Our new thuggery

[chicken 2,604]

4 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

Some people on here are very happy about our recent attempts at sh*thousery. IMO, it's having a disastrous effect.

Yesterday we were 2-0 up, their fans were quiet, and their players looked resigned to defeat. We needlessly started time-wasting, diving and kicking the opponents (with at least 30 minutes to go!), their fans woke up, their players responded, and a victory melted before our eyes. All we had to do was hang on to the ball and pass it around - we didn't even need to attempt to get a third - but someone thought it was a better plan to turn the game into a war.

Yesterday we had no one to go LB so we had to put Giannoulis in earlier than we would have wished. Why? Because of McLean's needless aggression in the previous game. Likewise, Hanley could easily have got an automatic red both yesterday and in an earlier game for kicking an opponent. Since Omobamidele is injured, this would have led to a centre-back crisis and really scuppered our hopes for the next few games. As well as his antics in the opposition's box possibly costing us a point against Preston.

Think of that play-off final against Middlesbrough. Alex Neil killed off the game through organising and utilising his players, not by telling them to dive and kick lumps out of the opposition. Farke did it in 20/21 by simply hanging onto the ball and not giving the opposition much chance to counter. Is it a coincidence that we are now descending to thuggery instead of trying to impose ourselves on games through organising our side to make the most of their superior quality?

You employ sh*thousery when your players are poorer than your opponent's, not when you believe you have the superior squad. Then sh*thousery merely drags you down to their level.

I'm not sure McLean's red could be described as "needless" he needed to do something as the ref clearly wasn't going to do anything. If anything, he should have employed the very sh!thousery you are arguing against and thrown himself to the ground and asked the question of the referee. From my perspective it did look like he was trying to shove the player and didn't mean to make contact with his face, but that's by the by. 

Hanley kicked the player after the ref said play on with the ball under said player. It's happened so many times in games before now, when a player falls over or throws themselves to the ground and covers the ball. Usually, the ref blows for a free kick the other way for obstruction as essentially the player is preventing anyone from making a fair challenge. The ref blew play on. It was never more than a yellow at best, but a shockingly poor decision by the ref too. If the ball isn't in a position to be played safely the decision should not be "play on".

And in that sense, it was more sh!thousery in response to sh!thousery than an employment of it. Shef Utd are masters of it. And there was plenty from them too. It takes two to tango, but them being more versed in it, played to their experience and a lack of it from us. 

Quote

You employ sh*thousery when your players are poorer than your opponent's, not when you believe you have the superior squad. Then sh*thousery merely drags you down to their level.

Utter nonsense. The best teams in the world are superb at both aspects of the game, when they have the ball and when they don't. Watch Barcelona when they had Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Puyol etc in their side, they could be scintillating to watch on the ball, but they were incredibly adept at preventing the opposition from finding a rhythm. Little tug backs, clips, tips of fouls - not enough to get a yellow, but enough to stop play, or slow it down. They'd argue with the ref, not angrily, but cynically, more trying to debate the laws of the game. They'd have someone go stand over a ball when a free kick was given against them, just to slow the speed in which it can be taken. Then they'd do that thing with throw ins, the winger would go to take it, look to take it, then give it to the full back.

To say it's just poor teams is such a false comment. I'd put money on teams employing it at the world cup and they won't be the poorest teams in it either. 

Overall I think you make a mistake. I don't think it is purely the gamesmanship here that people enjoyed seeing, or have praised, but the fight, the willingness to push back that hasn't really been seen in our side since probably the Lambert/Hughton era. I happen to know a couple of ex Norwich players had criticised the football in recent years for being "too nice" especially in the premier league. Players both from the early 90's era and Lamberts team. That says a lot to me. And going by most of the comments from last season on here, more fight and ability to battle physically was what people wanted to see from our side.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

13 minutes ago, Michael Starr said:

It all boils down to the same thing. WE -- DID -- NOT -- CONTROL -- THE -- GAME. The fans were turning on their team and coach. All we had to do was stay focused, stay calm... ride out the final fight.

What it boils down to is that we got a point away from home against a top half championship side who have also had Premier League money in their recent history who were very recently at the top of the table. 

[chicken 2,604]

51 minutes ago, raunds canary said:

Sadly this has crept into football. Used to just be heading into the corner in injury time. No it's players feigning injury if the team is ahead , taking ages over a thrown in , goalkeepers falling on the ball after a routine catch and surrounding the ref at every opportunity. Spoiling the game for all

Huh? It's been around since before football was invented (reference to the premier league). One of the reasons Best was such an amazing player was because he rode so many of the deliberately dirty tackles with such balance and grace and didn't allow it to put him off his game in those moments.

It's arguably very much the roots of football, it used to be far more brutal, far rougher and far worse in that respect. Just think of the Don Revie Vs Brian Clough rivalry and why it was so fierce. 

[Canario 203]

4 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

So just to recap, everybody else in the Championship can play as dirty as they like in the assurance that any disruption to our gameplay wil not be considered in the evaluation of the 'clueless clowns' at Norwich,, but if Norwich ever employs these tactics themselves then it's an absolute disgrace that brings shame on the county. 

Unbelievable. 

Wasnt able to catch the game but did we actually get stuck in? Fouls count would suggest we didnt. We are absolutely lightweight but that doesnt stop us from fouling a la Man City. Tactical breaking up of the game. 

[Captain Holt 520]

3 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

What it boils down to is that we got a point away from home against a top half championship side who have also had Premier League money in their recent history who were very recently at the top of the table. 

Dean Smith could come round and roger your missus and you'd be there for him afterwards with a towel and a tray of biscuits.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

2 hours ago, Captain Holt said:

Dean Smith could come round and roger your missus and you'd be there for him afterwards with a towel and a tray of biscuits.

With your attitude to him, I assumed he actually had rogered your missus...

[Branston Pickle 3,636]

8 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

A lot of Sheffield United fans on their forum seem to think that we let them back in the game because we were so focused on trying to get Sheffield United players sent off, instead of trying to finish the game with a 3rd goal, and I can't really disagree.

Tbh Sharp should have had 3 bookings at least.

[Branston Pickle 3,636]

5 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

What it boils down to is that we got a point away from home against a top half championship side who have also had Premier League money in their recent history who were very recently at the top of the table. 

I am as sure as I can be that some had instilled them as title favourites a few weeks back. It’s funny how things change.

[paddycanary 538]

7 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

It hasn't really just crept in. It's just evolved to fit how the game has evolved. Back in the day some clubs made an art of getting in front and spending the rest of the game passing back to the keeper who could pick the ball up and then spend time faffing about before getting rid and then often getting it back and go through the whole process again. For those who remember how frustrating was that?

I remember after Ireland equalised against Holland at Italia 90, the referee had to stop the game and speak to the two captains about genuinely attempting an attack. As it stood, both teams were qualifying from the group and a training session would have been more competitive. That game was one of the catalysts for the 'backpass' rule being implemented.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

1 hour ago, Branston Pickle said:

I am as sure as I can be that some had instilled them as title favourites a few weeks back. It’s funny how things change.

I'm still getting my head around the weirdness of importing another teams' supporters' complaints about the play of our team to this forum. At rock bottom, I don't think they're moaning about any sh1thousery from us because they thought Norwich would have took all three points if they hadn't done it. More likely it's grievance that we denied them a home win that they were hoping for. 

Also somewhat ironic that Smith's own comments are criticising our players mixing it with theirs in that way, in complete agreement with those trying to use Blades' grievances as a stick to beat him with. 

Edited October 23, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

10 hours ago, Coneys Knee said:

But that’s the thing. Yesterday it backfired. It didn’t help us get the result, it cost us the result.

Yep, we are marginally better at football, we should stick to that. 

Edited October 23, 2022 by wcorkcanary

[norfolkngood 1,086]

9 hours ago, Canary Jedi said:

I’ve given Smith a lot of stick recently, but in his defence Smith was also not happy about our players getting involved in skirmishes because it allowed the home fans to wake up and get involved again. Time and a place, yesterday was neither. 

For me that is the worrying thing about it ! 

Smith was not happy so are the players not listening to him ?

if a manager tells everyone to cool it that is exactly what should happen not continue and do as you wish 

[nutty nigel 7,509]

3 hours ago, Branston Pickle said:

Tbh Sharp should have had 3 bookings at least.

 

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,017]

12 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

So just to recap, everybody else in the Championship can play as dirty as they like in the assurance that any disruption to our gameplay wil not be considered in the evaluation of the 'clueless clowns' at Norwich,, but if Norwich ever employs these tactics themselves then it's an absolute disgrace that brings shame on the county. 

Unbelievable. 

I get supporting your team, but blind loyalty is every bit as wrong as finding any stick possible to beat the team with. Whatever way you want to slice it we threw away a 2-0 lead, ergo the tactics employed in the second half were the wrong ones. As others have said to do it properly you need to be well drilled/organised and strong, we are neither and I say that as somebody who bloody well loves Norwich City..............

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

Just now, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

I get supporting your team, but blind loyalty is every bit as wrong as finding any stick possible to beat the team with. Whatever way you want to slice it we threw away a 2-0 lead, ergo the tactics employed in the second half were the wrong ones. As others have said to do it properly you need to be well drilled/organised and strong, we are neither and I say that as somebody who bloody well loves Norwich City..............

This has been triggered by indignant accusations from Sheffield United supporters after the game. I just don't think they're complaining about it from the point of view that it helped them claw back a point from us; more likely that they feel the behaviour stopped them getting all 3. 

[......and Smith must score. 1,335]

Well the away fans were quite happy with our s*it-housery if the ‘ Take your time Norwich ‘ song was anything to go by

[daly 500]

3 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

 

Bit worried about Sharps right hand and the smile on Hanleys face 

[canarybubbles 1,915]

I'd like to respond to some of the arguments in favour of the new sh*thousery.

Firstly, I'm not arguing against sh*thousery from some high moral stance; I'm arguing against it because we're rubbish at it and it's costing us, not benefitting us.

Subtle time-wasting is fine, as are necessary professional fouls to stop a breakaway by the other side. Regular fouling to break up their flow can also work, but you need to use a rapier rather than a sledgehammer or you're going to end up with ten men PDQ. And when you're winning there is always the danger that you will fire up the opposition and also their fans in away matches. Why risk it?

I do think something needs to be done against players feigning bad injury, though. This is vile IMO because one day someone will genuinely be severely injured and everyone will play on and that could even theoretically threaten the player's life. Personally I would be in favour of stopping the clock every time there is a break in play and having no added-on time, especially since how much is added on seems to be totally random from game to game.

Yes, we were naive in the PL, especially under Farke, and we struggled against teams who were more streetwise than us, particularly in his first season. But the answer is to become streetwise like them, not amateurishly thuggish.

Edited October 24, 2022 by canarybubbles

[Midlands Yellow 3,936]

17 hours ago, Captain Holt said:

Dean Smith could come round and roger your missus and you'd be there for him afterwards with a towel and a tray of biscuits.

Afterwards? He’d be stroking Dean’s hair as he was at it. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

23 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

No, you employ it to destabilise and disrupt your opposition's gameplan and try to prevent them playing the way they.want to. It's part of most team's game in the Championship, and we've had players out injured for long spells because of it. I would like teams to face us mindful of the fact that if they want to go down the road of dirty tricks, then we can go there too, so I'm wholly supportive of our players being willing to take the gloves off to try and get a result. 

It's also notable that the frequent occasions where it's used against us seems to inspire less outrage from our own support than accusations of it against us from Sheffield.

The tactic completely failed though.

We came out in the second half falling over every 30 seconds, timewasting and trying to get their players carded and threw away a two goal lead.

Its one thing defending a lead for 15 minutes like we did at Brammall Lane when we James Maddison scored and they were a lot higher in the table than us during our 'transition season', its another thing coming out for 45 mins + injury time with that defeatist load of nonsense.

As all the Sheffield United fans seemed to be saying, if we came out looking to kill the game with a third goal we'd probably have won it. No amount of Heckingbottom bollocking would have suddenly turned their slow and cumbersome centre backs into Virgin Van Djik, and Billy Sharp must be the wrong side of 35 now.

Did we really need to come out being that pathetic and negative? Just because Sheffield United had a strong 5 mins at the end of the first half? We basically decided to try to defend a 2-0 lead for 45 minutes, and then failed. 

In isolation a point away at Sheffield United is a decent and respectable result. The manner of our collapse is the second half was just depressing however.

Edited October 24, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

12 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

 

Another ref could have red carded Hanley for that needless kick.

Hanley would clearly deck him if they had a little roll around on the cobbles at the back of a pub though. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

22 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

What it boils down to is that we got a point away from home against a top half championship side who have also had Premier League money in their recent history who were very recently at the top of the table. 

They are also 23rd in the Championship form table.

We are 20th. 

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[canarybubbles 1,915]

I also suspect Dean Smith is being disingenuous when he criticises what the players did in the second half. We seemed to come out in that second half with the mission to waste time and to defend our lead by diving and fouling and it's hard to believe that happened spontaneously rather than on the instructions of the manager. I think this idea is strengthened by the fact that a lot of the diving centred around Giannoulis who was almost certainly going to be taken off after sixty minutes so it didn't matter if he picked up a yellow.

 

[hogesar 9,618]

12 hours ago, norfolkngood said:

For me that is the worrying thing about it ! 

Smith was not happy so are the players not listening to him ?

if a manager tells everyone to cool it that is exactly what should happen not continue and do as you wish 

I think there's very few managers in the game who could influence that from the sidelines. It's not like it hasn't happened under pretty much every manager we've ever had!

[nutty nigel 7,509]

37 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Another ref could have red carded Hanley for that needless kick.

Hanley would clearly deck him if they had a little roll around on the cobbles at the back of a pub though. 

I bet you'd have loved it if you'd been there TVB. Imagine being sat next to @BillySharpsCircus...

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

44 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

They are also 23rd in the Championship form table.

We are 20th. 

 

Yes, but we established in the nine-game unbeaten run that form doesn't mean anything. 

In fact, all in all, I think just about every quantitative measure of trying to predict performance was discredited, so all in all, probably best just relax and see what happens. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I agree we should be pressuring the ref more. Its up to him then if he doesn't like or can't handle the pressure. But for us to reduce ourselves to falling on the floor in apparent pain when never touched is appalling and could even lead to a booking or sending off for simulation.

I think virtually everyone, and even the pundits Saturday evening, thought we got suckered in. Instead of what was becoming an end to end game, it stuttered with set pieces and stoppages.

[shefcanary 2,385]

WTF did Hanley go all Barclay Boot Boy with Sharp? Extremely poor judgement from Hanley, he deserves to lose the captaincy over it - give it to Hayden!

At that point in the game we were winning 2 zip, Sharp was heading away from goal, so lying on the ball would have wasted the Blades time. Hayden should have just corralled Sharp there and allowed him to waste time. It would have been a pretty simple matter of kicking the ball against Sharp as he got up to win a goal kick where Gunn could have taken more of the sting out of the Blades.

It certainly didn't require Hanley winding Sharp, and hence the Bramall Lane crowd up and out their slumbers. Hanley's lack of judgement is beginning to cost us big time now, as a captain he is totally unreliable.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

There was one with Cantwell where he went over like he’d been shot but hadn’t been touched it was embarrassing. 

Game management under serious managers is just keeping the ball away from the opposition. this was just up diving around on the floor. Nothing short of pathetic.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

They are also 23rd in the Championship form table.

We are 20th. 

 

This is the most open but also the worst quality championship I’ve seen in many years. Anyone who goes up who doesn’t invest big time will get hammered and be straight back