results, this is a poor run and I wouldn't have any complaints if the trigger was pulled but equally I still think it's worth persevering, because the worst case scenario is we don't get immediate promotion back to the Premier League, which still leaves us another season of parachute money to go again.

Best case scenario is we get back to the form we had before this run and head back into automatic promotion territory. 

And seriously, don't come along with any crap that we're going to be relegated to league 1, because that's absurd. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Canaries north 151]

On 26/10/2022 at 00:06, Branston Pickle said:

No, we aren’t, but we have been uniquely unlucky in that we have had to play 6 different players at left back. Surely you’ll admit that’s unusual.  

All I’m saying is that it could be a contributing factor to poor performance - but some don’t even appear to think we have anyone out. 

 

I believe Watford were playing a midfielder at right back as they have the same problem but with right backs. Their best midfielder did play against us but is now out for 2 months and only have 2 fit centre backs. They have also had Pedro out for most of the season who is a player they turned down £30 million for. Just some context. We all have injured players, some teams worse than others and this season more than normal. Our problem in my eyes is we only signed one DM. He hadn't played for a year. Left back is not or fault DM is. 

[hogesar 9,667]

13 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

He didn't engineer a relegation; he was unable to engineer a make-do-and-mend survival with a squad engineered in consultation with the previous manager that was already on target for a spectacular relegation at the quarter of the season mark. 

In terms of a rebuild a new identity, he has had pre-season this year and the games we've had so far this season. That's not nearly enough time to reasonably expect everything to look amazing. 

Fans like you don't want any rapport with him. There's no point trying to win over people who don't want to be won over. 

I don't disagree but we looked so far behind Burnley who lost more of their players than we did, their proven Premier League players, and replaced them without significant outlay. Kompany has had less time with the side and has a far more identifiable playing style and he has performed a bigger transformation than Smith has had to. 

My other problem is the last 4 games we've had less about us than previous games. Equally, the one thing Smith is supposed to be instilling is a high press and high counter-press and even this far into the season we're only seeing it for 10 minute spells.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

No. Poor is a subjective thing and I don't agree with you on that. As for results, this is a poor run and I wouldn't have any complaints if the trigger was pulled but equally I still think it's worth persevering, because the worst case scenario is we don't get immediate promotion back to the Premier League, which still leaves us another season of parachute money to go again. And seriously, don't come along with any crap that we're going to be relegated to league 1, because that's absurd. 

 Careful, you are starting to project now, I have not considered or mentioned relegation, you are  misjudging my opinions...please do not try to be too clever, you will trip yourself up.  He who shouts the most is not necessarily the one who is right, just the shoutiest. 🤷

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

11 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I don't disagree but we looked so far behind Burnley who lost more of their players than we did, their proven Premier League players, and replaced them without significant outlay. Kompany has had less time with the side and has a far more identifiable playing style and he has performed a bigger transformation than Smith has had to. 

My other problem is the last 4 games we've had less about us than previous games. Equally, the one thing Smith is supposed to be instilling is a high press and high counter-press and even this far into the season we're only seeing it for 10 minute spells.

And yet according to some it's poor all of the time! Plenty of inconsistency was there in Farke's first season as well, but more time was given and it paid off. 

Honestly, for me I'm at the point I was with Farke when he was sacked that there's enough discontent that it's a shrug your shoulders if it happens, but at rock bottom, as always, managerial change through a season is a big leap into the unknown where it's unlikely that you'll be better off, while there's a risk you'll be a lot worse off. 

Managerial change is something for when you have nothing to lose, not when you have things you can gain. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

3 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

 Careful, you are starting to project now, I have not considered or mentioned relegation, you are  misjudging my opinions...please do not try to be too clever, you will trip yourself up.  He who shouts the most is not necessarily the one who is right, just the shoutiest. 🤷

It has been mentioned by others. You lose track of who has said what, and all these pointless arguments start merging into one. 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It has been mentioned by others. You lose track of who has said what, and all these pointless arguments start merging into one. 

Nope, YOU lose track , so busy hopping from car to car pecking at wing mirrors. I think you meant " one loses track" or,in fact the more accurate " I lost track" would be more appropriate . 

Go Birdyo !!!! 😂😇👌

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

Just now, wcorkcanary said:

Nope, YOU lose track , so busy hopping from car to car pecking at wing mirrors. I think you meant " one loses track" or,in fact the more accurate " I lost track" would be more appropriate . 

Go Birdyo !!!! 😂😇👌

Okay, whatever. 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

11 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

where it's unlikely that you'll be better off, while there's a risk you'll be a lot worse off

Do you have factual evidence of this, genuinely curious. Would love to see this point settled once and for all, your claim....prove it and I will accept it. It's as daft as Tillo claiming " anyone would be better" ...just slightly better worded, but arguing the opposite.

Edited October 27, 2022 by wcorkcanary

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

Just now, wcorkcanary said:

Do you have factual evidence of this, genuinely curious. Would love to see this point settled once and for all, your claim....prove it and I will accept it.

It has been my personal opinion for a long time, but there are studies that back it up. It's a lottery, and mid-season change will always be a case of who happens to be available and willing to replace whoever you get rid of. 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10645-016-9277-0#:~:text=We find that some managerial,we illustrate through case-studies.

 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

19 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Okay, whatever. 

Yes, indeed 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

15 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It has been my personal opinion for a long time, but there are studies that back it up. It's a lottery, and mid-season change will always be a case of who happens to be available and willing to replace whoever you get rid of. 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10645-016-9277-0#:~:text=We find that some managerial,we illustrate through case-studies.

 

Indeed again, I never said it wasn't a risk or was a guaranteed fix, but at the moment I see little or no improvement. I am prepared for the Club to take a risk at this point, as safe hands smithy ain't doin it for me....and I'm one of the less vociferous outers mate. 

[hogesar 9,667]

35 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

And yet according to some it's poor all of the time! Plenty of inconsistency was there in Farke's first season as well, but more time was given and it paid off. 

Honestly, for me I'm at the point I was with Farke when he was sacked that there's enough discontent that it's a shrug your shoulders if it happens, but at rock bottom, as always, managerial change through a season is a big leap into the unknown where it's unlikely that you'll be better off, while there's a risk you'll be a lot worse off. 

Managerial change is something for when you have nothing to lose, not when you have things you can gain. 

Oh we've definitely have some good periods and the winning run wasn't all poor football, there were some really good team goals scored in those games. 

The question of course is, do you put that down to Smith tactically or just the players being superior? I assumed a bit of both but with each game it appears tactically we're not seeing any benefit and the goals we're scoring lately are down to the pure quality of, for example, Teemu.

If we win convincingly against Stoke then he should get a reprieve but a poor performance and a draw / loss should really be the end.