Will Jennings...what a plum!

[lake district canary 4,531]

I don't take to Smith the way I took to Farke - he just does not have the charisma that DF did. That said, the main thing is results - and if Smith delivers then that is all that matters. As for the b*ll*x Jennings writes (and @TeemuVanBasten too 😉) DF's treatment of players who tried to be "individuals" in what he always said had to be a collective, was quite in line with his policy that he stated on day one of his arrival in Norwich - it was all about the group and if you stepped out of line you would be left out of it.

Smith undoubtedly goes about things in a different way - different, not better or worse - and as I said results are all that matters, but there is no doubt that Farke will remain one of our most pooplular managers ever......I mean can you imagine people going out and buying a bobble head doll of Dean Smith? I can't and that is his main problem - he isn't Daniel Farke. 

I would have kept DF, absolutely, Smith made little overall difference in the end - and that confirms what others have said - it was not so much the manager as the recruitment - and for that you can blame (if you have to blame someone) Webber for not sourcing better players and the club itself for not having the money to buy what Daniel needed.

But even having said that, of the two main signings Sargent has settled in and functioning well and Tzolis could still be of huge value to us later on.....and we are doing well near the top of the league - and we know we can play better, so all is good.

 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

13 hours ago, Tony DaWonderful said:

Absolute drivel!

LETS GET THIS STRAIGHT RIGHT NOW...

Farkeball failed for one reason, poor recruitment!!! Where have you bothered to mention that in your 'Smith love in' post.

Just bleating on about how it failed in the Prem twice. Anyone managing that team couldn't of successfully avoided relegation and I don't believe 'Mr Dour' did, did he? He took us down with 3/4 of the season left. With 1 more point. We purchased poorly and paid the price. Sure Farke may have had some say, but we'd all want Messi and Haaland if we could of afforded it.

So yeah I will enjoy winning with my 'Green Yellow army', but don't gloss over the fact we have looked disjointed and don't think for one moment it's a given that it'll get better or just click.

So I suggest maybe focusing your writing efforts on why we don't share the love that you do with 'Deano' and why can't we look back and wish it ended better for both parties with Daniel.

So NO I for one wont forget about the style of play, the passion, the noise and most importantly the connection we felt with and for Farke concerning this club. He is something Smith never can or will be!

OTBC

 

Agreed, we played miles better football under Farke. I also feel like the connection between team and fans has also been diminished since his departure. 
 

I’ve never been more bored while watching a 3-2 win that Wednesday night 

[duke63 541]

Buendia was a massive part of Farke's success.

When Emi struggled or was missing then the team struggled.

 

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

This thread is demonstrating the halo effect quite well. And I say that as one of those who wanted to see Farke practically have a job for life. Jennings is very much right in that Farke's gone, let's support the new man in charge. Who was on a hiding to nothing when he started with us as he had a struggling team in the top flight and no-one was coming in.

It's human nature to lionise the past, but it doesn't make it right. Is the football as stylish under Smith compared to Farke? Nope. But we're still missing two left-backs and an anchor man. We may have that piece in the building with Hayden, Gibbs, or even Lungi. And even with those problems, we're still finding ways to win games, even if it's often fairly nerve-wracking.

There's more to it than what I'm going to say here, but Farke's way of being on the front foot was possession, regardless of where it was. Smith's way is more territorial and pressing up there.

[Petriix 2,834]

It's a highly provocative article, more like the rantings of a drunken fan than a professional piece of journalism.

I'm really not sure why there needs to be such an obsession with everyone having to share the same opinions. It's infantile to reduce the level of the debate down to 'stop whingeing'. It's far more complicated than he's making out.

Farke had years of credit with the fans including 2 titles with record breaking points tallies. Dean Smith has had a decent 6 games and has come full circle to playing Farke's original game plan. It's perfectly reasonable to be cautious about him.

That doesn't mean we're writing him off either. It just takes time to build a relationship, especially with someone so uncharismatic. 

[Petriix 2,834]

13 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Jennings is very much right in that Farke's gone, let's support the new man in charge.

He didn't say that though. He said we were 'spoil', 'entitled' and 'greedy'. I'm happy to give Smith his due respect, which will continue to build if we remain successful. But 6 wins is not two titles. 

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

I support the manager of my football team especially when we are 2nd, on a streak of 6 wins & scoring for fun. For Farke see, Lambert, Worthington etc. No longer of any interest.

The constant talk about Farke is dull!

All my opinion of course...

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

4 minutes ago, Petriix said:

He didn't say that though. He said we were 'spoil', 'entitled' and 'greedy'. I'm happy to give Smith his due respect, which will continue to build if we remain successful. But 6 wins is not two titles. 

Between the lines, he very much did. By definition, if you're saying we have to move on from Farke, which he very much made explicit at the end of the article then we should be supportive (or at least neutral) of the new guy to start. Ultimately the Premier League spell was always going to be pretty much a write-off with no new players coming in.

Coming after Farke was always likely to be a poisoned chalice for the manager that took the job on. Coming after Farke and having a relegation practically built in was not likely to go down well with many fans and put him on the wrong foot as far as first impressions lasting. As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to passing judgement on Smith, we're still in the very early stages.

I do think some are letting that crappy Premier season as his start be a bit too much of a baseline to judge from.

Totally agree that his respect will grow if he continues this success, however I do wonder if some fans would still be critical from his beginnings or indeed the fact his style of football so far has not had the same style as prime Farkeball. Even then, prime Farkeball took close to 18 months to fully kick in, and that was all developed in the Champs.

[chicken 2,605]

12 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

It weren't an 'option', it was an obligation to make permanent upon promotion, same with Gibson.

Point still stands. I actually rate him, I just don't get how he was treated. 

[chicken 2,605]

44 minutes ago, Petriix said:

He didn't say that though. He said we were 'spoil', 'entitled' and 'greedy'. I'm happy to give Smith his due respect, which will continue to build if we remain successful. But 6 wins is not two titles. 

It's hard not to agree with though.

Many on here were pushing for Farke to be sacked and demanded a better coach. Now, when we have a coach from essentially a very similar pool of coaches, they act like they wish Farke was never sacked or think we could have done vastly better than Smith. Even over the summer. 

There have been some very spoilt, entitled and greedy views expressed here and on social media. We should have done x, y or z. Fewer quality players - even though several facts are out there to see we did try to do that first. 

Yet here we are. People still slating a manager, some of whom who helped to hasten his arrival and the end of his predecessor by being one of the baying crowd. 

[hogesar 9,618]

15 hours ago, KeiranShikari said:

People like Will Jennings and cambridgeshire canary use the straw man it as a way to dismiss opposing opinions.

To be fair, there's no need to create strawmen arguments when DS has just won 6 games in a row. Anyone who follows football understands how difficult it is to put that run together, and much better squads than us have failed to do so previously, despite being tipped for top.

[hogesar 9,618]

1 hour ago, Kenny Foggo said:

I support the manager of my football team especially when we are 2nd, on a streak of 6 wins & scoring for fun. For Farke see, Lambert, Worthington etc. No longer of any interest.

The constant talk about Farke is dull!

All my opinion of course...

We agree! 😮 

Farke was part of a special time here but, and maybe this point you won't agree with so much, but @TeemuVanBasten referenced it earlier - if Smith delivers us promotion it just shows either Smith is on a rough par with Farke or how well we've built the squad and infrastructure off the pitch to be able to so regularly challenge for promotion to the Premier League.

Edited September 16, 2022 by hogesar

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,738]

4 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

...and at a time where Farke had deemed Hernandez not good enough to be part of his plans for the whole season; seems a bit much to expect a new manager to walk in and randomly believe players out on loan he's never met will be the answer to all his prayers. 

By January he had already seen enough of Tzolis to know he wasnt ready..he could have recalled Hernandez in Jan to have a look at him and the loaned out at the end if the month if he wanted to. Instead his loan ended at Boro and he went straight to Birmingham at the start of Jan

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

22 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

By January he had already seen enough of Tzolis to know he wasnt ready..he could have recalled Hernandez in Jan to have a look at him and the loaned out at the end if the month if he wanted to. Instead his loan ended at Boro and he went straight to Birmingham at the start of Jan

All this relies on the fact that Hernandez is doing well now... at championship level with some new signings in the mix. The idea we'd still be in the premier League if only Hernandez had been recalled is a bit of a stretch.

Edited September 16, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[chicken 2,605]

1 hour ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

By January he had already seen enough of Tzolis to know he wasnt ready..he could have recalled Hernandez in Jan to have a look at him and the loaned out at the end if the month if he wanted to. Instead his loan ended at Boro and he went straight to Birmingham at the start of Jan

The way I saw it, which could well be wrong as it is complete conjecture, is that Smith had been working with Placheta for months already. Hernandez, on the other hand, had struggled for game time at Middlesbrough and not trained under Smith at all.

I suspect at that point Smith felt that Hernandez would really have to hit the ground running to help us. He'd have to pick up all of the things Smith wanted the team to do and get it straight away. Placheta was already there.

In hindsight there is also another factor, which you could arguably attach to Hugill as well. In that those two players are known to be decent championship level players. Although perhaps defeatist to some (probably the same that were saying we were relegated after the first five games) that by January, we were already looking heavily odds on to be relegated. Sometimes, perhaps it's best to keep players away from that if possible, so they're not tainted with it.

I think we have seen the benefits of that with Hugill and Hernandez. I don't think either could have single handidly transform us last season. Hernandez going forward may have made an impact, well, undoubtedly would, but enough to make up the points difference to staying up? No. Not for me.

Similar argument with Cantwell, he could have persisted, he clearly had tried to help him and felt that he could help him. The loan away, whilst not scintillating on Cantwell's behalf, has clearly helped him in terms of this season.

It's fair to say that Hernandez, Sinani, Cantwell and to lesser extents Hugill and McCallum have all been like new signings. Holding back Springett, Tomkinson, Gibbs and not putting so much pressure on Rowe is likely to have been a benefit too. 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,738]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

All this relies on the fact that Hernandez is doing well now... at championship level with some new signings in the mix. The idea we'd still be in the premier League if only Hernandez had been recalled is a bit of a stretch.

Not for one moment suggesting Hernandez would have made a difference to our chances of staying up but one thing's for sure is that when Smith was looking down his subs bench in the second half of the season he would have been a damned sight better option than Tzolis (when he was even on the bench), Placheta, Dowell or youngsters like Rowe and Springett

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

2 hours ago, chicken said:

Point still stands. I actually rate him, I just don't get how he was treated. 

Oh I agree, he was dropped like a hot stone after being torn apart for 45 minutes by arguably the best team in the world at the time, by two right sided players who cost them something like £130m combined. It was brutal.

He is also one who seems to be playing with more confidence under Dean Smith. 

I think Farke had a very rigid managerial style and very little pragmatism, and some players respond well to that style and some very badly and regress. The problem is when you are investing a huge amount on a player, a club our size can't afford for them to disposed into a Farke write-off pile within 6-8 weeks. 

His reaction to Tsoliz doing something silly with that penalty was OTT as well, it was a silly thing to do but he's just a young kid. 

Plus his tendency to criticise players publicly was out of order.

The Tsoliz thing should have been him being called out in the dressing room, told he's getting fined half a weeks wages, then a pat on the back and "don't do it again", forgotten about on Monday morning in training. Paul Lambert was good at keeping things in the dressing room.

Farke did a great job here but had some character flaws and I'm sure he'll have a good career, but I honestly can't see him ever being seen as an elite manager because he's not a unifier or pragmatic enough. Farke was a bit of a tyrant.

Ironically I think Dean Smith is a bit too far the other way, a bit too nice and passive. I know he went downhill after leaving us, but Lambert had the right balance in his 3 years here, perfect man management and squad management whilst still keeping players at arms length, not being too pally with the players and still commanding that slight degree of respect because he took no nonsense.

Edited September 16, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[Petriix 2,834]

3 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

I do wonder if some fans would still be critical from his beginnings or indeed the fact his style of football so far has not had the same style as prime Farkeball. Even then, prime Farkeball took close to 18 months to fully kick in, and that was all developed in the Champs.

I'm happy to admit that I had doubts about Farke up until about this point in his second season. I recall us having serious defensive frailties which stemmed from a flawed midfield system.

Not long after that we settled on the 4-2-3-1 and Farkeball emerged in all its glory. I'm open minded. 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,131]

A lot of people only want to remember the good times with Farke and how we played when we had the ball, I remember that and look back on it fondly, I also remember the bad games and how we played without the ball. He was a brilliant manager and will have a great career but with his style of football and the profile of player he likes we would never be able to stay in the PL under him unless we threw hundreds of millions at it which isn't going to happen here. A lot of people fail to see how the game has moved on in the last 7 or 8 years at the top level moving more towards fast, direct, high intensity football that emphasizes creating chances through transitions and exploiting set pieces with fast, physical players and it moved in that direction as a way to counter the then trend of playing a possession game like that one Farke likes to employ. 

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the fans still pining for Farke would also like to see us stay up for a few seasons and aren't happy yo-yoing between the divisions but you can't have your cake and eat it in this case, with our budget or anything that isn't a near bottomless pit of money that's just not possible. If you were happy with that and just wanted to see us play a certain style of football and weren't worried about winning games at the top level then I understand your frustration at the direction we're moving in but I'd be willing to bet most would like to see us have a better crack at staying up.

Things aren't perfect under Smith now certainly, but he's still working with a team that for the most part was built carefully over 4 seasons to play Farke's style and it's clear to me that the core of our team isn't really suited to how Smith wants to play yet so we're looking disjointed and it's not clicking like we'd all like, but we're getting there and I like some of the things I'm seeing, I'm seeing signs in how we play that the penny has finally dropped and we're starting to build for a style of play that would be more effective if we get promoted again. 

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

9 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

...and at a time where Farke had deemed Hernandez not good enough to be part of his plans for the whole season; seems a bit much to expect a new manager to walk in and randomly believe players out on loan he's never met will be the answer to all his prayers. 

He's obviously never read this message board then,, because that is exactly what he should have done. 

[dylanisabaddog 4,876]

Plum? 

[KeiranShikari 1,410]

6 hours ago, Kenny Foggo said:

I support the manager of my football team especially when we are 2nd, on a streak of 6 wins & scoring for fun. For Farke see, Lambert, Worthington etc. No longer of any interest.

The constant talk about Farke is dull!

All my opinion of course...

Most of the talk about Farke this season has been from those reminding everyone that he's gone.

People comment that they want rhythm and structure in their Norwich team and that's taken as pining for Farke.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

7 hours ago, KeiranShikari said:

Most of the talk about Farke this season has been from those reminding everyone that he's gone.

People comment that they want rhythm and structure in their Norwich team and that's taken as pining for Farke.

I wouldn’t care who we had as manager if we played football in an agreeable way. A lot will say it’s a results business but I think to the modern fan it’s as much about how you win as that you do win. 
 

One thing I wish was more clear from Dean Smith and his side was how they wish to play football. His footballing philosophy if you will as he’s been here almost a year now and I’ve no idea how he wants us to play. We give the ball around far too easily in my mind, I’d like to see better ball retention and a more urgent press once the ball is lost earlier. Engagement further away from your own goal can only be a good thing in my book. I fear when we play better sides we will get more found out. WBA tomorrow will be a good test of how good this team is. 

[yellowrider120 761]

On 15/09/2022 at 20:33, Chelm Canary said:

The impression I got from Farke, which started after the banishing of Leitner without explanation is that he's a little unhinged. That continued with other players and he even had Klose banished from the training with the first team towards the end. 

I think any perceived slight on Farke would result in an extreme response from him that he felt he didn't have to explain to anyone and the board clearly allowed that to continue for a period of time until the results no longer made sense to take that approach. 

His negativity in interviews in building up other teams and playing down our chances made the whole thing even more bizarre.

 

Agreed - but to many on here Farke was (and still is) an absolute God who could do no wrong.  The fact that nearly one year after he left the pages of this forum seem to be rammed with Farke posts illustrates the obsession that persists. We have just won SIX games on the bounce yet Smith receives only muttered and reluctant credit with most fans mumbling about the 'poor quality of the league' rather than giving the players any plaudits. Now Smith only adds fuel to the fire by very rarely going on to the pitch to acknowledge the fans. Whatever he achieves it will NEVER be enough in the eyes of many fans and that is a dangerous cocktail of negativity.  

[astro 358]

And I think @yellowrider120 that cocktail is shown by the dreadful atmosphere at games. 

[Capt. Pants 4,202]

37 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

Agreed - but to many on here Farke was (and still is) an absolute God who could do no wrong.  The fact that nearly one year after he left the pages of this forum seem to be rammed with Farke posts illustrates the obsession that persists. We have just won SIX games on the bounce yet Smith receives only muttered and reluctant credit with most fans mumbling about the 'poor quality of the league' rather than giving the players any plaudits. Now Smith only adds fuel to the fire by very rarely going on to the pitch to acknowledge the fans. Whatever he achieves it will NEVER be enough in the eyes of many fans and that is a dangerous cocktail of negativity.  

I agree with a lot of this but I'm one of those who has a 'middling' view of Smith. It's really not necessary to have to love the manager to be a true supporter. It's similar to how I felt with most managers over the years. As long as the club is successful as it can be that's the main thing.

Interestingly in the interview with Mark Attanasio he barely mentions the coach, otherthan briefly towards the end, and even then not by name.

If you have a manager with that special blend of success and engagement, then great. Dean Smith is anywhere near there yet, even with his bosses, but it's not hugely important so long as the players get it.

 

[percy varco 196]

On 15/09/2022 at 20:42, Tony DaWonderful said:

Hope you're right TVB... just with slight less feeling

Smith Out. 

[First Wazzock 902]

Will Jennings what?