Let's be rational...

[Petriix 3,219]

There are a lot of threads of minimal substance calling for Smith to go, but very little in the way of reasoning and analysis to support the view. That's disappointing given the wealth of evidence we have to backup the assertion that he simply isn't getting enough out of the players. 

For me there is a fundamental point which highlights the failure of Dean Smith's tenure. The overriding narrative of his appointment has been that he is supposed to be making us better equipped for Premier League survival. Indeed, the criticism of Farke was that he couldn't get results in the top flight. 

These fixtures against the better teams in the Championship are the perfect yardstick with which to measure our progress. Your Watfords, Burnleys and Sheffield Utds represent the easiest of Premier League opposition. If we did (somehow) go up then these are the teams we'll need to beat to survive.

Yet here we are. Barely able to get a foot on the ball. Backs against the wall, hoofing it clear over and over again. 

There's been no tangible progress. Just a dogmatic adherence to the flawed 4-3-3 despite its obvious shortcomings. Repeatedly trying the same thing and getting the same results.

So what has Smith brought to the club? How have we progressed? I see occasional glimmers of what the plan might be, but then I see huge holes on our flanks with runners unmarked as they arrive in our box, time and time again.

Is the hope really to just pump the ball forwards and hope that Pukki can make something happen?

Just 18 months ago we were playing the best football I've ever seen from Norwich. It was beautiful to watch. Now we're a shadow of that team.

Worst of all, Burnley are showing us exactly how it should be done. Passing, movement, intensity, perseverance. Things we only see in brief spells. 

And two of our best players in Pukki and Cantwell are out of contract in the summer. This is very much the end of an era. Sacking Farke looks worse by the week. And before you trott out that line about the same people calling for Farke's sacking now wanting him back... No, that's b@llocks. Lots of us - those with a sense of perspective - never wanted him to go. And we were bloody right! 

[KeiranShikari 1,524]

It's easier to just call him a useless ****.

[Branston Pickle 4,150]

Just now, KeiranShikari said:

It's easier to just call him a useless ****.

Well done. You must feel very proud.

[Branston Pickle 4,150]

4 minutes ago, Petriix said:

There are a lot of threads of minimal substance calling for Smith to go, but very little in the way of reasoning and analysis to support the view. That's disappointing given the wealth of evidence we have to backup the assertion that he simply isn't getting enough out of the players. 

For me there is a fundamental point which highlights the failure of Dean Smith's tenure. The overriding narrative of his appointment has been that he is supposed to be making us better equipped for Premier League survival. Indeed, the criticism of Farke was that he couldn't get results in the top flight. 

These fixtures against the better teams in the Championship are the perfect yardstick with which to measure our progress. Your Watfords, Burnleys and Sheffield Utds represent the easiest of Premier League opposition. If we did (somehow) go up then these are the teams we'll need to beat to survive.

Yet here we are. Barely able to get a foot on the ball. Backs against the wall, hoofing it clear over and over again. 

There's been no tangible progress. Just a dogmatic adherence to the flawed 4-3-3 despite its obvious shortcomings. Repeatedly trying the same thing and getting the same results.

So what has Smith brought to the club? How have we progressed? I see occasional glimmers of what the plan might be, but then I see huge holes on our flanks with runners unmarked as they arrive in our box, time and time again.

Is the hope really to just pump the ball forwards and hope that Pukki can make something happen?

Just 18 months ago we were playing the best football I've ever seen from Norwich. It was beautiful to watch. Now we're a shadow of that team.

Worst of all, Burnley are showing us exactly how it should be done. Passing, movement, intensity, perseverance. Things we only see in brief spells. 

And two of our best players in Pukki and Cantwell are out of contract in the summer. This is very much the end of an era. Sacking Farke looks worse by the week. And before you trott out that line about the same people calling for Farke's sacking now wanting him back... No, that's b@llocks. Lots of us - those with a sense of perspective - never wanted him to go. And we were bloody right! 

At last someone with some actual points rather than pointless garbage about Gunn or Hamilton. 

I don’t agree with parts, others make sense.

My issue is that we haven’t ever had a clear run of playing anything like the preferred XI - there’s now been more than 5 games with 10 or more players out - but we should still be better than we have been and something obviously needs to change for the better, and fast.

[Mason 47 1,924]

I still think Farke leaving was probably the right thing. The idealistic dream of being the protagonist in the Premier League wasnt working and he wasn't going to change.

I can't disagree with anything else you say though. We're trying to set up a collection of players in forced roles they aren't good at, with a formation that dulls our attack and puts pressure on the defence. It feels like we're determined that at some point the team will suddenly morph into a high-pressing Liverpool-esque monster, but the players aren't correct for that.

4-2-3-1. Legs in midfield, technique in attacking mid; not a selection of attacking midfielders trying to play box to box. One of our strikers, not awkwardly both in a way that murders productivity. But even then I don't think it'll be enough 

 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

2 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

My issue is that we haven’t ever had a clear run of playing anything like the preferred XI

No club ever does, every club has injuries.

You think Burnley wouldn't have wanted Ashley Westwood in their XI? (broken ankle), also missing two of their new players in Churlinov and Twine who are both wide players.

Sheffield Uniteds injury list is far longer than ours. They are missing Berge, Norrington-Davies, and Max Lowe from their first choice XI, and have 2 x other defenders out in Ciaran Clarke and Jack O'Connell.

QPR have got their best player out, Willock who scored 7 in 9 games before doing his Hammy.

Year after year after year the same people on here bemoan our terrible luck with injuries, because they imagine this strange world where we're the only team that gets any, rather than accepting that we continuously suffer because we leave ourselves short in multiple areas time and time again.

We have an average number of injuries. That's why clubs can register 25 players when a matchday squad is 18 players, because injuries happen.

[Nexus_Canary 1,206]

Brentford was probably the turning point but we will never know.....

All i know is the man tasked with keeping us up failed and is failing at getting us back up again.

Fire him now before its too late

[Branston Pickle 4,150]

3 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

No club ever does, every club has injuries.

You think Burnley wouldn't have wanted Ashley Westwood in their XI? (broken ankle), also missing two of their new players in Churlinov and Twine who are both wide players.

Sheffield Uniteds injury list is far longer than ours. They are missing Berge, Norrington-Davies, and Max Lowe from their first choice XI, and have 2 x other defenders out in Ciaran Clarke and Jack O'Connell.

QPR have got their best player out, Willock who scored 7 in 9 games before doing his Hammy.

Year after year after year the same people on here bemoan our terrible luck with injuries, because they imagine this strange world where we're the only team that gets any, rather than accepting that we continuously suffer because we leave ourselves short in multiple areas time and time again.

We have an average number of injuries. That's why clubs can register 25 players when a matchday squad is 18 players, because injuries happen.

Blah blah blah.

We have an above average number of injuries, and a very above average in defence (left backs).  That is fact, not conjecture.  We have had 10 players or more (who would be first team or played in the PL last season) out for at least 5 fixtures this season.  That is unusual.

The fact you won’t or can’t see it despite proof is very sad.

In itself it doesn’t excuse poor performances, but can be a contributing factor.
 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[Petriix 3,219]

8 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

My issue is that we haven’t ever had a clear run of playing anything like the preferred XI - there’s now been more than 5 games with 10 or more players out

Do you really think we're uniquely unlucky with injuries?

We've known for a long time that we need a couple of defensive midfielders yet we keep signing 8/10s.

There was something special happening at this football club. That's been totally destroyed since last summer. 

[Branston Pickle 4,150]

2 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Do you really think we're uniquely unlucky with injuries?

We've known for a long time that we need a couple of defensive midfielders yet we keep signing 8/10s.

There was something special happening at this football club. That's been totally destroyed since last summer. 

No, we aren’t, but we have been uniquely unlucky in that we have had to play 6 different players at left back. Surely you’ll admit that’s unusual.  

All I’m saying is that it could be a contributing factor to poor performance - but some don’t even appear to think we have anyone out. 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,830]

Won't Somebody PLEASE think of the injuries 

 

😩😩😩

 

 

[Branston Pickle 4,150]

2 minutes ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

Won't Somebody PLEASE think of the injuries 

 

😩😩😩

 

 

Oh, well done.  You must be proud.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,830]

Just now, Branston Pickle said:

Oh, well done.  You must be proud.

I am, I really really am. 

[Petriix 3,219]

1 minute ago, Branston Pickle said:

No,

but we have had to play 6 different players at left back. Surely you’ll admit that’s unusual.

All I’m saying is that it could be a contributing factor to poor performance - but some don’t even appear to admit we have anyone out!!

 

Yet everyone who's filled in at left back has done fine while the gaping holes in our midfield have gone unplugged. Yes, it's unlucky, but we should easily have enough depth in the squad. 

[Branston Pickle 4,150]

1 minute ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

I am, I really really am. 

Oh well, little things and all that.

Its a shame this thread has turned into a **** take but that seems to be the lot these days.

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,830]

Just now, Branston Pickle said:

Oh well, little things and all that.

Its a shame this thread has turned into a **** take but that seems to be the lot these days.

Only when it's easy 

Edited October 25, 2022 by GodlyOtsemobor

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

2 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

We have had 10 players or more (who would be first team or played in the PL last season) out for at least 5 fixtures this season.  That is unusual. 

We have a Sporting Director who has literally said that taking a punt on players who are cheap due to past injury issues is part of his transfer strategy, so even if it is true that we suffer injuries at a more prevalent rate than other clubs then I suggest you start distinguishing between cause and effect.

Lots of injuries = the effect.

The cause = ???

As I just said, Sheffield United have got 5 defenders and 2 wingers out injured as well as their first choice DM.

There is a degree of victim mentality which shines through with Norwich fans when we get a few injuries. They are a fact of life, the reality is that our squad is seldom balanced sufficiently to cope with injuries. This includes now being in yet another season of only having one established and recognised DM.

I'll let you blame a bit of bad luck on the left back situation, but there's really no excuse for going into this season with an injured Isaac Hayden as our only recognised DM.

 

[Branston Pickle 4,150]

Just now, GodlyOtsemobor said:

Only when it's easy 

Easy to ignore facts?  Ok, fine. The point remains true. 

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,830]

Just now, Branston Pickle said:

Easy to ignore facts?  Ok, fine. The point remains true. 

Noooo darling, easy to take the **** 

[Branston Pickle 4,150]

1 minute ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

We have a Sporting Director who has literally said that taking a punt on players who are cheap due to past injury issues is part of his transfer strategy, so even if it is true that we suffer injuries at a more prevalent rate than other clubs then I suggest you start distinguishing between cause and effect.

Lots of injuries = the effect.

The cause = ???

As I just said, Sheffield United have got 5 defenders and 2 wingers out injured as well as their first choice DM.

There is a degree of victim mentality which shines through with Norwich fans when we get a few injuries. They are a fact of life, the reality is that our squad is seldom balanced sufficiently to cope with injuries. This includes now being in yet another season of only having one established and recognised DM.

I'll let you blame a bit of bad luck on the left back situation, but there's really no excuse for going into this season with an injured Isaac Hayden as our only recognised DM.

 

You’d seem fixated with Sheff Utd - I was actually reading an article the other day suggesting their loss of early-season form was linked to injuries.   It seems that the same can’t apply to anyone else in your strange world.  

[Canario 268]

6 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Blah blah blah.

We have an above average number of injuries, and a very above average in defence (left backs).  That is fact, not conjecture.  We have had 10 players or more (who would be first team or played in the PL last season) out for at least 5 fixtures this season.  That is unusual. 

True perhaps but this underlines the need to have a clear identity and strategy. The supposed plan is that replacements can slot into a system and way of playing - we simply dont have one.

Incidentally this is also the supposed plan for our head coaches - continuity. 

We failed on both counts so far and this comes fron the top - Webber for Head Coaches and "Deano" for playing staff.

In an ideal world both wwould be gone but

A) you dont sack a Champs manager for losing to Burnley.

B) who do we get do replace them both?

C) do we even have the funds to do so?

What a mess

[Branston Pickle 4,150]

1 minute ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

Noooo darling, easy to take the **** 

Fine by me, you carry on.

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,830]

Just now, Canario said:

True perhaps but this underlines the need to have a clear identity and strategy. The supposed plan is that replacements can slot into a system and way of playing - we simply dont have one.

Incidentally this is also the supposed plan for our head coaches - continuity. 

We failed on both counts so far and this comes fron the top - Webber for Head Coaches and "Deano" for playing staff.

In an ideal world both wwould be gone but

A) you dont sack a Champs manager for losing to Burnley.

B) who do we get do replace them both?

C) do we even have the funds to do so?

What a mess

It was fine for worthy

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

Just now, Branston Pickle said:

You’d seem fixated with Sheff Utd

I gave Burnley and Sheffield United as examples because they are our last 2 opponents and we failed to beat either of them. I thought you might be bright enough to see the link.

And I used QPR as an example because despite having their best player out they are currently top of the league.

I'm happy to go through the other 20 clubs in the division if you like. I can already tell you that we're somewhere around the median for number of injuries and that numerous clubs have it much worse. 

[KeiranShikari 1,524]

3 minutes ago, Canario said:

A) you dont sack a Champs manager for losing to Burnley.

B) who do we get do replace them both?

C) do we even have the funds to do so?

 

A) You sack him for a year of poor performances.

B) Not our job

C) Can we afford not to when promotion is so important?

Edited October 25, 2022 by KeiranShikari

[Branston Pickle 4,150]

5 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I gave Burnley and Sheffield United as examples because they are our last 2 opponents and we failed to beat either of them. I thought you might be bright enough to see the link.

And I used QPR as an example because despite having their best player out they are currently top of the league.

I'm happy to go through the other 20 clubs in the division if you like. I can already tell you that we're somewhere around the median for number of injuries and that numerous clubs have it much worse. 

You’re saying more than half of Champs sides have >10 Potential first team players out?  I call b-s, I really do.

The thing you are somewhat ignoring is that I said we should still be playing better than we are.  But then that’s unsurprising as you often appear to miss the point.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

5 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

You really think there’s more than half Champs sides have >10 Potential first treat players out?  I call b-s.

I think the onus is very much on you to prove whether that is the case or not, as you are the one claiming that we have had above average injury problems over the course of the season so far. I'll trust you to provide the data to back that up, as from where I'm sitting it looks and smells like you are making it up and don't have any.

I'm only referring to the list of current injuries, I don't really see where you are coming from here. Dean Smith has taken us from 2nd to 7th after a dismal spell of form over the past 6 games, and you want to talk about injuries that we might have had during our spell of good form in early September when we were 2nd?

Lets talk about the now please...

... this is the now:

https://www.sportsgambler.com/injuries/football/england-championship/

Edited October 25, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[Branston Pickle 4,150]

5 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I think the onus is very much on you to prove whether that is the case or not, as you are the one claiming that we have above average injury problems.

I'm only referring to the list of current injuries, I don't really see where you are coming from here. Dean Smith has taken us from 2nd to 7th after a dismal spell of form over the past 6 games, and you want to talk about injuries in early September?

Lets talk about the now please...

... this is the now:

https://www.sportsgambler.com/injuries/football/england-championship/

Nope - it was your assertion that we were at the median, and want to disprove me so the onus is on you to back it up. If you can.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Branston Pickle

[nutty nigel 7,902]

1 minute ago, GodlyOtsemobor said:

It was fine for worthy

Indeed. And after beating Brentford was fine for Farke.

Those two sackings got us Grant and Smith. After Grant came Roeder. After Smith?

Now fear of what may happen is no reason to keep a failing manager. We just have to hope they get the next one right. But the players don't choose the manager and some of the stuff being said on here about them is enough to suggest they are the problem. And that would make changing the manager pointless.

 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

7 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Nope - it was your assertion that we were at the median, and want to disprove me so the onus is on you to back it up.  

Somewhere around the median number of current injuries.

This weird parameter of 5 or more games across the whole season was completely made up by you, and now you've got absolutely nothing in terms of data that you can actually bring to the table.

You are desperately trying to find a way to blame our terrible performances against Sheffield United and Burnley on injury problems that we no longer have. 

We had a left back, we had Hayden, we're still sh*t.

Edited October 25, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten