Let's be rational...

[littleyellowbirdie 2,534]

3 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Very much this. We had someone special in Farke and didnt have anyone lined up who was any kind of upgrade. Still strikes me that to get rid of him was a bad decision.  Maybe Webber thought he could get Lampard, or maybe even knew in advance that Smith would be available, but whatever, Farke was always going to be difficult to follow for anyone. We were successful because of Farke.

There will never ever be anyone lined up when a manager is sacked. It was a great time with Farke, but second stab at the Premier League with little to show for the first 10 games in charge. I love that our club has patience and allows managers time to develop, but I think the weight of evidence suggested that Farke couldn't take us to the next level; both Premier League seasons were his squads coached to his philosophy; the first was a dismal failure, and his 10 games of the second attempt was also dismal failure. 

Honestly, I'm just worn out by the negativity regarding Smith. The irrational negativity earlier in the season now has the backing of actual results being really poor for several games now, so I'm not going to try and defend the indefensible, but there was a lot to be positive about with this appointment that people have stubbornly rejected, so given it's an entertainment business at the end of the day, I'm alright with moving on.

[NeymarSmith 130]

8 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

At last someone with some actual points rather than pointless garbage about Gunn or Hamilton. 

I don’t agree with parts, others make sense.

My issue is that we haven’t ever had a clear run of playing anything like the preferred XI - there’s now been more than 5 games with 10 or more players out - but we should still be better than we have been and something obviously needs to change for the better, and fast.

How are you so blind, dumb or just wearing DS as a hat to not just accept and be confident in the statement that Dean Smith and Norwich city do not work, and did not at any point look like working and the football has been just awful. What a change it's been in just under a year. I can't believe anyone can have a good view point on this manager and the team ethos and style he has created.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

6 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I don't think it's as clear-cut perhaps as being made out directly after the result last night. I say that because there's at least half the posters over the last few hours bemoaning our players not being good enough. If that's the case then can you level it all at Smith?

Contrary to what people think, if they look back at my posts at the time you'll find I didn't want Farke sacked and I said it made absolutely no sense unless we had a practically guaranteed improvement walking through the door. We didn't get that.

But that's no longer relevant. What's relevant is can we get out of the championship with this manager. I personally think the players are good enough and we're currently underperforming. The first half was absolutely awful in the spaces we gave Burnley, although defensively we were solid and despite them being the form team they didn't create a clear chance.

I thought we were considerably better in the second half and again we're looking at an individual mistake for us losing the game (Hanley inexplicable handball). We didn't dominate the second half but we were on par with them. Considering the lack of confidence and form in our team compared to them, it was a positive. Of course, that alongside Todd and Pukki not taking their chances and us losing means there won't be any positive light put on last night. And I understand that.

Individual mistakes or not, managers don't survive runs of poor results too long. Play poorly and don't beat Stoke? I sense the fans will turn in the ground and that will probably be that.

It’s a mixture. The squad is unbalanced in key areas which makes the coach’s job harder.

But the coach is also not getting anywhere near the best out of what he has at his disposal.

Smith and Webber are equally culpable in my view. 

 

 

[WD40 720]

I can’t believe I’m still reading that we shouldn’t have sacked Farke. It had turned toxic. We were getting battered left right and centre and he was out of ideas. And there were 7 odd months of the season left. Yes we would like him in the championship but it doesn’t work like that.

Webber appointing Smith and keeping him in post so long is now the issue. Webber himself is an issue. Just doesn’t seem like there’s any leadership or direction and the owners are happy for Webber to mug them off and take interviews elsewhere or climb mountains but not sort out the mess in football operations. 

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

9 hours ago, Petriix said:

There are a lot of threads of minimal substance calling for Smith to go, but very little in the way of reasoning and analysis to support the view. That's disappointing given the wealth of evidence we have to backup the assertion that he simply isn't getting enough out of the players. 

For me there is a fundamental point which highlights the failure of Dean Smith's tenure. The overriding narrative of his appointment has been that he is supposed to be making us better equipped for Premier League survival. Indeed, the criticism of Farke was that he couldn't get results in the top flight. 

These fixtures against the better teams in the Championship are the perfect yardstick with which to measure our progress. Your Watfords, Burnleys and Sheffield Utds represent the easiest of Premier League opposition. If we did (somehow) go up then these are the teams we'll need to beat to survive.

Yet here we are. Barely able to get a foot on the ball. Backs against the wall, hoofing it clear over and over again. 

There's been no tangible progress. Just a dogmatic adherence to the flawed 4-3-3 despite its obvious shortcomings. Repeatedly trying the same thing and getting the same results.

So what has Smith brought to the club? How have we progressed? I see occasional glimmers of what the plan might be, but then I see huge holes on our flanks with runners unmarked as they arrive in our box, time and time again.

Is the hope really to just pump the ball forwards and hope that Pukki can make something happen?

Just 18 months ago we were playing the best football I've ever seen from Norwich. It was beautiful to watch. Now we're a shadow of that team.

Worst of all, Burnley are showing us exactly how it should be done. Passing, movement, intensity, perseverance. Things we only see in brief spells. 

And two of our best players in Pukki and Cantwell are out of contract in the summer. This is very much the end of an era. Sacking Farke looks worse by the week. And before you trott out that line about the same people calling for Farke's sacking now wanting him back... No, that's b@llocks. Lots of us - those with a sense of perspective - never wanted him to go. And we were bloody right! 

Absolutely 100% this ^

And that includes your very last point - there is no hindsight whatsoever in use here, many (most?) of us never wanted Farke to be sacked in the first place and I suspect that even those that did were assuming that Webber had a much better replacement than Dean Smith lined up as a replacement.

Despite his good work in the early days Webber has made a catastrophic series of mistakes which have damaged us severely and made the club and the team unrecognisable compared to where we were 15-18 months ago.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

8 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

No, we aren’t, but we have been uniquely unlucky in that we have had to play 6 different players at left back. Surely you’ll admit that’s unusual. 

 

Seem to remember Farke had to do something pretty similar at left back..............and still won the Championship at a stroll and in great style.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

17 minutes ago, WD40 said:

I can’t believe I’m still reading that we shouldn’t have sacked Farke. It had turned toxic. ]

There is definitely some revisionism at play here, the crowd had turned.

The problem is that we had a misguided belief that Webber knew what he was doing and trusted him to find a suitable replacement.

Now we know he's a clueless charlatan.

Edited October 26, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[Petriix 2,834]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It was at the core of it's success at championship level; the philosophy could not translate to Premier League level with the resources at our disposal. We need to be a club that wins ugly to establish in the premier League.

Don't get me wrong. I was okay with being a yo-yo club under him, but too many weren't, so aesthetics need to go out of the window in favour of pragmatism to establish in the premier League.

And this is why all the stupid 'eye test' comments get on my nerves so much.

Yet that 'pragmatism' has us outside the top 6 in the Championship, highly unlikely to be promoted. And the acid test of the games against the better Championship sides shows that we've only gone backwards. 

I understand the theory of what sacking Farke was supposed to achieve. But that has objectively failed whilst also destroying the subjective things we all enjoyed too.

I will always maintain that Farkeball in the mode that won our biggest ever points haul would have been just fine in the Premier League. We'll never know. But we do know that what has followed has been an abject failure. 

When we're languishing in League 1 in 5 years time, the decision to sack Farke will look so incredibly stupid... 

[kenfoggo 247]

Little yellow birdie, I think that perhaps you did not read the title of this thread “Let’s be rational” . No comment on this message board can possibly affect the performance on the pitch. The failings are due solely to the actions or inaction of the senior staff at the Club. Disagreement on this site is only a reflection of the dissatisfaction with the poor performances on the field of play.

[wesforprimeminister 25]

9 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

At last someone with some actual points rather than pointless garbage about Gunn or Hamilton. 

I don’t agree with parts, others make sense.

My issue is that we haven’t ever had a clear run of playing anything like the preferred XI - there’s now been more than 5 games with 10 or more players out - but we should still be better than we have been and something obviously needs to change for the better, and fast.

Super Hayden is back, he looks like another amazing super duper signing who was out of his depth last night against JACK CORK.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,534]

Just now, Petriix said:

Yet that 'pragmatism' has us outside the top 6 in the Championship, highly unlikely to be promoted. And the acid test of the games against the better Championship sides shows that we've only gone backwards. 

I understand the theory of what sacking Farke was supposed to achieve. But that has objectively failed whilst also destroying the subjective things we all enjoyed too.

I will always maintain that Farkeball in the mode that won our biggest ever points haul would have been just fine in the Premier League. We'll never know. But we do know that what has followed has been an abject failure. 

When we're languishing in League 1 in 5 years time, the decision to sack Farke will look so incredibly stupid... 

To be honest, I'd have been happy to keep going and keep trying that, but there were too many who weren't. It was fair enough to move on, and it was unfair to make Dean Smith a punching bag simply for being his replacement. Smith's tenure isn't defensible at the moment, so I won't defend it, but there was plenty to be positive about in a rational sense earlier in the season that many stubbornly rejected, so threads like the one you've just started talking about 'being rational' leave a bitter taste in the mouth. 

As for 'when we're languishing in league '1, that's just a silly negative  that has no place on a thread about being rational; we've never spent more than a season in league one in my life. 

[Branston Pickle 3,651]

39 minutes ago, NeymarSmith said:

How are you so blind, dumb or just wearing DS as a hat to not just accept and be confident in the statement that Dean Smith and Norwich city do not work, and did not at any point look like working and the football has been just awful. What a change it's been in just under a year. I can't believe anyone can have a good view point on this manager and the team ethos and style he has created.

Maybe try reading what I say, rather than what you think I’m saying next time? 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Smith's tenure isn't defensible at the moment, so I won't defend it

Who are you kidding, you've basically gone to war for him.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,534]

Just now, TeemuVanBasten said:

Who are you kidding, you've basically gone to war for him.

No I haven't. I'm not a fan of sacking managers without a really strong case for it. You get off on it for some reason.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It was at the core of it's success at championship level; the philosophy could not translate to Premier League level with the resources at our disposal.

That may be your opinion but no more than that, and certainly not one shared by many including our Sporting Director.

Unfortunately we will never know one way or another as the 'resources at our disposal' were severely depleted (totally wasted might be more accurate) by Webber before the Premiership season even began by costly but poor player recruitment.

Farke started that Premiership campaign with a much poorer squad than he had won the Championship with but that wasn't a given - it was a direct result of poor decisions made by Webber.

That Webber then made Farke the scapegoat for his own failures was totally unacceptable and unforgiveable IMO, albeit that is irrevelant to the actual point around whether Farke's philosophy could or couldn't have ever succeeded in the Premier League.

That we will never know but one thing I am certain of is that I would much prefer to watch Farke's teams playing exciting and entertaining football in any division rather than the absolute dross that Smith has served up in both the EPL and Championship.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

No I haven't. I'm not a fan of sacking managers without a really strong case for it. 

Its open and shut.

He's sh*t and we can all see it.

[Capt. Pants 4,222]

The injuries don't help the flow and progression of performances, but on a game by game basis have not cost us. In fact our 9 game unbeaten run was with backup LBs.

Individual errors and sheer stupidity in attitude have cost us in recent matches, oddly from the more senior players.

You can argue Smith can't be blamed for that and they are mitigating factors, which probably means he gets another game or two. However, I'm not convinced the players are fully invested in him; Hanley sounds and behaves as frustrated as I've seen him here, Pukki has lost his sparkle and Aarons looks totally beaten. 

It just feels there is no way back for him now.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Capt. Pants

[canarydan23 4,060]

9 minutes ago, Petriix said:

I will always maintain that Farkeball in the mode that won our biggest ever points haul would have been just fine in the Premier League. We'll never know. But we do know that what has followed has been an abject failure. 

I agree, it was woeful recruitment that ruined us. Had we signed Andrich as the DM and St Juste as the marquee CB, as Farke allegedly wanted, then with a chunk of luck that saw key players stay fit, I think we'd have had a great season last year. Instead Webber went scattergun and recruited not only dross, but dross that meant a complete reevaluation of our philosophy and approach.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,534]

1 minute ago, Creative Midfielder said:

That may be your opinion but no more than that, and certainly not one shared by many including our Sporting Director.

Unfortunately we will never know one way or another as the 'resources at our disposal' were severely depleted (totally wasted might be more accurate) by Webber before the Premiership season even began by costly but poor player recruitment.

Farke started that Premiership campaign with a much poorer squad than he had won the Championship with but that wasn't a given - it was a direct result of poor decisions made by Webber.

That Webber then made Farke the scapegoat for his own failures was totally unacceptable and unforgiveable IMO, albeit that is irrevelant to the actual point around whether Farke's philosophy could or couldn't have ever succeeded in the Premier League.

That we will never know but one thing I am certain of is that I would much prefer to watch Farke's teams playing exciting and entertaining football in any division rather than the absolute dross that Smith has served up in both the EPL and Championship.

It's an opinion backed by two failed stabs at the Premier League. The first didn't come close to survival and the second one didn't look like it was coming remotely close either. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,534]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

I agree, it was woeful recruitment that ruined us. Had we signed Andrich as the DM and St Juste as the marquee CB, as Farke allegedly wanted, then with a chunk of luck that saw key players stay fit, I think we'd have had a great season last year. Instead Webber went scattergun and recruited not only dross, but dross that meant a complete reevaluation of our philosophy and approach.

You're forgetting that the atmosphere was absolutely toxic by the end of game 10 in the second season. I agree there was a hell of a lot of bad luck in that first attempt, but come project restart the squad had absolutely collapsed. Most clubs would have sacked him during project restart and it would have been hard to argue against. 

[Jim Smith 2,317]

15 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Yet that 'pragmatism' has us outside the top 6 in the Championship, highly unlikely to be promoted. And the acid test of the games against the better Championship sides shows that we've only gone backwards. 

I understand the theory of what sacking Farke was supposed to achieve. But that has objectively failed whilst also destroying the subjective things we all enjoyed too.

I will always maintain that Farkeball in the mode that won our biggest ever points haul would have been just fine in the Premier League. We'll never know. But we do know that what has followed has been an abject failure. 

When we're languishing in League 1 in 5 years time, the decision to sack Farke will look so incredibly stupid... 

Farkeball was undermined completely by the transfer policy/failings and particularly the defensive mid.

Farkeball with two solid central mids may have worked. As it was we signed players to play a 4-3-3 two summers ago (despite the fact we preferred 4-2-3-1) and now with a manager who plays 4-3-3 we’ve got rid of all the wide players! 

 

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,289]

3 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

, which probably means he gets another game or two.

 

 

See, I've always been of the belief that when you've reached the " he gets a couple more games " territory, the writing is already on the wall and you might aswell pull the trigger then and there. 

[Nuff Said 5,112]

15 minutes ago, WD40 said:

I can’t believe I’m still reading that we shouldn’t have sacked Farke. It had turned toxic. We were getting battered left right and centre and he was out of ideas. And there were 7 odd months of the season left. Yes we would like him in the championship but it doesn’t work like that.

Webber appointing Smith and keeping him in post so long is now the issue. Webber himself is an issue. Just doesn’t seem like there’s any leadership or direction and the owners are happy for Webber to mug them off and take interviews elsewhere or climb mountains but not sort out the mess in football operations. 

Half (first half) this.

If we ARE going to be rational, Farke was a great Championship manager who who got the very best of the in general somewhat meagre resources at his disposal. However, he was also extremely fortunate to have a Premier League quality player in Emi Buendia fall into his lap. Pukki also to a lesser extent. He wasn’t the messiah, despite the gloss of nostalgia that has already descended in the heads of many posters.
 

Some of the football was entertaining to watch, but a fair percentage of it actually wasn’t. His way of working clearly was a write-off in the Premier League and to keep him would have condemned us to a Sisyphean cycle of promotion and relegation. The club recognised this and acted, as most of us wanted, to try something different.

 

However, I don’t agree that Webber is the problem. It could be argued that the culture of our club, which Webber has bought into, is the problem, in that we don’t react in a knee-jerk way to a run of poor form and sack the “manager” regularly, AKA do a Watford. But this has been the Norwich way for many years pre-Webber. I personally don’t have a problem with this, I’m all for a considered, long-term view.
 

We don’t have a mess in football operations, we run a sustainable, relatively successful club that has invested in its infrastructure and academy to good effect. How many other clubs are now also looking to invest in youth, buy youngsters with an eye for the future and avoid over-priced journeymen? We set the trend under Webber. That is the rational, dispassionate view that a neutral observer would see.

 

But looking long-term is why, after going to my first away game for two and a half years last night, I probably do agree that Smith’s time should be coming to an end. I have been prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt up to now. Even when we started poorly, the performances (and stats, but please let’s not go there) were reasonably encouraging. Results then went our way. But since the form has turned, and from what I saw last night, we are a team that is less than the sum of its parts. We have excellent resources compared to many in this division, a mix of promising youth and experienced Premier League players. The problems with injuries are lessening. But we can’t turn that into success on the pitch. That has to be down to the coaching team.

The question is, is now the time to act? Is there any point waiting longer to see if it can be turned around? If you don’t think Webber is obsessing over this constantly, you are mistaken.

 

 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

14 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

The problem is that we had a misguided belief that Webber knew what he was doing and trusted him to find a suitable replacement.

Speaking of misguided beliefs…. The amount of fans that spout / spouted ‘we have the best squad, automatic promotion is the minimum we should be achieving’, ‘Hayden is a proven Premier League player’, and ‘Sargent is our saviour’!   So off the mark with reality.   
 

Burnley’s new crop of players who all cost around the £3m mark or less were sharp, skilful, creative and up for the game!   We just look so laboured and fed up!   

[Branston Pickle 3,651]

6 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

No I haven't. I'm not a fan of sacking managers without a really strong case for it. You get off on it for some reason.

See, this is the thing- some are so anti and have been at the outset, that any/all points made to the contrary make it sound like you’re some kind of Smith groupie. It’s ridiculous.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,534]

 

 

1 minute ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

See, I've always been of the belief that when you've reached the " he gets a couple more games " territory, the writing is already on the wall and you might aswell pull the trigger then and there. 

That point was reached several times with Farke without it happening, and many were happy with the results of not sacking him. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,534]

1 minute ago, Branston Pickle said:

See, this is the thing- some are so anti and have been at the outset, that any/all points made to the contrary make it sound like you’re some kind of Smith groupie. It’s ridiculous.

They consciously paint people who have defended Smith as groupie's to gaslight them in deflecting from their weird pathological vendetta against him. 

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,289]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

 

 

That point was reached several times with Farke without it happening, and many were happy with the results of not sacking him. 

Which means absolutely nothing in regards to the position we find ourselves now. 

[Indy 3,297]

8 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It's an opinion backed by two failed stabs at the Premier League. The first didn't come close to survival and the second one didn't look like it was coming remotely close either. 

One stab at the premiership, the second was only 11 games, Smith relegated us.

[Nuff Said 5,112]

Just now, GodlyOtsemobor said:

Which means absolutely nothing in regards to the position we find ourselves now. 

Talking of gaslighting…