Wing Backs are the Problem!

[Michael Starr 519]

We have an unnatural square peg in a round hole player on the left and Aarons, for me, is just not getting forward enough. He'll receive the ball and then either pass it back inside along the line or go back to the keeper. I think the wing backs are just not good enough right now. So in the case of Reading away... neither wing back really pushed forward and against teams who go full block, we just can't get through. It gets too compact in the middle and Pukki isn't able to then do his runs. So how do we fix this?

We need to get a proper wing back on the left side back into the squad... I know that's an injury thing and not a dig on Byram at all as I like him as a player. We need to get Aarons way further up the pitch. These two things alone will help us hugely. It may be the case that our wing backs will be able to move forward once we get more midfield defensive cover. I just feel that the injuries are really holding us back.

I'd like to see Pukki and Sarg rotated now. Sarg isn't a winger and if he's not a 9 then he shouldn't start. We have natural wingers in the squad that should start in their natural positions. I'd like to see Pukki play when we have space on the ball and I'd like to see Sarg start when we face teams who stick men behind the ball and compress. With Pukki we can pack the midfield and play those through balls. With Sarg, we push the wing backs forward and look to float balls into the box. It's that simple.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Michael Starr

[Yellow Fever 3,747]

11 minutes ago, Michael Starr said:

We have an unnatural square peg in a round hole player on the left and Aarons, for me, is just not getting forward enough. He'll receive the ball and then either pass it back inside along the line or go back to the keeper. I think the wing backs are just not good enough right now. So in the case of Reading away... neither wing back really pushed forward and against teams who go full block, we just can't get through. It gets too compact in the middle and Pukki isn't able to then do his runs. So how do we fix this?

We need to get a proper wing back on the left side back into the squad... I know that's an injury thing and not a dig on Byram at all as I like him as a player. We need to get Aarons way further up the pitch. These two things alone will help us hugely. It may be the case that our wing backs will be able to move forward once we get more midfield defensive cover. I just feel that the injuries are really holding us back.

I'd like to see Pukki and Sarg rotated now. Sarg isn't a winger and if he's not a 9 then he shouldn't start. We have natural wingers in the squad that should start in their natural positions. I'd like to see Pukki play when we have space on the ball and I'd like to see Sarg start when we face teams who stick men behind the ball and compress. With Pukki we can pack the midfield and play those through balls. With Sarg, we push the wing backs forward and look to float balls into the box. It's that simple.

Agree with a lot of this - I think its Pukki or Sarge as CF (not Sarge on the wing - largely wasted) and Aarons needs to cross earlier - but that then means Sarge for crosses. 

In many ways I see see many similarities with what happened last season! 

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

11 minutes ago, Michael Starr said:

We have an unnatural square peg in a round hole player on the left and Aarons, for me, is just not getting forward enough. He'll receive the ball and then either pass it back inside along the line or go back to the keeper. I think the wing backs are just not good enough right now. So in the case of Reading away... neither wing back really pushed forward and against teams who go full block, we just can't get through. It gets too compact in the middle and Pukki isn't able to then do his runs. So how do we fix this?

We need to get a proper wing back on the left side back into the squad... I know that's an injury thing and not a dig on Byram at all as I like him as a player. We need to get Aarons way further up the pitch. These two things alone will help us hugely. It may be the case that our wing backs will be able to move forward once we get more midfield defensive cover. I just feel that the injuries are really holding us back.

I'd like to see Pukki and Sarg rotated now. Sarg isn't a winger and if he's not a 9 then he shouldn't start. We have natural wingers in the squad that should start in their natural positions. I'd like to see Pukki play when we have space on the ball and I'd like to see Sarg start when we face teams who stick men behind the ball and compress. With Pukki we can pack the midfield and play those through balls. With Sarg, we push the wing backs forward and look to float balls into the box. It's that simple.

Key bit's in bold, and why I think the original premise is a bit out - the root problem is the midfield balance and the wing-backs are impaired due to it. Sure, Byram is out of position but even a Lungi would have gone up a bit more often. I'd actually agree with those thinking Aarons looks a little bit overplayed and in need of a rest, but we can't put Byram there as his replacement as he's filling in a hole on the left.

With a solid defensive midfielder in there (and ideally a couple of others who are genuinely box-to-box), that enables wing-backs to get up and down and widen the pitch when in possession.

[jaberry2 550]

MA was unable to go forward due to lack of cover in front of him in Sargeant and was probably the plan, which he clearly stuck to. Byrams defending / blocking was pretty woeful last night, albeit his seems to be getting much sharper and looks quite comfortable now on the ball and contributes in other ways. It will be interesting to know whether Dimi will dislodge him or not. The latter has had much luck this season but has generally looked pretty poor as well.

[Newtopia 517]

50 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Key bit's in bold, and why I think the original premise is a bit out - the root problem is the midfield balance and the wing-backs are impaired due to it. Sure, Byram is out of position but even a Lungi would have gone up a bit more often. I'd actually agree with those thinking Aarons looks a little bit overplayed and in need of a rest, but we can't put Byram there as his replacement as he's filling in a hole on the left.

With a solid defensive midfielder in there (and ideally a couple of others who are genuinely box-to-box), that enables wing-backs to get up and down and widen the pitch when in possession.

A proper CDM, or 2, would definitely help balance the side.  I really think 4 3 3 leaves the fullbacks exposed, it is hard to be cavalier if the opponents a tricky skilful player with limited defensive responsibilities.

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

1 minute ago, Newtopia said:

A proper CDM, or 2, would definitely help balance the side.  I really think 4 3 3 leaves the fullbacks exposed, it is hard to be cavalier if the opponents a tricky skilful player with limited defensive responsibilities.

4-3-3 leaves the full backs exposed if the attacking players on the sides of that 3 don't track back. In my opinion, the ideal 4-3-3 in possession should retract to a 4-5-1 without it.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I think that the shape has to be supported before we see Max at his best. Hopefully with Gibbs back the cover will allow him to get forward more. He does look a bit of a lost soul at the moment. Neither attacking or defending.

[Richard Richard 186]

Such is the difference in performance levels (compared to previous seasons) with Aarons that I can only assume he's doing as directed by DS. The frequency of back and side passing is frustrating and I can't see that he's simply stopped bombing forward because he's either tired or out of form.

[king canary 7,578]

This is why I'd love to see us give a back 3 a go when Dimi is back fit- free up Aarons and him to get forward, let Sargent play closer to Pukki and narrower and reduce some of the defensive burden on the central midfield.  

[Bonzo 198]

It is difficult to criticise a player like Aarons without knowing what the instructions are from his manager.

I personally would like to see him back himself and attack the space behind his opposing full back and run at defenders more often when we have possession in the opposition third.

Byram is a different type of player who has to work his way forward rather than rely on speed. 

Max however has the talent to cause mayhem in the attacking third but seems to be playing within himself by playing for pass completion and ball retention and more often than not taking the safe option which in the defensive areas is certainly what is required.

Taking on players means that he will lose possession more often than he does and this is why he needs his manager to back him in this. 

In the attacking third Max has all the raw ingredients to cause a lot more mayhem than he does. Unleashing this aspect of his game is down to his manager. 

Most spectators here would like to see him pin his ears back and bet on himself a bit more in the final third. If he loses the ball a couple of times but creates a goal scoring chance then that is a bet worth making IMHO. 

 

 

 

[pete 318]

What is all this nonsence about wing backs.  We played with flat back 4 not with wing backs.  Max in the first half was unadventurous, but in second broke forward more and created interesting positions.  Obviously followed Smith's instructions in second half with rest of team.  Byram at LFB  not LWB was merely competent.  If we go 3 at the back WB's could be used and Dimi could operate on left until we do Byram looks a berref defensive option.  Hoilett gave Byram kittens but not helped by Ramsey failing to give him any assistance.  We will see how the LB conundrum is revealed soon enough when they come up against the classy Sarr at Watford. 

[rock bus 850]

I definitely think there is something in this and some good points made.

I'm a big fan of Byram but thought he was very poor last night. Unfortunately I think that Aarons is continuing to go backwards (both in terms of his performance levels and actually literally!). He is being exposed defensively, especially by bigger and stronger players, and not offering the same sort of threat going forward. I am sure this is at least partly due to Smiths tactics to keep things tighter. But that probably means that Aarons isnt the type of full back we need. We miss Dimi's left foot so when he is fit I'd be tempted to move Byram to the right and drop Aarons.

Also agree that it is a waste having Sargent on right - doesnt suit him and means we are missing an outlet to attack teams and move the ball forward. Smith needs to be brave and alternate between Sargent or Pukki or find a way of playing both centrally (I'd give a go of having Pukkis as no10 behind Sargent)

[shefcanary 2,385]

Deano is playing a 4-3-3, so we don't play wing backs, although we have potentially attacking full backs!

Aside from that is the OP advocating a 3-5-2? So Hanley/Omo/Gibson the three, Aarons/Gibbs/Nunez/Sara/Dimi the midfield and Pukki/Sargent up top? Might be worth a try?

[Robert N. LiM 4,241]

1 minute ago, shefcanary said:

Aside from that is the OP advocating a 3-5-2? So Hanley/Omo/Gibson the three, Aarons/Gibbs/Nunez/Sara/Dimi the midfield and Pukki/Sargent up top? Might be worth a try?

I think that is probably the best way of getting most of our best players in the team without playing any of them out of position. Exception is Todd - difficult to see how he fits in a 352

[chicken 2,604]

6 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Deano is playing a 4-3-3, so we don't play wing backs, although we have potentially attacking full backs!

Aside from that is the OP advocating a 3-5-2? So Hanley/Omo/Gibson the three, Aarons/Gibbs/Nunez/Sara/Dimi the midfield and Pukki/Sargent up top? Might be worth a try?

I was going to say this.

We don't currently utilise wing backs. That would be a 5-4-1 or a 3-5-2.

In a sense, full backs can be afforded for lisence to get forward in a 4-2-3-1, 4-1-4-1or a diamond midfield but the same could be said of a 4-4-2 depending uoon how much the approach is wanting the full backs to provide width.

 

[Bovril 219]

Aarons has been instructed to stay more defensively minded and not to cross the half-way line anywhere near as much as he did under Farke. This has been confirmed by Aarons himself, where he has stated he has been told to stay more defensively disciplined (although I typically can't find the quote at time of typing). This is clearly visible in matches where he will often literally run to the half-way line before stopping and making a safe pass. 

This makes sense in the Premier League but in this division he should be bombing forward as much as possible due to the severe difference in attacking ability of the opposition in the two leagues. 

Aarons not attacking as much (and with Byram naturally a defensive full-back) it leads to a lack of coherency in our attack, often leading to Mclean lumping it up forward in the general direction of Pukki with Pukki unable to hold the ball up.

It's a real mish-mash of tactics and players utilised which leads to the performances we have seen. Smith always has good press conferences, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of his post-match analysis too, which is why it's bizarre he can't see the obvious changes. Play either Pukki or Sargent (not both) centrally and then match your tactics suitably to whoever is chosen. 

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

1 hour ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I think that is probably the best way of getting most of our best players in the team without playing any of them out of position. Exception is Todd - difficult to see how he fits in a 352

3-4-1-2 might work with Todd (in fact, there may be an argument for Dowell and Sinani too) - put him in the hole behind the two up top and give him absolutely carte blanche.

Edited October 5, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[Robert N. LiM 4,241]

4 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

3-4-1-2 might work with Todd (in fact, there may be an argument for Dowell and Sinani too) - put him in the hole behind the two up top and give him absolutely carte blanche.

Yes, and Ramsey

[TheGunnShow 5,932]

2 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Yes, and Ramsey

Yeah, fair point.

[canarybubbles 1,915]

5 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Yes, and Ramsey

It wasn't only Sargent who looked unsuited to the wing last night. So did Ramsey. He was much, much poorer than in games where he plays more centrally.

We seem to be wasting three players (add Pukki to the other two) just to keep with 4-3-3.

Edited October 5, 2022 by canarybubbles

[Nexus_Canary 1,016]

In summary for those that don't want to read all of this dribble.

Kenny is the current scape goat but we want to replace him with max Aaron's.

 

 

 

The lot of you behave with Aaron's he's quality and has been by far one of our top performers with the exception of last season when he had a blip 

[vos 155]

Max is being wasted. Once again he had acres of space against mediocre opposition but continually stopped in his own half and played the ball back to either Hanley or Krul. At the very least he should be finding an attacking player in space. I find it difficult to believe that our experienced coaches cannot spot this problem and do something about it.

Max has made very little progress over the past 2/3 years and his lack of height obviously deters prospective purchases looking for a player with solid defensive qualities.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

This frustrates me a bit too but it could we'll be that Smith doesn't want the full backs to attack as much as we have been used to. He could point to 24 points from 12 games as an answer to the criticism.

In this strange season where we are doing so well in the league but there's only moaning on here, one of the usual gripes about us collapsing under pressure or having a soft centre has been conspicuous by its absence.

 

[yellowrider120 761]

39 minutes ago, vos said:

Max is being wasted played the ball back to either Hanle. Once again he had acres of space against mediocre opposition but continually stopped in his own half andy or Krul. At the very least he should be finding an attacking player in space. I find it difficult to believe that our experienced coaches cannot spot this problem and do something about it.

Max has made very little progress over the past 2/3 years and his lack of height obviously deters prospective purchases looking for a player with solid defensive qualities.

Totally agree. Not sure if the 'tactics or coaching' are responsible for this (and there is no doubt that Smith is a much more 'pragmatic' manager than the previous incumbent) and / or whether Aarons is now 'blown out'. To me he seems a pale shadow of the exciting, attacking fullback of two - three years back. To be fair, he has played almost every minute of every league game for over four seasons and that has taken it's toll. Will be very interesting to see how he looks after the World Cup break.

[paddycanary 538]

Perhaps Deano is outsmarting us all with one eye on an immediate return to the Prem and is gradually instilling the tactics he (& Shakey) deem necessary to compete at that level? Perhaps!

I think the flexibility of options is hamstrung by the CM/CDM & LB injuries. We don't seem to be able to dominate in the engine room for extended periods. If central/deep midfield is our soft spot, 3 at the back does seem like one way to alleviate this, while releasing the full backs and allowing Sargent to play more centrally. I can't recall 3 CBs being utilised as our primary formation for extended periods for a long time (if ever?). Tinkered & experimented with sure, but for 10/15 matches? I remember Ian Culverhouse as a sweeper, not really 3 CBs though.

With the players currently fit and available , what about something like:

                                     Krul

            Omobamidele     Hanley     Byram

Aarons     Nunez     Gibbs     Ramsey     McLean

                          Sargent     Pukki

Formation can easily be altered in-game if necessary, and leaves lots of bench options with Gibson, Onel, Dowell, Sara, Cantwell(?), Sinani, Hugill...

Does leave things a bit thin on back-up through the spine though. No Dimi, Lungi, the lesser-spotted Hayden, no Idah. It's a shame that Rowe & Springett aren't getting their chance to make their mark this year and it looks like Tomkinson isn't quite there yet.

There might be some interesting wheeling & dealing to be done in January, particularly if Hayden is returned to sender. Hopefully we're still averaging around the 2 points per game as this will of course help to attract decent players who fancy a crack at the top flight. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

2 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

This frustrates me a bit too but it could we'll be that Smith doesn't want the full backs to attack as much as we have been used to. He could point to 24 points from 12 games as an answer to the criticism.

In this strange season where we are doing so well in the league but there's only moaning on here, one of the usual gripes about us collapsing under pressure or having a soft centre has been conspicuous by its absence.

 

To be fair, I can't see how anyone can be that effective on the wings without either fit left backs or holding midfielders to help shore up central defence to let the wing backs get further up the pitch. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,510]

6 hours ago, Bovril said:

Aarons has been instructed to stay more defensively minded and not to cross the half-way line anywhere near as much as he did under Farke. This has been confirmed by Aarons himself, where he has stated he has been told to stay more defensively disciplined (although I typically can't find the quote at time of typing). This is clearly visible in matches where he will often literally run to the half-way line before stopping and making a safe pass. 

This makes sense in the Premier League but in this division he should be bombing forward as much as possible due to the severe difference in attacking ability of the opposition in the two leagues. 

 

I think you've nailed what we're seeing this season: a squad being drilled on how they'll need to behave to survive in the Premier League. When you think about it, if we do use Aarons in the fashion we're used to for attack, then that's going to have a domino effect on the habits of players further up the pitch, which is going to be a disruption to our attacking play in the Premier League when he can't do it or we'll finish up punished if he tries it. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Barham Blitz 652]

Let's knock this one on the head from the outset.  You can't play two attacking full backs / wing backs if one of them is a defensively minded right footed player at left back without a defensively minded proper CDM who can slot back into a centre back role with some comfort.  So without Dimi it wouldn't offer much attacking threat down the left anyway and without Hayden in a 4-3-3 it would be positional suicide.  Or without Dimi and Hayden (or at a push Lungi centrally but who isn't mobile enough really) in a 3-5-2 or similar.

It was noticeable yesterday that Aarons was pushed on in the second half to provide the overload on that flank but that Byram sat more tucked in (which he can do to some extent) in more of a lopsided 3-4-3   But the reverse was not true when we were attacking from the left and without that CDM we leave massive space to be exploited on the counter even then.  Our current CM options don't offer enough positional nous or physical ability to counter it.

In a 4-3-3 the width has to come from the two wide forwards.  Aarons can't be one of the back 3 if the left back is bombing on due to his physical limitations so we would need the more physical 'Haydenesque' CDM to drop in or at least be sat right in front of the centre backs if we are asking him and / or Dimi to offer a forward option.

You only have to look at the criticisms levelled at TAA to see the perils of an attacking fullback in a 4-3-3 even with the fact that Aarons doesn't offer the same threat as TAA and Liverpool both press higher and more effectively than we seem able to, consequently dominating possession more effectively with their higher quality of player.  At least when they are playing well.

Now the question off whether 4-3-3 is the best method of maximising the effect of the players that we have is another question entirely, but not one that the club seem prepared to ask themselves these days ...

[Barham Blitz 652]

14 hours ago, pete said:

What is all this nonsence about wing backs.  We played with flat back 4 not with wing backs.  Max in the first half was unadventurous, but in second broke forward more and created interesting positions.  Obviously followed Smith's instructions in second half with rest of team.  Byram at LFB  not LWB was merely competent.  If we go 3 at the back WB's could be used and Dimi could operate on left until we do Byram looks a berref defensive option.  Hoilett gave Byram kittens but not helped by Ramsey failing to give him any assistance.  We will see how the LB conundrum is revealed soon enough when they come up against the classy Sarr at Watford. 

First half I thought that there was almost a case for switching the full backs as it was evident that Reading put the fast tricky winger against Byram  and tried to isolate Aarons against Carroll both with some success.