****The Official Lapps Match Thread ****

[corbs 147]

In the second half a knackered Hayden chased back and got the ball with a stretch and interception. I thought, now I haven’t seen much of that from any City players in recent times. Just a small positive in a sobering night. The early season assumptions and arrogance has dissolved, and I was guilty of that to, thinking we are only going to get better. Now I’m not so sure. 

[Barham Blitz 652]

1 hour ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

Aarons seems lost - teams just stop him going forwards - Bilic played a master stroke putting Sarr on him.

Did anyone see the post-match interview with Bilic ?  Now he doesn't have any sort of reputation as a tactical genius, but listening to him talk about the way he has set Watford up based on the players he has and how and why he decided how to best utilise Sarr against us just highlighted for me a clarity of thought and understanding that we just don't seem to have at the moment.

It may just be that Smith has these thoughts and just doesn't broadcast them to the nation after a game.  But if that is the case those they don't seem to be translating themselves into actions on the pitch ...

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,421]

16 minutes ago, Barham Blitz said:

Did anyone see the post-match interview with Bilic ?  Now he doesn't have any sort of reputation as a tactical genius, but listening to him talk about the way he has set Watford up based on the players he has and how and why he decided how to best utilise Sarr against us just highlighted for me a clarity of thought and understanding that we just don't seem to have at the moment.

 

I’m afraid I didn’t Barham as has long since switched off. Agree entirely with your point . 

[Ken Hairy 3,757]

58 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

I’m afraid I didn’t Barham as has long since switched off. Agree entirely with your point . 

Me too I literally stuck a film on the minute the whistle blew....... Film was **** too

[Mason 47 1,371]

Couple of thoughts now the dust has settled-

It's time to start making a choice between Sargent and Pukki. It will be harsh on one or t'other for differing reasons, but it's necessary. We don't get enough of the play without the extra technical operator, but we can't hold the midfield enough with Nunez/ Ramsey/ Cantwell/ Dowell etc as a central midfielder

I like Byram, think he's been fine, but teams are starting to directly target the left-foot imbalance (and whatever the **** happened for their first goal, as I was actually closer to Louza than he was). Left footer into left back, or wing backs.

Nunez needs a rest, the realities of the Championship slog are catching him up. Hayden looks good and it's time to find out if Sara has what takes.

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

10 minutes ago, Mason 47 said:

Couple of thoughts now the dust has settled-

It's time to start making a choice between Sargent and Pukki. It will be harsh on one or t'other for differing reasons, but it's necessary. We don't get enough of the play without the extra technical operator, but we can't hold the midfield enough with Nunez/ Ramsey/ Cantwell/ Dowell etc as a central midfielder

I like Byram, think he's been fine, but teams are starting to directly target the left-foot imbalance (and whatever the **** happened for their first goal, as I was actually closer to Louza than he was). Left footer into left back, or wing backs.

Nunez needs a rest, the realities of the Championship slog are catching him up. Hayden looks good and it's time to find out if Sara has what takes.

 

 Byram was out alongside Max for some reason. But Hanley should have spotted that and covered him.

[chicken 2,604]

9 hours ago, kirku said:

Huh?

This list of players certainly isn't "far higher calibre" when Neil had them in the Championship. It was an aging squad with many players past their best, and many on your list left:

• Mbokani - only played for us in the PL
• Redmond - sold in the summer
• Brady - sold in Jan
• Olsson - sold in Jan
• O'Neil - sold to Bristol (and past it)
• Naismith - disaster
• Klose - never recovered
• Mulumbu - past it
• Whittaker - just no
• Bassong - past it
• Jarvis - crocked

Our current squad is packed with full internationals and follows a previous season spend of well over £50m. One of Neil's statement signings was Yanic Wildschut...

 

On paper. I was reflecting on Farke and how he got lower calibre players to play better as a team than previous managers had gotten out of better squads.

It's not particularly wrong. We made an arguably better shot at staying in the premier league with that side. And just to emphasise some of your response and how it hasn't paid attention to the "on paper" aspect.

- Mulumbu is 35, right now. He's a year younger than Tettey. We signed him in 2015, when he was 28. In other words, when he should be at his peak. On paper he wasn't "past it".
- Whittaker was a solid right back. As much as some people scape goated him, he did a good job for us. Either way, on paper, he was a Scottish international and had played in a decent Rangers side that had played European football.
- Bassong, again, is now 36, he was released in 2017 aged 30. Hardly "past it". Especially when you compare him to the ages of players in our squad.

Olsson was signed by Hughton, he may have played several seasons and was then sold, still better on paper and tbh, I would take the Olsson we had now over both of our left backs. Same could be said of Brady.

That's the point I was making. People continue to make out we have the best squad etc in this division. The same people who have said that Hanley is L1 at best - for example, now say we have the best squad in the league and should be dominating every game and winning "like Farke did". In other words, lying.

It's deliberate, as I have said before, to try and polarise. Agree or be told your a muppet and think there is nothing wrong. That is the stance. And it's tosh.

There isn't anyone that thinks it's perfect at the moment, but then the realistic people know it wasn't always perfect before either, sometimes you take a little of the rough with the smooth. How long did it take Farke to overcome that unenviable record of never having come from behind to win at one point?

Many views on here are what I would call "unreasonable" as a result, they're not balanced. They're 75% histrionics and hyperbole minimum.

Smith is being asked to replicate Farke by some fans, he's not Farke, no one is Farke, it was always going to be a bit different. Even if we pretend that is what he is trying to do, he doesn't have the squad Farke did it with, those that have remained are generally older. Rather than being "past it" 28yr olds, they are McGovern 38, Krul 34, Pukki 32, Hanley & McLean 30, Hernandez & Byram 29, - all the players left from more than a couple of seasons ago with only Idah 21, Aarons 22 and Cantwell 24, being around as long and younger.

There are arguments for Hugill 30, Gibson 29, Giannoulis 26 (27 tomorrow), Dowell 25 and Sorensen 24 as they were part of the last promotion squad.

So when you talk about aging/past it with players in their late 20's or early 30's that's where we're at now. This squad is in transition. Smith and Webber have addressed the centre of midfield this season. We'll need some work on the centre of our defence and wide players come the summer.

Whether it's liked or not, this isn't the best squad we have had at this level or higher and is arguably the worse, player for player. We weren't a better side than Watford last season and nothing has happened since to convince me that had changed much. Burnley finished higher than us and again, are a well drilled side. It's probably a managers dream to walk into a club where they are solid defensively and the main work to be done is on progressive play.

When Smith walked into this club, where does he start? About the only place on the pitch that he didn't have to worry too much about was up front, and Pukki wasn't getting much joy from our midfield so that pretty much cancelled his efforts out of the game.

[kirku 1,332]

4 minutes ago, chicken said:

Whether it's liked or not, this isn't the best squad we have had at this level or higher and is arguably the worse, player for player. 

"Past it" is not as simple as quoting ages. Wes was probably 34/5 that season and was still useful. Bassong, to my knowledge, never played professionally again. Mulumbu went to Scotland.

As for the quote, I can't imagine thinking that the trajectory of the club is fine whist calling this squad "arguably the worse (at this level)" following £60m+ of PL player recruitment and two Championship titles in a row.

[chicken 2,604]

3 hours ago, kirku said:

"Past it" is not as simple as quoting ages. Wes was probably 34/5 that season and was still useful. Bassong, to my knowledge, never played professionally again. Mulumbu went to Scotland.

As for the quote, I can't imagine thinking that the trajectory of the club is fine whist calling this squad "arguably the worse (at this level)" following £60m+ of PL player recruitment and two Championship titles in a row.

Net spend though?

Not to mention Rashica and Tzolis have both left on loan, so around £18m worth of players there. Normann, Kabak, Gilmour returned to sender. Our starting line up on Saturday?

Gunn - £5m
Byram - £750k
Hanley - £3m
Omobamidele - free
Aarons - free
McLean - £200k
Gibbs - undisclosed compensation
Nunez - £3m (ish depending on value of £/Euro at the time)
Sargent - £8m
Dowell - Undisclosed (part of a £6.1m spend that brought Hugill and loans of Skipp, Gibson and Quintilla - lets say £1.5m)
Pukki - free

Subs: Hugill £5m (£3m that rose to £5m after promotion), Gibson £8m, Hayden loan, Cantwell free, Sara £6m (rising to £10-11m upon various triggers), Ramsey loan, Hernandez £1.5m(ish).

Rough total: £40-43m.
Realistically, to come back in to that starting 11 would be Giannoulis who's about £6m. That's it.

Sara cost Watford £30m, Louza was £6.6m, Sema rumoured £1m, Asprilla £2.5m, Troost-Ekong £4m - and there you have 5 players alone who cost as much as our match day squad on Saturday. Bachman was around £5m, Cathcart and Gosling were freebies I believe. Choudhury, Kamara and Davis are all on loan. Pedro was around £2m if rumours are to be believed, Kalu £3m(ish), Bayo £5m, Pollock £250k, Okoye £5m, Kayembe £1.5m, Morris free - signed after a trial having been released by Southampton.

So conservatively, over £60m for Watford.

There's literally no point valuing players no longer with us. Nor can you always rely on a value paid for a player makes them better than a player that cost less, or even that they will adapt to the English game.

[Canaries north 151]

26 minutes ago, chicken said:

Net spend though?

Not to mention Rashica and Tzolis have both left on loan, so around £18m worth of players there. Normann, Kabak, Gilmour returned to sender. Our starting line up on Saturday?

Gunn - £5m
Byram - £750k
Hanley - £3m
Omobamidele - free
Aarons - free
McLean - £200k
Gibbs - undisclosed compensation
Nunez - £3m (ish depending on value of £/Euro at the time)
Sargent - £8m
Dowell - Undisclosed (part of a £6.1m spend that brought Hugill and loans of Skipp, Gibson and Quintilla - lets say £1.5m)
Pukki - free

Subs: Hugill £5m (£3m that rose to £5m after promotion), Gibson £8m, Hayden loan, Cantwell free, Sara £6m (rising to £10-11m upon various triggers), Ramsey loan, Hernandez £1.5m(ish).

Rough total: £40-43m.
Realistically, to come back in to that starting 11 would be Giannoulis who's about £6m. That's it.

Sara cost Watford £30m, Louza was £6.6m, Sema rumoured £1m, Asprilla £2.5m, Troost-Ekong £4m - and there you have 5 players alone who cost as much as our match day squad on Saturday. Bachman was around £5m, Cathcart and Gosling were freebies I believe. Choudhury, Kamara and Davis are all on loan. Pedro was around £2m if rumours are to be believed, Kalu £3m(ish), Bayo £5m, Pollock £250k, Okoye £5m, Kayembe £1.5m, Morris free - signed after a trial having been released by Southampton.

So conservatively, over £60m for Watford.

There's literally no point valuing players no longer with us. Nor can you always rely on a value paid for a player makes them better than a player that cost less, or even that they will adapt to the English game.

I know this is not the point you are making but just looking at the players mentioned Watford turned down about 55 million for Sarr and Pedro this summer. I can only see omobamidele and Aaron's as players with a decent resale at the moment and Aaron's price must be dropping. At least Sargent is starting to look like the price we brought him for and I never thought I would say that. My guess is if Watford sold the whole of their team they would have made an ok profit but our team would probably have lost value. Even more so if you take out the youth team products. A club of our side should surely rely on youth coming through and some player trading to top up the accounts. I can only think of Buendia recently in the brought and sold for good profit bracket but I'm probably missing a lot of players. 

[Budapest Canary 152]

On 15/10/2022 at 21:45, GodlyOtsemobor said:

" Right lads, if we all dress up as Sarge they won't know which one to mark " 

Funny that. I recognise that goach-guy: He's Peter Stöger the ex-head coach of Ferencváros (with FC Köln on the photo). He had had some success with Köln, gained promotion with them and established them in Bundesliga 1, but was less successful with Fradi: was sacked after six months and a lackluster  Europa Cup run. 

[hogesar 9,611]

On 16/10/2022 at 11:02, Barham Blitz said:

Did anyone see the post-match interview with Bilic ?  Now he doesn't have any sort of reputation as a tactical genius, but listening to him talk about the way he has set Watford up based on the players he has and how and why he decided how to best utilise Sarr against us just highlighted for me a clarity of thought and understanding that we just don't seem to have at the moment.

It may just be that Smith has these thoughts and just doesn't broadcast them to the nation after a game.  But if that is the case those they don't seem to be translating themselves into actions on the pitch ...

Surprised he hasn't won more games then...

[Barham Blitz 652]

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Surprised he hasn't won more games then...

Indeed.  Maybe that approach just works against us then.

[chicken 2,604]

I thought we disliked Smith because we couldn't warm to him?

Bilic... has to be one of football's more unlikeable characters. Whingey, moany and, I suppose for me this is the crux of it, a cheat as a player. Feigning being clobbered in the head to get Laurent Blanc sent off to miss the final of the world cup in France, as the French Captain.

Should've introduced a double jeopardy rule at that point... you get sent off and proved innocent, you get to do what it is you were sent off for... 

[kirku 1,332]

17 hours ago, chicken said:

So conservatively, over £60m for Watford.

Watford is irrelevant (despite the only difference between the sides "valuation" being Sarr) - the point I was making is that you've been defending the trajectory of the club over the past few weeks, despite a record transfer spend leaving the squad, in your own words, "arguably the worse (at this level)".

I can't fathom being happy with that. 

Edited October 17, 2022 by kirku

[chicken 2,604]

1 hour ago, kirku said:

Watford is irrelevant (despite the only difference between the sides "valuation" being Sarr) - the point I was making is that you've been defending the trajectory of the club over the past few weeks, despite a record transfer spend leaving the squad, in your own words, "arguably the worse (at this level)".

I can't fathom being happy with that. 

And this is exactly the issue I have been underlining elsewhere. Why, because I don't agree with you, do I have to be "happy"?

I understand where we are at, I understand how we come to be where we are at, if you look back at last summer I was happy with the types of players being brought in. It looked 'on paper' like we were addressing the issues.

Where, perhaps, I differ is I don't see why issues created during that transfer window are Smith's fault. I also don't think it's purely down to those signings. I suspect, though don't know for sure, that some were not intended to come in and be instant regulars. That is at least what was said of Tzolis and how Sargent was treated by Farke. I questioned why, when we had money, we were signing for the future and not for the now. That's out there too, but from towards the end of Farke's tenure.

Smith has only really had one transfer window to make this team his own, whilst also with the expectation that we bounce back straight away. We also now know he is working under stricter financial constraints, despite the spend in the summer, which adds to that pressure. I would say that puts winning ahead of looking pretty all of the time.

The main criticism of Smith has been that we don't play Farke-ball, that people don't 'feel' a connection with him on a personal level, that people can't see a style or approach to our football. All of this was evidence less and moot until Preston, where despite the same people saying it featured arguably some of our best football this season, it proved that other results were 'papering over the cracks'. The cracks being those not "feeling it" and a lack of being clearly dominating visually - the stats told a different story but apparently not the one wanted to be seen.

Then again, I also understand how having only one left footed player in the starting line up can impact on the way a team wants to play. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

23 minutes ago, chicken said:

And this is exactly the issue I have been underlining elsewhere. Why, because I don't agree with you, do I have to be "happy"?

I understand where we are at, I understand how we come to be where we are at, if you look back at last summer I was happy with the types of players being brought in. It looked 'on paper' like we were addressing the issues.

Where, perhaps, I differ is I don't see why issues created during that transfer window are Smith's fault. I also don't think it's purely down to those signings. I suspect, though don't know for sure, that some were not intended to come in and be instant regulars. That is at least what was said of Tzolis and how Sargent was treated by Farke. I questioned why, when we had money, we were signing for the future and not for the now. That's out there too, but from towards the end of Farke's tenure.

Smith has only really had one transfer window to make this team his own, whilst also with the expectation that we bounce back straight away. We also now know he is working under stricter financial constraints, despite the spend in the summer, which adds to that pressure. I would say that puts winning ahead of looking pretty all of the time.

The main criticism of Smith has been that we don't play Farke-ball, that people don't 'feel' a connection with him on a personal level, that people can't see a style or approach to our football. All of this was evidence less and moot until Preston, where despite the same people saying it featured arguably some of our best football this season, it proved that other results were 'papering over the cracks'. The cracks being those not "feeling it" and a lack of being clearly dominating visually - the stats told a different story but apparently not the one wanted to be seen.

Then again, I also understand how having only one left footed player in the starting line up can impact on the way a team wants to play. 

Sorry Chicken but I don't always go along with the thought that a coach wants his own team before he does anything good. Why would Deano apply for the job, tell the board he won't be doing that well for at least two or three transfer windows because the players at his disposal aren't what he wants? He couldn't wait to get the job and tell the players, many of whom have played for different managers using different styles, that they aren't really his type of player?

I'm happy to listen to reasonable excuses such as injury or suspensions. I am not happy to hear that we have such a poor coach, he can't get this squad to play the way he wants.

 

[Worthy Nigelton 1,037]

On 15/10/2022 at 20:21, Michael Starr said:

Pukki is cack. Get Sarg in the middle FFS just do it already!

......

[chicken 2,604]

On 17/10/2022 at 18:08, keelansgrandad said:

Sorry Chicken but I don't always go along with the thought that a coach wants his own team before he does anything good. Why would Deano apply for the job, tell the board he won't be doing that well for at least two or three transfer windows because the players at his disposal aren't what he wants? He couldn't wait to get the job and tell the players, many of whom have played for different managers using different styles, that they aren't really his type of player?

I'm happy to listen to reasonable excuses such as injury or suspensions. I am not happy to hear that we have such a poor coach, he can't get this squad to play the way he wants.

 

Not what I've said old bean.

However, managers tend to do better when they can bring in players that reflect the way they want the team to play, or that can be pivotal to how the team plays.

Farke brought in a fair number of players in his first summer. Enough to start to shape our squad and how we play. As well as youngsters who you can mould to the way you want to play. Especially if you have the likes of Aarons and Lewis who are attacking fullbacks and that's what you want.

In fact, Farke's first season is a brilliant example, you could see some players trying to do what he wanted, in the likes of Maddison, others were just not capable of adapting and the reason it looked very disjointed and at times very poor.

I'm not saying it is the "only" issues, but it certainly is a contributing factor. 

[Ken Hairy 3,757]

Cantwell going for an Oscar there