McLean McLean McLean

[Yellow Wal 314]

The number of people who complain about McLean regardless of how he plays astounds and, at times, annoys me.

I am not a Kenny lover. In fact I feel we need better if we do achieve promotion but lets give credit where it is due on occasions.

Yes, he is not a DM. In fact the last time we were promoted he played in the midfield with Olly Skipp, who is a DM, but, at the moment we do not have a DM so the manager calls on Kenny.

Before Byram regained fitness we didn't have a left back so the manager called on Kenny. 

Then we look at tonight's match. Pukki scored our first goal after a free kick. Who spotted a one on one and quickly took a long, accurate ball, yes Mclean. The second goal, a through ball from Ramsay to Pukki after an interception. Who anticipated the Bristol pass and made the interception? Right again, McLean.

But he couldn't have anything to do with Sarge's goal could he? Look again. A positive run takes away Weimann to allow Sarge the room for his header, that was McLean again.

But all he seems to get on this forum, from most people, is criticism. 

When he plays badly and contributes nothing I have no problem but he seems to be on a hiding to nothing every game.

[Ken Hairy 3,757]

So you've moaned about the criticism of Kenny, then gone on to make all the same complaints about him those you're moaning about did?? 

[sonyc 5,484]

Well he is picked out again and again on this forum. So often the scapegoat. Last night I felt his performance was actually very decent. One poor pass late on the match.

It's weird that although he is picked out many weeks on this forum, both Farke and Smith have picked him as a constant for the last two years. Ultimately I have to trust their judgement. He is a solid pro and has shown adaptability for years, especially at Championship level. Happy to have him. Let's face it you'd have to say this may be his last year with us if we are promoted. Reading between the lines in the EDP too it looks like Pukki's last season.

If we go up the team will have a much different complexion in next year's PL. I'm just enjoyong what we have now. McLean always gives effort.

Edited September 15, 2022 by sonyc

[shefcanary 2,377]

1 minute ago, sonyc said:

Well he is picked out again and again on this forum. So often the scapegoat. Last night I felt his performance was actually very decent. One poor pass late on the match.

It's weird that although he is picked out many weeks on this forum, both Farke and Smith have picked him as a constant for the last two years. Ultimately I have to trust their judgement. He is a solid pro and has shown adaptability for years. Happy to have him. Let's face it you'd have to say this may be his last year with us if we are promoted. Reading between the lines in the EDP too it looks like Pukki's last season.

If we go up the team will have a much different complexion on next year's PL. I'm just enjoyong what we have now. McLean always gives effort.

He was ****ing anonymous at the crucial point of the game, providing no screening or protection of the back four. That was, albeit not his preferred position, what his main job was last night. Nunez and Sara can do all the positive things as well he did last night, he just failed to do what was required of him. He is a square peg in a round hole and there is no round hole for him! 

This is why he has become the scapegoat, pure frustration from fans on here who understand where our main problem is and have done for years. Sure, perhaps the criticism should be aimed at the management, especially Webber for buying a crocked CDM who if fully fit could ensure Kenny didn't start in the first place.

Kenny is the main symptom of why we have been so poor in the EPL, he really should be ditched if we get promoted this season, to demonstrate true progress and understanding of the job in hand.

Nothing personal - rant over!

[sonyc 5,484]

14 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

He was ****ing anonymous at the crucial point of the game, providing no screening or protection of the back four. That was, albeit not his preferred position, what his main job was last night. Nunez and Sara can do all the positive things as well he did last night, he just failed to do what was required of him. He is a square peg in a round hole and there is no round hole for him! 

This is why he has become the scapegoat, pure frustration from fans on here who understand where our main problem is and have done for years. Sure, perhaps the criticism should be aimed at the management, especially Webber for buying a crocked CDM who if fully fit could ensure Kenny didn't start in the first place.

Kenny is the main symptom of why we have been so poor in the EPL, he really should be ditched if we get promoted this season, to demonstrate true progress and understanding of the job in hand.

Nothing personal - rant over!

None taken. Fine by me. And he wouldn't be in my starting 11 for most weeks! Also I stated he isn't up to being a PL player. I just feel it's easier to pick out a player and then feel vindicated when he doesn't do what you want him to do, rather than the other way round. I used to be like that with Marco Stiepermann. He used to frustrate me (too slow) and yet he did some great things. In the end I developed a grudging respect. I watched Kenny at Hull and he made a couple of surging runs, one covering for Max for example. I've felt this season he has actually been better than the last Championship campaign (so far). Weird what we all see. Yet, I do tend to focus more of my analysis in watching live on midfield - it's where I always think games are won and lost. It dictates momentum so much. McLean's first inclination is nearly always forward (watch him) - certainly NOT a CDM. Frustrating? Definitely. But he puts the effort in and is committed to NCFC Shef. Sara and Nunez will be taking his place by the end of the season.

Might we see him with a mayor's hat on for one last time though?🙂

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,504]

1 hour ago, Yellow Wal said:

The number of people who complain about McLean regardless of how he plays astounds and, at times, annoys me.

I am not a Kenny lover. In fact I feel we need better if we do achieve promotion but lets give credit where it is due on occasions.

Yes, he is not a DM. In fact the last time we were promoted he played in the midfield with Olly Skipp, who is a DM, but, at the moment we do not have a DM so the manager calls on Kenny.

Before Byram regained fitness we didn't have a left back so the manager called on Kenny. 

Then we look at tonight's match. Pukki scored our first goal after a free kick. Who spotted a one on one and quickly took a long, accurate ball, yes Mclean. The second goal, a through ball from Ramsay to Pukki after an interception. Who anticipated the Bristol pass and made the interception? Right again, McLean.

But he couldn't have anything to do with Sarge's goal could he? Look again. A positive run takes away Weimann to allow Sarge the room for his header, that was McLean again.

But all he seems to get on this forum, from most people, is criticism. 

When he plays badly and contributes nothing I have no problem but he seems to be on a hiding to nothing every game.

I think McLean's problem is that no matter how how hard he works or how well he does, he's the mayor, but nobody voted for him...

Edited September 15, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[nutty nigel 7,507]

So the criticism of Kenny is based around us needing better in the PL. We are not in the PL. We may never be in the PL again. Criticism should surely be based on his current performance level. He was really good last night. 

[Fr. Chewy Louie 137]

6 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

nobody voted for him...

Lot of it about

[shefcanary 2,377]

6 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

So the criticism of Kenny is based around us needing better in the PL. We are not in the PL. We may never be in the PL again. Criticism should surely be based on his current performance level. He was really good last night. 

Sod the getting back to the EPL, I am talking about the here and now. He played a couple of good balls thankfully for us, but really the rest of the time in his main rule of giving protection to the back four and showing for a pass out to occupy their attacking press, he was anonymous. And those were the main parts of his job last night! 

I say again he is a square peg in a round hole, with no round hole ever likely to be found for him in the current set up. Until he no longer starts matches for us on a regular basis, we will not have cracked our midfield conundrum. Sure, defend his "adaptiveness", but really last night the majority of our problems stemmed from his total unsuitability for the task. If he cannot do the role he is asked of but still plays week in and week out, we are not making any progress in the Championship, let alone the EPL!

And yes, I know we won last night, but that was more by luck than judgement; we won't get that much luck in future games.

[Thumbbass 318]

I think a lot of the frustration stems from the fact that he's picking the ball up 5-10 yards from our penalty box in a central area, a misplaced pass, poor control or other mistake in this area always looks and feels 10x worse, it definitely puts him in the spotlight. Where Nunez tends to pivot under pressure and try to play forward, Kenny plays the way he faces and often this is a sideways or backward ball which doesn't relieve the pressure. He was OK last night and made some telling contributions. He was no more sloppy than Nunez.

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,131]

Was one of our better players last night imo, the issue was so many players around him having a poor game. Hanley was ill or injured so his distribution was really poor, Byram is still rusty having had no pre season, Nunez and Ramsay had poor games after the first 20 mins, Cantwell and Sargent wern't showing for the ball enough and all that alongside Bristol pressing us really high meant he was always going to have a really tough night.

In this league if you stick McLean in a 3 where he doesn't have to be the forward thinking option (Nunez) or the defensive option (Hayden) and can just focus on linking the play and getting up and down the pitch he's a great player. The issue is he's having to be our defensive minded option right now and eventhough he really tries he's just not very good at it.

From what I saw of Sara last night he won the ball back quite a few times from deep, maybe in the next game he can replace Ramsay and offer us more of a defensive screen and the midfield will look a lot more balanced. 

[Ken Hairy 3,757]

13 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

So the criticism of Kenny is based around us needing better in the PL. We are not in the PL. We may never be in the PL again. Criticism should surely be based on his current performance level. He was really good last night. 

No, we need better than him...... IN THE HOLDING ROLE..... at Championship level. 

[shefcanary 2,377]

Just now, Thumbbass said:

he's picking the ball up 5-10 yards from our penalty box in a central area

He wasn't last night. He totally abrogated responsibility for that!

[Number9 272]

His job last night appeared to be defensive midfielder. 

He's shoite!

[nutty nigel 7,507]

2 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Sod the getting back to the EPL, I am talking about the here and now. He played a couple of good balls thankfully for us, but really the rest of the time in his main rule of giving protection to the back four and showing for a pass out to occupy their attacking press, he was anonymous. And those were the main parts of his job last night! 

I say again he is a square peg in a round hole, with no round hole ever likely to be found for him in the current set up. Until he no longer starts matches for us on a regular basis, we will not have cracked our midfield conundrum. Sure, defend his "adaptiveness", but really last night the majority of our problems stemmed from his total unsuitability for the task. If he cannot do the role he is asked of but still plays week in and week out, we are not making any progress in the Championship, let alone the EPL!

And yes, I know we won last night, but that was more by luck than judgement; we won't get that much luck in future games.

I didn't see what you saw. I think the criticism last night is entirely based on views of a player rather than his actual performance. Anonymous is a strange one. What was he doing to be anonymous? He was the opposite to anonymous. Where were all the mistakes and missed passes? 

I get he's not the player you want him to be but he was fine last night.

 

[nutty nigel 7,507]

13 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

No, we need better than him...... IN THE HOLDING ROLE..... at Championship level. 

But we have better. Or I assume we have. Both are injured.

 

 

[Ken Hairy 3,757]

5 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

But we have better. Or I assume we have. Both are injured.

 

 

Both? Hayden (do we know he's better?) and??? 

[nutty nigel 7,507]

1 minute ago, Ken Hairy said:

Both? Hayden (do we know he's better?) and??? 

That's why I said 'I assume'. 

Liam Gibbs has certainly been our best in that role this season. 

With both out who plays there if not Kenny?

[shefcanary 2,377]

8 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I didn't see what you saw. I think the criticism last night is entirely based on views of a player rather than his actual performance. Anonymous is a strange one. What was he doing to be anonymous? He was the opposite to anonymous. Where were all the mistakes and missed passes? 

I get he's not the player you want him to be but he was fine last night.

It happens two people can watch the same thing and have different viewpoints. My criticism of his passing is not that they were inaccurate, there weren't enough of them for the role he was playing in. As I've said, he should be showing more when we have the ball at the back, that was when he was anonymous. I have not commented until this response on his passing. Others may have, but that was not my criticism of him last night. He's good at pointing to others to do things (and I realise this a cheap shot) but he should be doing more himself before doing that!

[Ken Hairy 3,757]

3 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

That's why I said 'I assume'. 

Liam Gibbs has certainly been our best in that role this season. 

With both out who plays there if not Kenny?

Gibbs is not a natural CDM, he's wasted playing there, but yes better than Kenny. 

A lot of people missing the point, it's not slating Kenny it's slating the recruitment that as you rightly suggest with your last comment we have to play him there even though he's a mile off being equipped to do so. I said when we signed Hayden, brilliant but still need another natural CDM to come in, that didn't happen and here we are debating Kenny again. 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Ken Hairy

[Jim Smith 2,314]

I agree.

I'm bemonaing the absence of other options more than the presence of Kenny although I do think a player of his experience should be capable of playing the CDM role more effectively than he does at times. 

He's a good player, never lets us down, can cover several positions and is a good character in the dressing room. Its not his fault that our squad is left threadbare in certain positions or that we suffer injuries meaning he has to play every game. 

[Thumbbass 318]

25 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

He wasn't last night. He totally abrogated responsibility for that!

I'm not so sure. I had Radio Norfolk in my ears at half time and they were talking about how Bristol had focussed their press on Kenny, Hanley and Krul, so second half it was more on my radar and he was indeed dropping off to pick up the ball and Bristol were onto him like flies on shi...npads. 

[nutty nigel 7,507]

5 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Gibbs is not a natural CDM, he's wasted playing there, but yes better than Kenny. 

A lot of people missing the point, it's not slating Kenny it's slating the recruitment that as you rightly suggest with your last comment we have to play him there even though he's a mile off being equipped to do so. I said when we signed Hayden, brilliant but still need another natural CDM to come in, that didn't happen and here we are debating Kenny again. 

So has this criticism of Kenny's performance last night got anything to do with Kenny's performance last night?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I have no complaints about Kenny's ability. He is the same one we bought over four season ago. But he is playing a role not suited to him. If he is pressed and that is what teams try and do to a DM, then he has to pass it. That isn't his strength. I like the Kenny who spots the spaces to run into with the ball, attract other players and lay it off.

Coaches are not daft. They know our tactics now and the shortcomings in our setup. Luckily, we have enough talent to overcome the difficulties.

Edited September 15, 2022 by keelansgrandad

[nutty nigel 7,507]

11 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

It happens two people can watch the same thing and have different viewpoints. My criticism of his passing is not that they were inaccurate, there weren't enough of them for the role he was playing in. As I've said, he should be showing more when we have the ball at the back, that was when he was anonymous. I have not commented until this response on his passing. Others may have, but that was not my criticism of him last night. He's good at pointing to others to do things (and I realise this a cheap shot) but he should be doing more himself before doing that!

Just checked. 55 passes last night. 80% accurate. That's the player I saw.

[shefcanary 2,377]

1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

Just checked. 55 passes last night. 80% accurate. That's the player I saw.

And he really in the position he was playing in been up above the 80 mark! I've just checked all my posts on passing accuracy, and my only comment on that until the last post, was that he made two very good passes. So I have not commented about the accuracy of his passing, but he really should have been making 1 a minute in the position he was playing in, that old metronomic CDM attribute evidenced by Skipp. Not quite anonymous I'll accept, but evidently only doing two thirds of the job he needed to do to really help out the defence.

Thanks for proving my point. 😉 

[nutty nigel 7,507]

4 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

And he really in the position he was playing in been up above the 80 mark! I've just checked all my posts on passing accuracy, and my only comment on that until the last post, was that he made two very good passes. So I have not commented about the accuracy of his passing, but he really should have been making 1 a minute in the position he was playing in, that old metronomic CDM attribute evidenced by Skipp. Not quite anonymous I'll accept, but evidently only doing two thirds of the job he needed to do to really help out the defence.

Thanks for proving my point. 😉 

1 a minute?

You are cracking me up Sheff 😂 

The only cm who made more passes last night was Alex Scott with 56.

 

[hogesar 9,611]

I'll quote my post from another thread.

According to every stat site, Kenny was one of the best players on the pitch. According to Bristol fans, he was one of our better players. According to the few pundit / journalist reports, he was one of the better players.

But the same posters on here pick him out as the problem, despite there being a host of player who performed worse than him in pretty much every available metric.

This really is evidence of fans seeing what they want to see as opposed to being objective. And it happens time and time again with certain players.

It's quite funny to read, especially when you then realise that Farke and his coaching team thought Kenny should start every game. I remember reading how at least a change of manager would mean Mclean would be dropped for someone 'much better' like Sorensen. Funnily enough, Dean Smith and Shakey saw the same things Farke saw.

  

47 minutes ago, hogesar said:

With all the usual caveats attached to stats, WhoScored has Kenny as the third best player on the pitch last night, with a 7.6, so not far away from this 8/10 @norfolkngood is after! 😉

Before I continue, let me say I really like Nunez and think he'll be an important player for us. But if there's ever been a case of pre-conception and deciding on a players performance by seeing what you want to see then this is a clear example. You've seen this thread and others criticise Kenny on here, when his midfield partner is the one who's error directly led to a goal, giving the ball away on the edge of the area.

Kenny also got an assist and had a higher pass % than Nunez, giving it away less. And yesterday wasn't an example of Nunez hitting lots of long balls where you expect the % to be lower, either.

We also had Byram caught up the pitch / out of position and Hanley with a shoulder injury meaning Kenny was also doing the work of covering the left area of the pitch at times, combined with Nunez more 'wandering' style it's not really surprising they got through our midfield pretty regularly. That did improve when Smith matched them up some minutes before halftime.

 

[shefcanary 2,377]

7 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

1 a minute?

You are cracking me up Sheff 😂 

The only cm who made more passes last night was Alex Scott with 56.

 

I'm glad I am amusing you.

Scott was playing in a team that were playing in a different way last night. If we were to be truly at our best last night, we needed a CDM who was showing for the ball and making quick, but short passes, between himself and the back four and / or the more attacking midfielders.  On average over a whole game that would be one a minute (look at that role in the best teams), although I accpet most of those would have been in quick bursts with a few 1-2's, many sideways and back. The key though is he would have been taking the pressure off the back four and Krul!

I see it one way, you see it another; there are from my review quite a few who would support both our views on McLean on here, but the overall conclusion is that we'd prefer McLean not playing in that CDM role.  As I've said elsewhere, there is a club who McLean could play for and he would be absolutely well suited to it, probably being man of the match most games. But that club isn't Norwich, he tries to do his best for us, but he is symptomatic of why many of us on here see little chance of us meeting our aspirations whilst he continues to play for us. 

Carry on laughing Nutty, I know I am not going to convince you, it's just I fail to see what you want to be convinced of?

[hogesar 9,611]

27 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

And he really in the position he was playing in been up above the 80 mark! I've just checked all my posts on passing accuracy, and my only comment on that until the last post, was that he made two very good passes. So I have not commented about the accuracy of his passing, but he really should have been making 1 a minute in the position he was playing in, that old metronomic CDM attribute evidenced by Skipp. Not quite anonymous I'll accept, but evidently only doing two thirds of the job he needed to do to really help out the defence.

Thanks for proving my point. 😉 

 

20 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

1 a minute?

You are cracking me up Sheff 😂 

The only cm who made more passes last night was Alex Scott with 56.

 

1 a minute is an odd requirement or measure.

Jorginho for Chelsea only made 59 passes last night in 90 minutes

Skipp averaged 55 passes for us in the Championship. The same amount that Kennys now being criticised for...