Let's be rational...

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

That's exactly what I said at the time, but nobody wanted to hear it. 

I would not of begrudged Farke more time. I do however begrudge smith more time purely on how turgid the football is, irrespective of results I’ve been bored all season. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

2 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

I would not of begrudged Farke more time. I do however begrudge smith more time purely on how turgid the football is, irrespective of results I’ve been bored all season. 

Again, we have had spells of nice football this season. Last week's draw with Sheffield was great until Hayden ran out of puff from lack of match-fitness. That's what needs nurturing and that needs time. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[NeymarSmith 130]

4 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

Maybe try reading what I say, rather than what you think I’m saying next time? 

I mean alot of what you are saying is how unlucky we are with injuries so, it's not great substance 

Let's try a different tact. What's your reasons to not change manager 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

2 minutes ago, NeymarSmith said:

I mean alot of what you are saying is how unlucky we are with injuries so, it's not great substance 

Let's try a different tact. What's your reasons to not change manager 

That's easy: 

• You have absolutely no idea who you'll get
• You have absolutely no idea how they'll get on with the squad (they all seem on board with Smith)
• You have absolutely no idea whether you've just thrown out something that might have worked if you'd seen it through. 
• Early termination of contract cost. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[RugbyCanary 94]

It all seems hard work. For everyone! Smith seems to have hit his ceiling. The owners are (imo) not rich enough for their vision, Webber is at the end here I believe. Playing awful football with no let up. 

Rationally, if I wasn't very good at my job I would be let go. Why oh why is football held on a completely different plane.........

[glory.win or die. 270]

13 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

Blah blah blah.

We have an above average number of injuries, and a very above average in defence (left backs).  That is fact, not conjecture.  We have had 10 players or more (who would be first team or played in the PL last season) out for at least 5 fixtures this season.  That is unusual.

The fact you won’t or can’t see it despite proof is very sad.

In itself it doesn’t excuse poor performances, but can be a contributing factor.
 

We have had alot of injuries. We also have one of the biggest squads to cope with it. Our back up players Hernandez,macullum,sinani,hugill,gibso etc have good champs experience, 

Our biggest issue is that Sara and Nunez were clearly purchased as starters, but they are more suited to Farkeball than Smith.

Smith needs hard running,fast, experienced players. Nunez and Sara have, what 20 games between them in England? Burnleys 2 Central midfielders have 600-700 between them 

[Capt. Pants 4,229]

1 hour ago, kenfoggo said:

Alex Neil is coming to Carrow Road on Saturday with his Stoke City side. He will be anxious to do a number on his old club and will have plenty of evidence from the last games about how to achieve that win. I may advance the suggestion that if Dean Smith cannot manage a win against Stoke City at home then his number is well and truly up. The balance of doubt will have shifted into the “must get rid “ area.

Stoke are only 2 pts off the relegation zone so he'll be anxious for points full stop. 

NCFC are 7pts off the top and 8pts from the relegation zone. A couple more losses in quick succession and results from other games going against us, then the season starts to have a different perspective!

Beating Stoke gives Smith until the next game but he looks a dead duck to me.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,431]

6 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Aston Villa are a direct competitor to us? You're kidding me.

They may have been when Smith went there, but they were way beyond us by the point he left; not many 7-2 demolitions of Liverpool in our recent history.

They were when they sacked him. Bottom 6 . End of . 

[Captain Holt 522]

See, this is the difference between someone who stuck to one opinion and actually adapts it to fit the situation as he sees fit, and is not too proud to do so (Hogesar) and one who has chosen his hill and will bloody well die on it (LittleYellowBirdie).

[Feedthewolf 4,846]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

1)Simply making the point about patience in the absence of immediate transformations. 

2)Is taking over an inherited squad that's massively failing in the Premier League a realistic environment for building a new identity? Farke had a clear style and identity established at Championship level that was rarely evident in the face of Premier League opposition. 

3)Again, it's not really a year of squad building; it's more like 3 or 4 months, that did see good results and good stats for a fair while. 

4)I don't think it is. I've always believed that excessive importance is placed on the importance of the manager as a personality, which is a consequence of the fact that it's the only significant variable club's can change in a season. personally, I'd like to see transfer windows for managers to put an end to this ridiculous managerial merry-go-round obsession that pervades football. 

But my maint point about alluding to Klopp is that Smith has been actively rubbished by many on here for his interest in his collegiate approach and interest in stats, which are approaches that are actually well-established. 

Smith succeeded at every club he has been at. It's too easy to say 'it's not working here' and flail around. I'm actually interested in why it's not doing so well and how it might turn around, because I don't believe there's anything wrong with him as a manager. 

I think our views are too disparate for me to invest much more time in this conversation.

I do agree that, in general, football pulls the plug far too readily on managers. I also have no problem with a statistical approach; indeed, I remember admiring the football Smith got Brentford playing under the auspices of Matthew Benham's 'Moneyball' philosophy.

I would hope we can all agree that this season's results and performances taken en masse have not been good enough. At this point it's just a case of whether we believe he's capable of arresting the slide. You clearly do believe he is capable, and I don't. I'm happy to agree to differ on that score.

[Branston Pickle 3,657]

58 minutes ago, NeymarSmith said:

I mean alot of what you are saying is how unlucky we are with injuries so, it's not great substance 

Let's try a different tact. What's your reasons to not change manager 

This is the thing - I haven’t said we shouldn’t change manager and have long said I don’t really care who it is.  All I’ve said is that long injury list can be unhelpful - but it seems most people here think we don’t even have one.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Again, we have had spells of nice football this season. Last week's draw with Sheffield was great until Hayden ran out of puff from lack of match-fitness. That's what needs nurturing and that needs time. 

See I just didn’t see it against Sheffield, the goals we scored were from their errors more than our creativity. I saw more of the same side ways and backwards passing followed by a lump up the pitch. There’s nothing inherently wrong with the direct approach at the right time but there is something wrong with it for me when you’re playing Pukki up top on his own. (Even if he did score from one of those long balls). I saw a bit of huff and puff first half and then our own house got blown down in the second. 

[hogesar 9,658]

3 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

This is the thing - I haven’t said we shouldn’t change manager and have long said I don’t really care who it is.  All I’ve said is that long injury list can be unhelpful - but it seems most people here think we don’t even have one.

It's been a weird one since Smith came in. It's been awfully difficult to have a sensible conversation on Smith with a lot of posters. Not all, by the way. I don't agree with everything @Petriix says but his reasonings are sound, they're put across without being personal about Smith and some of the points are pretty inarguable!

Considering I didn't want Farke sacked, considering I didn't particularly want Smith in when he first joined, i've been called all sorts of bizarre things for being up for giving him a bit of time and for disputing some of the rubbish posted about him which were, and still are, lies and mistruths. The fact he only supports playing typical english long-ball was the first of several.

That has created a bit of a weird situation where some will double-down on their attack and some on their defence of Smith, and it's made some of the arguments make little sense on both sides.

If Smith is let go either before or after Stoke he can certainly look back at the injury list as a contributory factor.

[Segura 84]

A few weeks ago on a similar thread (after beating Birmingham I think) I said I was happy to give Deano more time to implement a style and kick on.

A few weeks later and having just made Burnley look like Real Madrid, I think it's fair to say, his time may now be nearing an end.

However, I'm still not sure that sacking him will cure our ills...

I'm starting to think that some of our problems run deeper than just the manager, eg jaded, ageing players, new signings who need time to settle and some youngsters who need to be developed. Webber may also be posing a pickle, but that's another matter.

Sure a new manager may give a temporary lift, but with our limited resources we can't buy our way out of trouble, which is why I assume despite a major re-vamp being needed this summer, we just couldn't afford to do so. Basically, I'm not sure much would change.

Under Farke it's true, we had an identity and fixed style, which I loved watching at Champs level. In the Prem this was brutally exposed, so in fairness to Smith, I think it's fully understandable as to why he wants us to play differently. But I accept this just isn't working right now and we look a passive, disjointed and dispirited side.

The unusual nature of this season, may work in our favour in that the World Cup break presents an ideal opportunity for a reset and to get players fit. It may also present us with an opportunity to do what now appears inevitable, but personally I would give it the next two games.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

3 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

If ever there was more proof that this is really a bizarre personality vendetta rather than any real interests in the football club, it's that comment. 

I’m consistent on this with “should we sack the manager” debates. Once it’s clear a change is needed I don’t subscribe to the  “three games to save his job” line or “7 points from 9” or he should go. 

perhaps if we suddenly start playing like world beaters then it changes things a bit but an unconvincing win over Stoke at home will not suddenly change my mind and I think leaving him in charge til the World Cup just wasted potentially winnable fixtures. Despite how things have gone a new coach will still inherit a squad in a position from where they can challenge for top two. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

1 hour ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

See I just didn’t see it against Sheffield, the goals we scored were from their errors more than our creativity. I saw more of the same side ways and backwards passing followed by a lump up the pitch. There’s nothing inherently wrong with the direct approach at the right time but there is something wrong with it for me when you’re playing Pukki up top on his own. (Even if he did score from one of those long balls). I saw a bit of huff and puff first half and then our own house got blown down in the second. 

Well, I guess you are just reduced to subjective personal opinion with that sort of thing. 

[nutty nigel 7,532]

3 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I’m consistent on this with “should we sack the manager” debates. Once it’s clear a change is needed I don’t subscribe to the  “three games to save his job” line or “7 points from 9” or he should go. 

perhaps if we suddenly start playing like world beaters then it changes things a bit but an unconvincing win over Stoke at home will not suddenly change my mind and I think leaving him in charge til the World Cup just wasted potentially winnable fixtures. Despite how things have gone a new coach will still inherit a squad in a position from where they can challenge for top two. 

The only indication we can take from Webber's record here is that there's no " x games to save his job". Farke went after a win.

[baldy09 156]

15 hours ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

Won't Somebody PLEASE think of the injuries 

 

😩😩😩

 

 

I thought of them and sent a get well card😙

[repman 635]

I'm going to summarise most of my thoughts over the last year from when we sacked Farke until now.

• The Farke sacking was one I generally supported, the talk and confidence before the season started suggested that we were expecting to stay up. We were told there would be a change in style in order to help us best compete in the PL. Over those first 10 games under Farke we had both lost the traditional farkeball style while not showing any newfound defensive stability.
• The appointment of Smith was a strange one initially, and definitely not my first choice. However, you could point to how Villa improved post lockdown in 19/20 which ultimately led to their survival as the reason why Webber chose him.
• Early in Smith's tenure we picked up some results and in my opinion looked a lot more like a PL side than we had done under Farke.
• The covid outbreak in the squad led to us playing with a stupidly weak side in some games, why we didn't get those games postponed I will never know, despite that the 442 with Idah/Pukki up top showed promise and got us some big wins.
• Idah's injury, plus more to others, meant that we were trying to play catch up without our strongest side. Relegation was all but inevitable but there were still some decent performances as the season rolled on.
• During the summer I commented that Webber of 2017 would've sacked Smith and ripped everything up to start again, however his commitment to the club was in question at this time and the signing of Hayden (a Smith signing) made it look like he wasn't even leading the recruitment anymore. However, Sara and Nunez both were more typically him and a sign he was still getting to work.
• Early performances this season were uninspiring but I felt like we were getting the better of most games, we were allowing teams very little and creating little ourselves, but more than the opposition. The big caveat here was that the quality of the sides we had come against was in question. October was touted as the month where we would find out where we really were.
• As we approach the end of the month it's clear this team is probably a mid table outfit at best, players looking worse each game as confidence has dropped.
• I had hoped we would make it to the World Cup under Smith in a somewhat respectable position. He could be replaced and a new manager would have time to work with the team without a hectic schedule requiring results. We are beyond that point now and any results in the next few games should not cover that up.

The fact Smith is still employed after last night leads me to conclude that either he is going to be sacked during the break, or he is going to be given that time to remedy the problems. If it's the former then ok, though I think most fans would even accept sacking him now and going with someone in the interim until the World Cup if only to lift the morale of the fanbase. If Webber is still of the opinion that Dean Smith is the man to lead the team forward and push back towards the PL, then he too needs to come under scrutiny and be questioned over whether he is the right man to lead the club forward. 

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,296]

28 minutes ago, repman said:

I'm going to summarise most of my thoughts over the last year from when we sacked Farke until now.

• The Farke sacking was one I generally supported, the talk and confidence before the season started suggested that we were expecting to stay up. We were told there would be a change in style in order to help us best compete in the PL. Over those first 10 games under Farke we had both lost the traditional farkeball style while not showing any newfound defensive stability.
• The appointment of Smith was a strange one initially, and definitely not my first choice. However, you could point to how Villa improved post lockdown in 19/20 which ultimately led to their survival as the reason why Webber chose him.
• Early in Smith's tenure we picked up some results and in my opinion looked a lot more like a PL side than we had done under Farke.
• The covid outbreak in the squad led to us playing with a stupidly weak side in some games, why we didn't get those games postponed I will never know, despite that the 442 with Idah/Pukki up top showed promise and got us some big wins.
• Idah's injury, plus more to others, meant that we were trying to play catch up without our strongest side. Relegation was all but inevitable but there were still some decent performances as the season rolled on.
• During the summer I commented that Webber of 2017 would've sacked Smith and ripped everything up to start again, however his commitment to the club was in question at this time and the signing of Hayden (a Smith signing) made it look like he wasn't even leading the recruitment anymore. However, Sara and Nunez both were more typically him and a sign he was still getting to work.
• Early performances this season were uninspiring but I felt like we were getting the better of most games, we were allowing teams very little and creating little ourselves, but more than the opposition. The big caveat here was that the quality of the sides we had come against was in question. October was touted as the month where we would find out where we really were.
• As we approach the end of the month it's clear this team is probably a mid table outfit at best, players looking worse each game as confidence has dropped.
• I had hoped we would make it to the World Cup under Smith in a somewhat respectable position. He could be replaced and a new manager would have time to work with the team without a hectic schedule requiring results. We are beyond that point now and any results in the next few games should not cover that up.

The fact Smith is still employed after last night leads me to conclude that either he is going to be sacked during the break, or he is going to be given that time to remedy the problems. If it's the former then ok, though I think most fans would even accept sacking him now and going with someone in the interim until the World Cup if only to lift the morale of the fanbase. If Webber is still of the opinion that Dean Smith is the man to lead the team forward and push back towards the PL, then he too needs to come under scrutiny and be questioned over whether he is the right man to lead the club forward. 

Great post. 

I'll answer the bit in bold right now.... 

He is absolutely not the right man to lead it forward 

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,431]

1 hour ago, repman said:

I'm going to summarise most of my thoughts over the last year from when we sacked Farke until now.

• The Farke sacking was one I generally supported, the talk and confidence before the season started suggested that we were expecting to stay up. We were told there would be a change in style in order to help us best compete in the PL. Over those first 10 games under Farke we had both lost the traditional farkeball style while not showing any newfound defensive stability.
• The appointment of Smith was a strange one initially, and definitely not my first choice. However, you could point to how Villa improved post lockdown in 19/20 which ultimately led to their survival as the reason why Webber chose him.
• Early in Smith's tenure we picked up some results and in my opinion looked a lot more like a PL side than we had done under Farke.
• The covid outbreak in the squad led to us playing with a stupidly weak side in some games, why we didn't get those games postponed I will never know, despite that the 442 with Idah/Pukki up top showed promise and got us some big wins.
• Idah's injury, plus more to others, meant that we were trying to play catch up without our strongest side. Relegation was all but inevitable but there were still some decent performances as the season rolled on.
• During the summer I commented that Webber of 2017 would've sacked Smith and ripped everything up to start again, however his commitment to the club was in question at this time and the signing of Hayden (a Smith signing) made it look like he wasn't even leading the recruitment anymore. However, Sara and Nunez both were more typically him and a sign he was still getting to work.
• Early performances this season were uninspiring but I felt like we were getting the better of most games, we were allowing teams very little and creating little ourselves, but more than the opposition. The big caveat here was that the quality of the sides we had come against was in question. October was touted as the month where we would find out where we really were.
• As we approach the end of the month it's clear this team is probably a mid table outfit at best, players looking worse each game as confidence has dropped.
• I had hoped we would make it to the World Cup under Smith in a somewhat respectable position. He could be replaced and a new manager would have time to work with the team without a hectic schedule requiring results. We are beyond that point now and any results in the next few games should not cover that up.

The fact Smith is still employed after last night leads me to conclude that either he is going to be sacked during the break, or he is going to be given that time to remedy the problems. If it's the former then ok, though I think most fans would even accept sacking him now and going with someone in the interim until the World Cup if only to lift the morale of the fanbase. If Webber is still of the opinion that Dean Smith is the man to lead the team forward and push back towards the PL, then he too needs to come under scrutiny and be questioned over whether he is the right man to lead the club forward. 

A reasoned post. 
 

Over the years it seems to become clear that a manager is going . I said that if we didn’t beat Luton Sheff Utd or Burnley he would be toast and I can’t see smith surviving . The World Cup gives a natural break . I can see Shakey being placed in charge beforehand unless Webber has someone lined up. 

The stars haven’t aligned for Smith at NCFC. Hard to be precise but too many fans in the pubs and in the ground say the same thing .There is no connection between fans and Smith and therefore no confidence . Webber has only added to the lack of connection . The 90% and recent Chelsea issue has been hopeless. 

I have no idea if this squad is good enough. But I do think the club has to act whilst we have any form of financial advantage (parachute) . Another Farke based miracle without parachute money seems highly unlikely. 

[Carn 71]

Sad to say but I haven't even been keeping up with scores lately. We've been abject crap almost every game this season, picked up lucky results to paper over the cracks but now its catching up fast. I have no interest in the club while Dean Smith is in charge. He's taken us backwards with most of the same squad that walked the championship 2 years ago.

[Robert N. LiM 4,341]

18 hours ago, Petriix said:

There's been no tangible progress. Just a dogmatic adherence to the flawed 4-3-3 despite its obvious shortcomings. Repeatedly trying the same thing and getting the same results.

So what has Smith brought to the club? How have we progressed?

I haven't read the whole thread because it seems to have descended into a series of slanging matches, but I just wanted to say that this is an excellent OP and I think you sum up the situation perfectly.

I think the Farke section could be argued both ways, but the summary of Smith's tenure seems undeniable to me. It's not so much about results, it's about the lack of progress, both in the team and in individuals. I can't think of any player who's improved on Smith's watch and I can think of plenty who have gone backwards.

I don't like calling for people to be sacked, especially someone like Smith who seems a decent bloke. But it's not working, is it? Best for both parties if they go their separate ways.

 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Well, I guess you are just reduced to subjective personal opinion with that sort of thing. 

Some philosophy would say that is all life is on everything 🤷‍♂️

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

I gave him what I felt was adequate time and publicly supported him on the premise that he had not had enough of a chance with his plans to be implemented fully enough. The early results left me feeling unimpressed with style but tolerant of the result itself, enough to keep backing him and put us in a string position for promotion. The patience though has run out, his latest results show how little we have changed but also show how much this will now affect our prospects. Sooner or later even LYB will get on board, I partly respect their stoicism but I think everyone’s pain threshold differs, but it’s the pain on both me and the club. I’m less willing to see Smith’s philosophy inflict pain on NCFC for any longer than I have already and I also yearn to like watching games again. 

I hope we beat Stoke. I hope it’s playing amazing football. It won’t be of course, which we ALL know. Even Branston and LYB. But if we continue to scrape whatever result week in and out then pulling the trigger is needed. I’m not actually willing to listen to anything else to the contrary as it’s just one big airport baggage claim of an argument being peddled daily. 

How about no new posts on Smith out until inevitably it happens? If we agree to that then we can all enjoy reading whatever crap Cambridge puts up from twatter. 😘

if we are honest we know who does and doesn’t want him to stay and we know that no one’s going to be changing their minds any time soon, so what’s the point of it? 

My only request would be for a call to arms that is a bit organised. Let’s say at the final whistle rather than just boo if it’s another crap performance and we have lost, we get all those wanting Smith out to chant ‘Smith Out’ for a sustained period of time. I’d use a significant number like games won under smith or points accumulated but these are far too low and the protest would be in the first half 😂. If it really is a fan majority feeling then this speeds up our agenda. If it isn’t then so be it. 

If it’s a win or even a draw with a decent performance we give him another break? I’d rather not but chanting him out for a victory sets up a different narrative that Webber et al would criticise (even if it would be hypocrisy of the highest calibre). 

It’s our club, let’s take it back

Tin hat at the ready 

[Petriix 2,835]

43 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

if we are honest we know who does and doesn’t want him to stay and we know that no one’s going to be changing their minds any time soon, so what’s the point of it? 

Well my opinion has gone from 'meh' after 10 games to 'boo' after 15. I've seen quite a few other forumites settle in the 'out' camp since the Luton defeat. Sure, there are a few die-hard 'inners' but the vast majority of people who've been able to string more than a few soundbites together are seemingly in agreement that it's probably time for a change, if not now then pretty soon. 

And, aside from the childish bickering between a couple of posters, the level of analysis and debate around the issue has been pretty decent.

For me, if I can't enjoy the football itself, I can at least enjoy having a jolly good moan about it! 

[Monty13 2,231]

7 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I don't like calling for people to be sacked, especially someone like Smith who seems a decent bloke. But it's not working, is it? Best for both parties if they go their separate ways.

 

I think this how I feel. I think Smith’s picked up a **** hand, has been treated a little unfairly due to Farkes popularity and has been fairly unlucky. That said I’ve not seen much to get excited about from him either.

I genuinely thought it may just click at some point, results were happening so no need to panic, but that trains left the station and it seems increasingly unlikely now. Someone described him as a dead duck and yea that’s what this feels like now, no one really seems to have any belief in him or what he’s doing. Bar a miracle this feels it’s going one way.

I don’t hate the guy, but I also won’t shed a tear when he takes his payout at some point and goes. When I look at this season and where the club is I guess I’m not angry (yet), just disappointed. I’m not sure how much of that is Smiths to shoulder.

[Haus 259]

14 hours ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

They were when they sacked him. Bottom 6 . End of . 

Spent loads of money and would have gone down with us if goal line tech hadnt failed 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

18 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

Not the time mate. Let us moan amongst ourselves without your smug crowing please. 

He's right though Jimbo. A Bee is not the problem, or even a symptom. 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

16 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

1)Simply making the point about patience in the absence of immediate transformations. 

2)Is taking over an inherited squad that's massively failing in the Premier League a realistic environment for building a new identity? Farke had a clear style and identity established at Championship level that was rarely evident in the face of Premier League opposition. 

3)Again, it's not really a year of squad building; it's more like 3 or 4 months, that did see good results and good stats for a fair while. 

4)I don't think it is. I've always believed that excessive importance is placed on the importance of the manager as a personality, which is a consequence of the fact that it's the only significant variable club's can change in a season. personally, I'd like to see transfer windows for managers to put an end to this ridiculous managerial merry-go-round obsession that pervades football. 

But my maint point about alluding to Klopp is that Smith has been actively rubbished by many on here for his interest in his collegiate approach and interest in stats, which are approaches that are actually well-established. 

Smith succeeded at every club he has been at. It's too easy to say 'it's not working here' and flail around. I'm actually interested in why it's not doing so well and how it might turn around, because I don't believe there's anything wrong with him as a manager. 

Yesterday I was fishing  in a shallow tidal rip, the tide was going out, therefore the water should have been getting shallower but it was in fact getting deeper..... The reason, the tide was pulling the sand from around my feet and I had to step 'up' out if that hole in order to move on. I was doing nothing ' wrong' ...but what I was doing just  wasn't working.